John Leslie Trial - Accused of touching woman's bum in nightclub

Losty Dublin · 21-06-2018 12:05AM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

No idea of his guilt or innocence in this, but I do know his filming of his famous " home movie" was substandard. A crime against pornography.

"Blue" Peter?

21-06-2018 02:28AM

kylith wrote: »

Here's an idea: check if it's ok before putting your hand down someone's underwear.

Maybe a consent form on black paper written in UV ink? Get one of the bouncers' stamps then to make it real official like.

Outlaw Pete · 21-06-2018 03:36AM

kylith wrote: »

Here's an idea: check if it's ok before putting your hand down someone's underwear.

---

She said Mr Leslie touched her skin but she was not sure if he put his hand beneath her underwear.

RacoonQueen · 21-06-2018 06:58AM

Maybe it wasn't reported well by the journalist but this seems a little...extreme. Must be pretty crappy for 'famous' men as everything they do seems to be put down as sexual assault / harassment. Some men do and say inappropriate things regularly, so do some women...you tell them its inappropriate / tell them to go f*ck themselves. Going to court over it is a little extreme.

Based on a lot of these stories there is not one woman out there who hasn't been sexually assaulted numerous times, which is a little insulting to people who have actually had traumatic experiences.

edit: More here so he told er 'careful you're getting married' so probably thought she was coming on to him. CCTV footage goes not show a friend intervening.

ash23 · 21-06-2018 07:21AM

He put his hand into her trousers. Possibly over her underwear, possibly under.

How anyone thinks it's ok to ask someone to dance and without any encouragement from them to take it further (like a kiss) to just stick their hand down your trousers?

Just because it was a niteclub doesn't mean it was ok. Women and men don't sign away their right to not be groped when they enter a bar or club.

The sooner people stop downplaying this kind of crap the sooner it will stop. She consented to dance with him. That doesn't automatically give him the right to put his hand up her top, down her trousers or anywhere else.
Should it end up in court? I'm not sure. It seems a bit extreme but then again, if it's just dismissed as a rejection he will carry on behaving that way.
He will get a slap on the wrist if found guilty. But at least it will show society that this kind of behaviour is not at all acceptable and not just harmless flirtation

ConnyMcDavid · 21-06-2018 07:31AM

He's not going to be found guilty. Already a proven lie/exaggeration in the story. She said her friends dragged her away from him but video shows she left voluntarily.

nullzero · 21-06-2018 07:39AM

ash23 wrote: »

He put his hand into her trousers. Possibly over her underwear, possibly under.

How anyone thinks it's ok to ask someone to dance and without any encouragement from them to take it further (like a kiss) to just stick their hand down your trousers?

Just because it was a niteclub doesn't mean it was ok. Women and men don't sign away their right to not be groped when they enter a bar or club.

The sooner people stop downplaying this kind of crap the sooner it will stop. She consented to dance with him. That doesn't automatically give him the right to put his hand up her top, down her trousers or anywhere else.
Should it end up in court? I'm not sure. It seems a bit extreme but then again, if it's just dismissed as a rejection he will carry on behaving that way.
He will get a slap on the wrist if found guilty. But at least it will show society that this kind of behaviour is not at all acceptable and not just harmless flirtation

How to we implement ways of dealing with people not seeking permission for a kiss?
Should we have people sign consent forms witnessed by independent adjudicators prior to a dance?

The thing is that downplaying this type of crap is exactly what should be done. When an adult enters a nightclub they are in an environment where other people are present many of whom are attempting to pick up another person. If you dance closely with somebody there is a chance they might attempt to kiss you etc... We are all aware of this, we don't need our hands held walking into these places and we are all old enough to know what goes on in them.
What is described in this case is a man making an advance and being denied, had he perused the situation he would have changed the dynamic to where he was actively engaging in harassment and would deserve to be punished.
Saying this type of situation needs to be brought through court just to give somebody a slap on the wrist is completely out of touch with reality, do you invision a world in which all such situations are dealt with in this manner? Do you understand how ridiculous that notion is?

padser · 21-06-2018 07:47AM

ash23 wrote: »

He will get a slap on the wrist if found guilty. But at least it will show society that this kind of behaviour is not at all acceptable and not just harmless flirtation

That's a pretty cavalier attitude to a man being convicted of sexual assault which could carry a prison sentence. Particularly given you admit your own uncertainty over whether he has done something worthy of ending up in court.

I certainly wouldn't regard it as a "slap on the wrist" if I was convicted of it.

Men convicted of sexual offences are rightly stripped of their reputations. The fact this is going to happen means that two things really need to be true

1) the offence should be worthy of that repercussion
2) the offence should be proved beyond reasonable doubt

Based on the OP - it's really difficult to believe either of those are true here.

razorblunt · 21-06-2018 07:53AM

I've seen him out and about Edinburgh alright, hitting on anything at the bar.
The wife came back from the bar one night saying "why do I know yer man?". I told her who he was and she replied "he's a bit of a creep".

Hanging around the bride on a hen though. With his profile too!

Tigger · 21-06-2018 07:54AM

ash23 wrote: »

If it were a workplace and someone hugged a person and slipped their hand into their trousers would that be ok? We should just shrug it off?
Why should we accept someone over stepping the mark in a bar or a club?

Clubs are the absolute pits for this kind of stuff. Being pinned against walls, having your attempt to get to the bar or toilet blocked by someone who won't take no for an answer, actively struggling to get away from someone.
But that's all deemed as fine because you chose to go there so you must be looking for something? It is acceptable?
Nope, sorry, will never think that kind of behaviour is ok.

Did he do any of those things ?

Canis Lupus · 21-06-2018 07:57AM

ash23 wrote: »

He put his hand into her trousers. Possibly over her underwear, possibly under.

How anyone thinks it's ok to ask someone to dance and without any encouragement from them to take it further (like a kiss) to just stick their hand down your trousers?

Just because it was a niteclub doesn't mean it was ok. Women and men don't sign away their right to not be groped when they enter a bar or club.

The sooner people stop downplaying this kind of crap the sooner it will stop. She consented to dance with him. That doesn't automatically give him the right to put his hand up her top, down her trousers or anywhere else.
Should it end up in court? I'm not sure. It seems a bit extreme but then again, if it's just dismissed as a rejection he will carry on behaving that way.
He will get a slap on the wrist if found guilty. But at least it will show society that this kind of behaviour is not at all acceptable and not just harmless flirtation

Weird... I've had cases where I was dancing, woman comes up, dances closer, hands go places during the dance, you score. I mean.... that's how it works. But that's sexual assault in your eyes..... I'm glad I'm well out of the dating game. I'd want to bring a solicitor and 2 witnesses with camera it seems nowadays.

Olsky · 21-06-2018 08:12AM

kylith wrote: »

Here's an idea: check if it's ok before putting your hand down someone's underwear.

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe a consent form on black paper written in UV ink? Get one of the bouncers' stamps then to make it real official like.

The exact action being consented to would also have to be specified on the form. In the it s case ,"touching bum" Breathalyzer tests would also be required before the dance to ensure that it was "informed" consent.

Canis Lupus · 21-06-2018 08:12AM

ash23 wrote: »

No I don't believe that is how it works. I don't remember anyone ever going from dancing to hands down pants.
It was usually dancing, getting closer, going in for a kiss and either bring rejected or getting the kiss. Then maybe after a bit of kissing a hand might wander lower and either get the green light or the red.

Someone sticking their hand down your trousers straight off the bat is just plain aggressive and unwarranted.

So we have different life experiences. What a crazy world we live in.

nullzero · 21-06-2018 08:18AM

ash23 wrote: »

No I don't believe that is how it works. I don't remember anyone ever going from dancing to hands down pants.
It was usually dancing, getting closer, going in for a kiss and either bring rejected or getting the kiss. Then maybe after a bit of kissing a hand might wander lower and either get the green light or the red.

Someone sticking their hand down your trousers straight off the bat is just plain aggressive and unwarranted.

You don't remember?
Seriously, you need to get real.
This notion of petty issues like this being treated as sexual assault and being brought through the judicial system is ridiculous.
As for arguing that if it happened in an office what would the response be, I have heard some weak arguments in my time but this is particularly poor. We also have a vague understanding of the time line involved here so making assumptions that things happened straight off the bat is potentially inaccurate as well.

nullzero · 21-06-2018 08:24AM

ash23 wrote: »

So one woman might want your advances. Another woman might not. If you stick your hands down someone's trousers and that person does not want that to happen, you're leaving yourself open to exactly what happened here.

No man or woman should stick their hands down anyone elses trousers without knowing that attention is warranted. It's pretty straightforward really.

I'm not saying this is what happened. That's up to a court to decide

But for those saying it's too extreme, how should we then deal with men or women who grope or grab people inappropriately? Just let them move on to the next person who doesn't want their advances? As long as it's not me it's ok?

You've convinced me, let's get all people who touch inappropriately up in front of a judge right away, there is no other logical way of dealing with this epidemic.

ash23 · 21-06-2018 08:24AM

nullzero wrote: »

You don't remember?
Seriously, you need to get real.
This notion of petty issues like this being treated as sexual assault and being brought through the judicial system is ridiculous.
As for arguing that if it happened in an office what would the response be, I have heard some weak arguments in my time but this is particularly poor. We also have a vague understanding of the time line involved here so making assumptions that things happened straight off the bat is potentially inaccurate as well.

She was talking to him. Then she agreed to dance with him. Then he put his hands inside of her trousers. Whether she danced with him for ten seconds or ten minutes, it's a bit much to go from dancing to hand down trousers without any preamble.

ash23 · 21-06-2018 08:26AM

nullzero wrote: »

You've convinced me, let's get all people who touch inappropriately up in front of a judge right away, there is no other logical way of dealing with this epidemic.

That's not an answer. How do we deal with it if not through the courts? Ignore it?
On the spot fine? Or the person who was touched when they didn't want to be just chalks it up to something acceptable?

ceadaoin. · 21-06-2018 08:28AM

PSA -Most women in a nightclub would not like a man they've just met to stick his hands down her pants, even if she has previously been dancing with him. If this constitutes part of your flirting routine then you might want to rethink that.

How is randomly groping women like this not being a sex pest? I mean the strike rate must be pretty high. As someone said earlier, do they just keep trying women until someone doesn't push them away?

I don't know about going to court with it but it's pretty dire behaviour that should stop really

nullzero · 21-06-2018 08:32AM

ash23 wrote: »

That's not an answer. How do we deal with it if not through the courts? Ignore it?
On the spot fine? Or the person who was touched when they didn't want to be just chalks it up to something acceptable?

The person it happened to in this case got away from the man in question. I have been touched inappropriately by women and yes I have had to chalk it up to being unacceptable, and anecdotally I've had women do things in the workplace as well which I've had to say I wasn't happy with and move past.
Going to court for this type of thing is not realistic in every case and I think you should realise that even though you are re arguing for it.
Real sexual assault cases deserve to not be trivialized by this nonsense.

nullzero · 21-06-2018 08:41AM

ash23 wrote: »

So something is wrong and not acceptable. But we should just ignore it and of anyone chooses to not ignore it, they are vilified and told they should just put up with it. And the person continues to do it because they can.

So while court might seem excessive, that is the legal system. It's how we decide if someone did something wrong and if they should be punished for it.
If there is another way that offers a better solution and isn't "ignore it" I'm all for it.

When it happens the person it happens to says it isn't acceptable, that is how human interaction works.
You are proposing a situation in which the criminal courts should be full of cases of people groping in nightclubs which will clog up the judicial system and prevent real criminals from being prosecuted, including sexual offenders.
You need to realize the gravity of what you are proposing and realize that people do have to make their own stand on such relatively trivial issues. You aren't proposing something that can be implemented so I would like to hear a real solution from you instead of you taking the moral high ground and pontificating ad naseum about wanting other solutions.

irelandrover · 21-06-2018 08:44AM

In this case hasnt teh woman already proved to have lied, saying she was dragged away by a friend and the CCTV shows she left.

What happens to her in this case. Does she get prosecuted for perjury?

Canis Lupus · 21-06-2018 08:49AM

irelandrover wrote: »

In this case hasnt teh woman already proved to have lied, saying she was dragged away by a friend and the CCTV shows she left.

What happens to her in this case. Does she get prosecuted for perjury?

pffft of course not. Her identity is protected by law and she'll just wander off into the sunset whilst the man gets his face and name splashed across the papers and has his name dragged through mud.

That's equality in action.

RacoonQueen · 21-06-2018 08:49AM

ash23 wrote: »

If it were a workplace and someone hugged a person and slipped their hand into their trousers would that be ok? We should just shrug it off?
Why should we accept someone over stepping the mark in a bar or a club?

Clubs are the absolute pits for this kind of stuff. Being pinned against walls, having your attempt to get to the bar or toilet blocked by someone who won't take no for an answer, actively struggling to get away from someone.
But that's all deemed as fine because you chose to go there so you must be looking for something? It is acceptable?
Nope, sorry, will never think that kind of behaviour is ok.

ash23 wrote: »

No I don't believe that is how it works. I don't remember anyone ever going from dancing to hands down pants.
It was usually dancing, getting closer, going in for a kiss and either bring rejected or getting the kiss. Then maybe after a bit of kissing a hand might wander lower and either get the green light or the red.

Someone sticking their hand down your trousers straight off the bat is just plain aggressive and unwarranted.

ash23 wrote: »

She was talking to him. Then she agreed to dance with him. Then he put his hands inside of her trousers. Whether she danced with him for ten seconds or ten minutes, it's a bit much to go from dancing to hand down trousers without any preamble.

She was dancing with him and had her hand on his shoulder. He told her to be careful as she was getting married. So, reports make it sound like she was sending him a load of signals...all positive. So he made a move, probably thinking she was up for it looking for a one night stand before her wedding. Jeez worse has happened to me in nightclubs, haven't been in one in years as I don't like the scene. I mean its not a nice move but if she was up for a one night stand with him, she would probably have been all over that move.

Lots of men are sleazy in clubs. If you're not interested you don't dance closely with them and you certainly don't put your hands on them while dancing with them. They are signals that you are interested.

People go to clubs for two things, to have fun or to try pick someone up. If someone makes a move on you, comes over and tries dancing with you, comes over to chat with you, blocking you on your way to the bar or whatever to try make contact with you. It's hardly harassment. Come on. They fancy you, want to talk to you, if you're not interested you say sorry dude, I'm not interested. You don't dance closely with them and put your hand on their shoulder and then complain that they put the moves on. :rolleyes:

Of course if someone in work came up an hugged you and stuck their hand down your trousers it would be assault. IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION. Going up to someone in work and randomly hugging them is inappropriate on its own never mind the rest.

nullzero · 21-06-2018 08:59AM

ash23 wrote: »

I don't see any other remedy that offers a person a fair trial but also offers the person who feels they were assaulted an option other than put up and shut up.
So therefore the courts are the answer. It would be great if there were a cheaper option that offered the same but if there were, we'd be doing that for all crimes.

If someone who didn't pay their TV licence or who stole a twenty quid bottle of booze from an off licence can end up in court, surely someone who groped someone without consent can't be seen as too trivial for court?
I won't be teaching my kid that if someone touched them when they didn't want to be touched, they should just accept it as being wrong but not do anything about it.
If they choose not to do anything and ignore it, that's their choice and I'd support it. And likewise if they choose to make a complaint to the Gardai I'd support that too and not tell them they are wasting time and money that could be better spent on important cases like TV licence or petty theft

Well you are wrong, plain and simple.
Citing trivial issues already in the courts doesn't make adding more trivial issues into the judicial system acceptable.

RacoonQueen · 21-06-2018 09:07AM

ash23 wrote: »

That's your opinion. I don't feel that being groped without consent is trivial at all.
Likewise saying something is trivial doesn't make it legal.

How do you give consent to someone to put the moves on? You don't give verbal consent, you send signals. I'd think that putting my hand on a guys shoulder while dancing with him would be a big green light that I'm interested. I mean I wouldn't be impressed with him sticking his hands down my trousers but if he touched her ass outside her trousers, that's still 'groping'

If you were dancing with a boyfriend on a drunken night out in a club and he did the same without you giving explicit consent, is it assault?

nullzero · 21-06-2018 09:07AM

ash23 wrote: »

That's your opinion. I don't feel that being groped without consent is trivial at all.
Likewise saying something is trivial doesn't make it legal.

So you feel a protracted court case for a slap on the wrist is an acceptable process?
I don't disagree with the moral implications but the law doesn't simply work on moral grounds.
In this case the woman's story isn't adding up and it is a reminder that any such accusations carry a burden of proof.

Outlaw Pete · 21-06-2018 09:09AM

irelandrover wrote: »

In this case hasnt teh woman already proved to have lied, saying she was dragged away by a friend and the CCTV shows she left.

What happens to her in this case. Does she get prosecuted for perjury?

Not a hope. Sure look at the Game of Thrones actress who claimed she was sexually assaulted to a degree which was an impossibility. Astonishing that it ever seen the inside of a court.

From the cases in the media where a prosecution for false sexual assault claim was brought, they usually tend to only happen when there is iron clad proof that the claimant has lied, as opposed to the possibilty that they just merely were mistaken and misremembered what occured. A case like this one for example couldn't be argued in that way.

ash23 · 21-06-2018 09:10AM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

She was dancing with him and had her hand on his shoulder. He told her to be careful as she was getting married. So, reports make it sound like she was sending him a load of signals...all positive. So he made a move, probably thinking she was up for it looking for a one night stand before her wedding. Jeez worse has happened to me in nightclubs, haven't been in one in years as I don't like the scene. I mean its not a nice move but if she was up for a one night stand with him, she would probably have been all over that move.

Lots of men are sleazy in clubs. If you're not interested you don't dance closely with them and you certainly don't put your hands on them while dancing with them. They are signals that you are interested.

People go to clubs for two things, to have fun or to try pick someone up. If someone makes a move on you, comes over and tries dancing with you, comes over to chat with you, blocking you on your way to the bar or whatever to try make contact with you. It's hardly harassment. Come on. They fancy you, want to talk to you, if you're not interested you say sorry dude, I'm not interested. You don't dance closely with them and put your hand on their shoulder and then complain that they put the moves on. :rolleyes:

Of course if someone in work came up an hugged you and stuck their hand down your trousers it would be assault. IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION. Going up to someone in work and randomly hugging them is inappropriate on its own never mind the rest.

It's up to the court to decide if it happened or not.
I was just commenting in response to the "no big deal, its to be expected in a club etc" comments.
I have no idea if he did it or if she is lying. The court will decide.

In terms of the work situation I meant if the hug was consensual does it mean it's ok to then progress to hands down trousers. And of course it isn't. So why would a woman agreeing to dance with a man mean hands down trousers is an ok next move. It's quite the leap and bang out of order to assume a person who talked to you and agreed to dance with you then wants your hands in their pants.

There might be a situation where someone is trying to suss someone out and thinks they like them but then changes their mind and doesn't want to kiss them or be with them. Them spending time talking, dancing or even flirting with someone doesn't give an open door to that kind of physical contact.

ash23 · 21-06-2018 09:13AM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

How do you give consent to someone to put the moves on? You don't give verbal consent, you send signals. I'd think that putting my hand on a guys shoulder while dancing with him would be a big green light that I'm interested. I mean I wouldn't be impressed with him sticking his hands down my trousers but if he touched her ass outside her trousers, that's still 'groping'

If you were dancing with a boyfriend on a drunken night out in a club and he did the same without you giving explicit consent, is it assault?

Again it's quite the jump from dancing to hands in trousers.
Thankfully my boyfriend wouldn't dream of putting his hands into my trousers in public. I wouldn't be with a man who thought that was ok.
I can't believe that you think putting a hand on a shoulder is giving a green light to a hand in your trousers

nullzero · 21-06-2018 09:16AM

ash23 wrote: »

It's up to the court to decide if it happened or not.
I was just commenting in response to the "no big deal, its to be expected in a club etc" comments.
I have no idea if he did it or if she is lying. The court will decide.

In terms of the work situation I meant if the hug was consensual does it mean it's ok to then progress to hands down trousers. And of course it isn't. So why would a woman agreeing to dance with a man mean hands down trousers is an ok next move. It's quite the leap and bang out of order to assume a person who talked to you and agreed to dance with you then wants your hands in their pants.

There might be a situation where someone is trying to suss someone out and thinks they like them but then changes their mind and doesn't want to kiss them or be with them. Them spending time talking, dancing or even flirting with someone doesn't give an open door to that kind of physical contact.

Do you think women are not capable of dealing with these issues? Do women need the judicial system to deal with it on their behalf?

John Leslie Trial - Accused of touching woman's bum in nightclub

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