Ireland 2040 plan results in high rise building being approved

CatInABox · 17-06-2018 11:29am #1

Fora.ie have an article about a hotel and "aparthotel" being approved after appeal. It was originally rejected, but since that rejection, the Ireland 2040 plan was published with a focus on high rise development. That plan was then cited as the reason for the approval.

Very interesting that the Ireland 2040 plan is being used to override the councils plan, perhaps this will result in some much needed high development now.

Also, Johnny Ronan must be sick looking at a high rise development literally around the corner from where his building was rejected. Of course, it's not on the same scale, but still, he must be wondering if it's worth chancing his arm again.

Varik · 17-06-2018 12:02pm

“High-rise is for high rollers, it’s great if you want to build expensive apartments because it’s expensive to build and therefore it is expensive to sell units.

Not like those people aren't going to be buying else where and driving up prices there.

JohnC. · 17-06-2018 12:48pm

Only 8 storeys? What's the definition of high-rise? I didn't realise even just 8 was so problematic in Dublin.

marno21 · 17-06-2018 3:27pm

8 storeys is high rise in Kerry or Mayo. It's utterly pathetic in a city like Dublin.

plodder · 17-06-2018 4:15pm

I don't see why the choice has to be between traditional semi-d two-storey and "sky scrapers". Most of Europe seems to get on fine with 4-5 storey blocks, which are a lot cheaper to build than the really high rise stuff. Also, look at what happened with the new tower in Ballymun. It just takes one tool to have a kitchen fire and then dozens of families could be made homeless. High rise is fine in specific close to city centre locations though.

bk · 18-06-2018 11:53am

plodder wrote: »

I don't see why the choice has to be between traditional semi-d two-storey and "sky scrapers". Most of Europe seems to get on fine with 4-5 storey blocks, which are a lot cheaper to build than the really high rise stuff. Also, look at what happened with the new tower in Ballymun. It just takes one tool to have a kitchen fire and then dozens of families could be made homeless. High rise is fine in specific close to city centre locations though.

As you say it is an overall problem.

It is crazy that lots of new buildings down by the docks are only 4 to 6 storeys. They should all be at least 10 storeys going up to 20 and even a few 30 to 40 storey real high rise.

But equally, it is mad that I live in the suburbs, just 3km from O'Connell Bridge and there is lots of new developments, but there still only 2 to 3 storey houses! Mad. That clsoe to the city it should be a lot of 4 to 6 storey apartment buildings.

Dardania · 18-06-2018 12:17pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Fora.ie have an article about a hotel and "aparthotel" being approved after appeal. It was originally rejected, but since that rejection, the Ireland 2040 plan was published with a focus on high rise development. That plan was then cited as the reason for the approval.

Very interesting that the Ireland 2040 plan is being used to override the councils plan, perhaps this will result in some much needed high development now.

Also, Johnny Ronan must be sick looking at a high rise development literally around the corner from where his building was rejected. Of course, it's not on the same scale, but still, he must be wondering if it's worth chancing his arm again.

Great - that's how these plans should to used, to drive the local authorities etc. to toe the national strategic line

wakka12 · 18-06-2018 12:32pm

I can't even take this seriously, system needed to be over ridden to allow a fecking 8 story in the middle of dublins modern financial/tech centre. How in the world could 8 stories be anyway too much for central dublin

markpb · 18-06-2018 12:43pm

Dardania wrote: »

Great - that's how these plans should to used, to drive the local authorities etc. to toe the national strategic line

I'm all in favour of the outcome (more density where it's suitable) but I hate the way we're getting there. Taking more powers away from our local authorities when they're already very limited is the wrong thing to do. It doesn't make sense that the same people are looking for a locally elected mayor while also cheering the government when they use policy to take powers away from the local authorities.

The housing minister already has the power to veto or change local area plans. When DCC presented their plan with the terrible words "Dublin is a low rise city and should remain as such", why was there no reaction from the government? That was the time to send the development plan back to the council and tell them to cop themselves on.

Dardania · 18-06-2018 3:43pm

markpb wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Great - that's how these plans should to used, to drive the local authorities etc. to toe the national strategic line

I'm all in favour of the outcome (more density where it's suitable) but I hate the way we're getting there. Taking more powers away from our local authorities when they're already very limited is the wrong thing to do. It doesn't make sense that the same people are looking for a locally elected mayor while also cheering the government when they use policy to take powers away from the local authorities.

The housing minister already has the power to veto or change local area plans. When DCC presented their plan with the terrible words "Dublin is a low rise city and should remain as such", why was there no reaction from the government? That was the time to send the development plan back to the council and tell them to cop themselves on.

100% agree with you that the government should have reacted to DCCs statement. And I admit I believe that there should be greater local power (incl. local mayor)

The issue is, DCC are thinking like the city they are, rather than what Dublin represents to the rest of the country. For that, there needs to be greater national government input - if Dublin didn’t exist, the rest of the country would practically collapse, such is its revenue generation capacity.

blanch152 · 18-06-2018 4:26pm

markpb wrote: »

I'm all in favour of the outcome (more density where it's suitable) but I hate the way we're getting there. Taking more powers away from our local authorities when they're already very limited is the wrong thing to do. It doesn't make sense that the same people are looking for a locally elected mayor while also cheering the government when they use policy to take powers away from the local authorities.

The housing minister already has the power to veto or change local area plans. When DCC presented their plan with the terrible words "Dublin is a low rise city and should remain as such", why was there no reaction from the government? That was the time to send the development plan back to the council and tell them to cop themselves on.

The government did react. It produced the 2040 National Plan to overturn the gobsh!te councillors in DCC.

This is what governments should do. Produce an overall coherent framework that councils must operate within.

cgcsb · 18-06-2018 4:32pm

I'm all for local democracy, but there's too many anti progress elements in DCC, mostly extreme left wingers who like keeping people as poor and downtrodden as possible.

punisher5112 · 18-06-2018 4:36pm

I would love to see properly designed and actually nice to look at high rises.

I honestly can't see how even in the docks they cant go up to say 10 to 20 stories.

Only thing is it will make the rich richer as prices will be just as bad.

Zebra3 · 18-06-2018 4:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm all for local democracy, but there's too many anti progress elements in DCC, mostly extreme left wingers who like keeping people as poor and downtrodden as possible.

Can you provide examples?

cgcsb · 18-06-2018 4:41pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I would love to see properly designed and actually nice to look at high rises.

I honestly can't see how even in the docks they cant go up to say 10 to 20 stories.

Only thing is it will make the rich richer as prices will be just as bad.

The price of every commodity = what people are willing to pay for that commodity, if the commodity is abundant then the price will be lower. Basic supply and demand there. There are also reasonable steps that the City could take to prevent excessive price inflation, for example they could bar vulture funds from buying or they could limit the amount of properties that investment firms can own.

cgcsb · 18-06-2018 4:43pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Can you provide examples?

Green Party and Labour councilors and TDs have consistently campaigned against residential developments, particularly multi-storey developments in their areas, indeed many boast about their opposition to said developments in their election manifestos.

blanch152 · 18-06-2018 4:58pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Can you provide examples?

Of incompetent local councillors?

How about the Phibsboro Local Area Plan?

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/northsidewest/articles/2018/05/14/4155970-locals-hope-to-influence-phibsborough-plan/

http://www.thejournal.ie/reimagining-phibsborough-plans-2852727-Jul2016/

Time and again, the failure of the current load of incompetent councillors in DCC to adopt a LAP for Phibsboro has been referenced as the main source of the problems with developing the village. I don't know the latest, but maybe by now they have managed to get their act together.

Zebra3 · 20-06-2018 9:32am

cgcsb wrote: »

Green Party and Labour councilors and TDs have consistently campaigned against residential developments, particularly multi-storey developments in their areas, indeed many boast about their opposition to said developments in their election manifestos.

And that keeps people poor and downtrodden?

And you think the Greens and Labour are left-wing? Not when in power....

I think you'll find it was the right-wing parties who looted the state about ten years ago to protect the wealthy.

It was the poor and downtrodden kept in their place by the crooks with fat pay cheques, sweet expenses, and obscene pensions.

Talk to those families who lost their homes or suffered from suicides and ask them which parties destroyed them.

Sam Russell · 20-06-2018 12:03pm

Mod: Can we keep the politics out of this thread. Terms like 'downtrodden' are political, and should be taken to the politics forum.

I do not want to cramp posters style, but it is in the interest of clarity and to prevent threads descending into chaos.

Thank you.

24-06-2018 2:14pm

marno21 wrote: »

8 storeys is high rise in Kerry or Mayo. It's utterly pathetic in a city like Dublin.

Mid-rise (5-8 storeys) is the norm in almost every European city (except e.g. Rotterdam and Hamburg). High-rise is wasteful on every metric except F.A.R. and I'm not aware of any evidence that land is at such a premium in Dublin that high-rise is ever foreseeably going to be necessary beyond a sprinkling of office towers.

What has led you to believe that high rise (<12 storeys) is necessary or beneficial to Dublin beyond a handful of specific use-cases?

CatInABox · 24-06-2018 3:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mid-rise (5-8 storeys) is the norm in almost every European city (except e.g. Rotterdam and Hamburg). High-rise is wasteful on every metric except F.A.R. and I'm not aware of any evidence that land is at such a premium in Dublin that high-rise is ever foreseeably going to be necessary beyond a sprinkling of office towers.

What has led you to believe that high rise (<12 storeys) is necessary or beneficial to Dublin beyond a handful of specific use-cases?

Dublin is currently going through a massive office space shortage, and despite the current building spree, it's not getting significantly better. A high rise office area in the docklands definitely makes sense there. It's also got a massive hotel space shortage, but I'd personally prefer if hotels were kept around a max of 8 stories or so.

bk · 25-06-2018 10:04am

Plus the point is we don't even do mid-rise. I live just 3km from O'Connell Bridge and I'm surrounded by a sea of two storey semi-d's!

Any similar sized European city would be all mid-rise (5 to 8 storey) apartment buildings this close to the city.

wakka12 · 25-06-2018 10:48am

Yeh exactly mid rise is imo ideal throughout a city with only a few high-rises as landmarks, for the city skyline,image, aesthetics, and zero nasty suburbia.

But in Dublin suburbia was let run amoc for so long and continues to sprawl into places like kiltiernan so some high-rises are very much needed to quickly and effectively combat that and inject some much needed density

marno21 · 25-06-2018 2:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mid-rise (5-8 storeys) is the norm in almost every European city (except e.g. Rotterdam and Hamburg). High-rise is wasteful on every metric except F.A.R. and I'm not aware of any evidence that land is at such a premium in Dublin that high-rise is ever foreseeably going to be necessary beyond a sprinkling of office towers.

What has led you to believe that high rise (<12 storeys) is necessary or beneficial to Dublin beyond a handful of specific use-cases?

If Dublin is building midrise developments in it's central business district, down in the Docklands, it doesn't give much hope for anything of any note outside of that area, in the suburbs.

I'm not talking about suburban "high rise" but making the most use of limited land resources would merit buildings higher than what we have at the minute.

theyoungchap · 25-06-2018 2:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mid-rise (5-8 storeys) is the norm in almost every European city (except e.g. Rotterdam and Hamburg). High-rise is wasteful on every metric except F.A.R. and I'm not aware of any evidence that land is at such a premium in Dublin that high-rise is ever foreseeably going to be necessary beyond a sprinkling of office towers.

What has led you to believe that high rise (<12 storeys) is necessary or beneficial to Dublin beyond a handful of specific use-cases?

I presume you mean >12 stories.

The benefits of high-rise are significant. Plenty of young people are currently renting 3-4 bed houses in suburbs and commuting in. If we had high-rise, these people could live in Docklands say, walk or cycle to work nearby. This takes massive pressure off our already choked public transport and road network, while also freeing up family style houses for families. It is a complete no-brainer for me. Young people love to live in the city centre, and you can house thousands of people on a relatively small site.

Dublin has 2 options, sprawl out or sprawl up. Unfortunately, we have chosen the first one and it has been a disaster for everybody.

Consonata · 25-06-2018 3:25pm

theyoungchap wrote: »

Dublin has 2 options, sprawl out or sprawl up. Unfortunately, we have chosen the first one and it has been a disaster for everybody.

No European city has sprawled out and remained functional without a really decent Public Transport system. That, Dublin definitely doesn't have

theyoungchap · 25-06-2018 3:26pm

Consonata wrote: »

No European city has sprawled out and remained functional without a really decent Public Transport system. That, Dublin definitely doesn't have

Exactly. So you increase the density in the city centre, which is by far the quickest thing to fix, and then sort out the public transport at the same time, but that takes much longer.

Mutant z · 25-06-2018 3:31pm

Highrise is the most effective way to tackle ugly urban sprawl which is currently happening in Dublin once it starts going up you would wonder what the fuss was about build it up and build it up now.

Idbatterim · 25-06-2018 3:32pm

the below article will be of interest to you guys...

https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/ronan-lyons-wheres-the-plan-to-provide-20-new-homes-per-acre-in-dublin-36993600.html

theyoungchap · 25-06-2018 3:32pm

Mutant z wrote: »

Highrise is the most effective way to tackle ugly urban sprawl which is currently happening in Dublin once it starts going up you would wonder what the fuss was about build it up and build it up now.

Clowns in the council is why. They just don't get it.
This is why councils need to be given less power.

Mutant z · 25-06-2018 3:42pm

Its absolutely hilarious to hear objections to high rise in Dublin based on protecting the heritage of the city doesnt London have a heritage as well or is Dublin the only city in the world that has existed for the last millennium.

Consonata · 25-06-2018 4:07pm

Mutant z wrote: »

Its absolutely hilarious to hear objections to high rise in Dublin based on protecting the heritage of the city doesnt London have a heritage as well or is Dublin the only city in the world that has existed for the last millennium.

It really makes the case for a properly directly elected mayor who can run on a vision for the entire city, rather than trying to get agreement amongst what 6 different councils?

Idbatterim · 25-06-2018 4:19pm

Mutant z wrote: »

Its absolutely hilarious to hear objections to high rise in Dublin based on protecting the heritage of the city doesnt London have a heritage as well or is Dublin the only city in the world that has existed for the last millennium.

sure Paris and hundreds of other cities worldwide, far more impressive than dublin, dont have heritage and old buildings either :rolleyes:

bk · 25-06-2018 4:31pm

Interesting comment from the above article:
https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/ronan-lyons-wheres-the-plan-to-provide-20-new-homes-per-acre-in-dublin-36993600.html

For apartments, think everything from purpose-built student accommodation and urban medium-to-high-rise right the way through to suburban low-rise for downsizers, as well as independent and assisted living complexes.

Absolutely spot on. Here we seem to think that the only building should be a 3 to 4 bed semi-d and that should house everything from students, to young professionals, to families, to retired folks. It really makes no sense at all.

Instead building a variety of different styles of apartments that focus on delivering peoples needs for different stages in their live.

One thing I disagree with, I don't think they should all be in completely separate developments. I think for better social cohesion it is better to make all the above in the same developments. In particular I think elderly people can benefit greatly in sharing with young families. In mainland Europe, you see many apartment buildings have play grounds out the front of the building and you will often see elderly people relaxing outside keeping an eye on the kids while the parents are busy getting jobs down. Tends to be good for elderly people, kids and families.

ncounties · 25-06-2018 6:05pm

I totally agree that developments specifically for retiree´s should be integrated with apartments for those a bit younger, and these certainly shouldn´t separate from houses. But this can only really apply to suburban brown and green field sites - given the size of the development. It pains me the amount of un-utilised inner city land, that would be perfect from apartments.

I have a number of Finnish friends, and they are all a similar age to myself (late twenties), and when I visit them, they are all living in 1930s/40s apartment complexes, many of which contain large studios, alongside 1, 2 and 3 bedroom apartments (and only have one aspect!). I´d much prefer to own my own studio built to the Finnish standard, than continue to rent one bedroom in East Wall! On another note, the Scandinavian countries have one of the lowest rates of young adults living with parents!

Finally, I really like what this developer does in the UK https://www.inspiredhomes.uk.com/

Wheeliebin30 · 25-06-2018 7:49pm

Sinn Fein are the majority of Dublin City Council?

Zebra3 · 25-06-2018 8:12pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are the majority of Dublin City Council?

No, they’ve less than a quarter of the seats.

Wheeliebin30 · 25-06-2018 8:32pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

No, they’ve less than a quarter of the seats.

Sorry they have the most seats on Dublin City Council.

Zebra3 · 26-06-2018 10:53am

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Sorry they have the most seats on Dublin City Council.

I’m not really sure what your point is, if any.

The attitude to high rise has been the same regardless of who is running the council.

Idbatterim · 26-06-2018 5:09pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

I’m not really sure what your point is, if any.

The attitude to high rise has been the same regardless of who is running the council.

Ill back this up, yes SF might have the majority of councilors but lets get real here AS IF FG, FF will support high density development beside all of the people they go to looking for votes every few years, they run on an anti development platform for f*ck sake!

Zebra3 · 26-06-2018 6:32pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ill back this up, yes SF might have the majority of councilors but lets get real here AS IF FG, FF will support high density development beside all of the people they go to looking for votes every few years, they run on an anti development platform for f*ck sake!

Your post makes no sense to me.

JohnC. · 08-07-2018 8:39am

Nine-storey hotel approved. It's on the corner of Liffey Street Upper and Middle Abbey Street. An Taisce thought it would ruin the view from the Ha’penny Bridge.

roadmaster · 08-07-2018 9:28am

If An Taisce had being around during the construction of Newgrange they probably would have objected!

CatInABox · 08-07-2018 2:42pm

JohnC. wrote: »

Nine-storey hotel approved. It's on the corner of Liffey Street Upper and Middle Abbey Street. An Taisce thought it would ruin the view from the Ha’penny Bridge.

This is actually the second planning application in which An Taisce have been told to get lost in recent days.

Aldborough House has been cleared for redevelopment, with only minor changes to the scheme, and that's despite the Department of Heritage, An Taisce, and the Irish Georgian Society all objecting to it.

Personally, I'd prefer if these old structures were used to house museums or art galleries or something, but if the government aren't going to fund them, then offices are the next best thing.

All in all though, it seems like the winds of change are blowing through An Bord Pleanála and Dublin City Council. I think both projects would have failed a couple of years back.

wakka12 · 08-07-2018 3:00pm

JohnC. wrote: »

Nine-storey hotel approved. It's on the corner of Liffey Street Upper and Middle Abbey Street. An Taisce thought it would ruin the view from the Ha’penny Bridge.

Whatever about the height, but thats a horrible big clunky looking yolk. Could they not have broken up the facade vertically to keep it more in harmony with the narrow townhouses of the area? Modern architects are just beyond inept , seem to be unable to tell what makes a building look nice or even not ugly

colm_mcm · 08-07-2018 3:08pm

roadmaster wrote: »

If An Taisce had being around during the construction of Newgrange they probably would have objected!

If boards had been around, there’d be plenty of “another waste of money, shur it’ll only be used once a year” threads!

Stan27 · 22-07-2018 11:01am

Any new on Tara street tower. Has it been approved yet?

Idbatterim · 22-07-2018 11:07am

Stan27 wrote: »

Any new on Tara street tower. Has it been approved yet?

Rejected. Johnny Ronan said if it was Rejectedthat he’d go with the original rubbish scheme that has planning. (He said this while they were making decision on newer scheme) basically gave them a free pass. He should be challenging this in the courts given the total and utter farce it is. He has the money ...

Stan27 · 22-07-2018 1:13pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Stan27 wrote: »

Any new on Tara street tower. Has it been approved yet?

Rejected. Johnny Ronan said if it was Rejectedthat he’d go with the original rubbish scheme that has planning. (He said this while they were making decision on newer scheme) basically gave them a free pass. He should be challenging this in the courts given the total and utter farce it is. He has the money ...

Yes pure ridiculous at this stage. Makes 100% sence for Dublin to go high-rise!! we are expanding The city further out into the countryside yet do not have public transport sufficient enough for this. The only Lodgic way to fix this is build up.
The country is shooting itself in the foot!!!!!!

cgcsb · 23-07-2018 10:59am

An utter shambles.

DCC: here's a local area plan including this specific site which would be suitable for high rise

Developer: lets have 15 meetings with DCC and thrash out an acceptable high rise design

DCC: Ok

15 excruciating, nit picking meetings later all parties are satisfied, planning submitted.

DCC: rejected as height is excessive

JR is well within his rights to sue for time and money wasted.

Idbatterim · 26-07-2018 7:01pm

cgcsb wrote: »

An utter shambles.

DCC: here's a local area plan including this specific site which would be suitable for high rise

Developer: lets have 15 meetings with DCC and thrash out an acceptable high rise design

DCC: Ok

15 excruciating, nit picking meetings later all parties are satisfied, planning submitted.

DCC: rejected as height is excessive

JR is well within his rights to sue for time and money wasted.

you see by not doing this he is letting them off the hook. The word "planning" in Ireland, brings an entirely new meaning to the word. If he challenges them in the courts, it would bring to mass attention, what a farce the entire system is...

Ireland 2040 plan results in high rise building being approved

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