Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Overheal · 14-06-2018 04:00AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Before the ref the no side were fine with the local post man giving pills to women. They never once looked for any woman to be charged for illegally importing and using.

Now they don't trust a qualified GP.

Laughable.

spot on.

That’s how the game is played. That’s what obstructionists will do, they will play these games and fight for every TRAP law they can.

Overheal · 14-06-2018 04:06AM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Lets just sack doctors who have trained for years put in a lot of time and money who can help an awful lot people out on their asses just because they might disagree with the abortion of a fetus.

If they refuse to obey the law and refer a patient in their care to someone who can help them then yes that’s the unfortunate outcome. It would be the same if a doctor refused to obey any other regulation. it has nothing to do with their investment in education it has everything to do with negligence.

Overheal · 14-06-2018 04:10AM

end of the road wrote: »

that is an irrelevant comparison. without a lung transplant you will eventually die. only in a small minority of cases would non-provision of an abortion lead to a death, and i can't imagine a doctor who may be against abortion on demand refusing to provide in those cases.

Bullsht. The woman has already made her choice. The fetus isn’t going to make it to term. The only thing the doctor accomplished by refusing to refer is they prolong the inevitable, thereby increasing the odds it reaches a stage of fetal development where it suffers potentially or the woman suffers more than she needs to.

Overheal · 14-06-2018 04:13AM

WillContribute wrote: »

I pose a question. ...

A pregnant patient arrives seeking an abortion.

The doctor isn't happy but the "newest" law says they should be sacked, if they don't.

After cursory checks pregnancy onfirmed, blood pressure etc

The GP declines, lots of possible reasons can be provided. (GP doesn't have: appropriate, equipment to satisfy legal requirements, support facilities, after hours support care, insurance, patient has other complicating conditions, etc) Their professional judgement anyway says that they are unable to give the best care to that patient to make it sufficiently safe to their satisfaction.

The GP provides a page with a list of possible clinics or doctors that have more expertise and can give better care, but it is the choice of the patient as to what to do. The patient's medical file can be collected in an hour from the reception.

It is nonsense to suggest that GPs can be forced. Some will do abortions, some won't.

Doctors no different to any other industry, if they don't want to do something, they will find a reason that is more palatable.

They referendum is passed, abortion is coming to Ireland, but I find the pro choice dogmatism bizzare, especially coming from a position of strength.

The scenario you mention is not in dispute. What’s in dispute is the refusal to refer. That said the only thing on that list might be patient complications to refuse to prescribe the oral abortifaceant pills, you don’t need special facilities for that.

erica74 · 14-06-2018 06:59AM

Annabella1 wrote: »

My sources quoted above on another post are from Susan Mitchell SBP and the National Assoc GP's

Nobody is trying to reverse the referendum-the 8th is gone
Now it is time to discuss implementation which I support in a high quality supportive manner to women
The only way to do that in my opinion and the vast majority of GP's are in specialised clinics (like the UK for the past 40yrs) to deliver the best care (even to prescribe pills before 12weeks)
Sadly that wont suit politicians and the electorate as these clinics will be too visible

And what's your issue with the service being provided by GPs and essentially being "invisible"?

We don't have the demand here for setting up clinics etc. There is greater demand in the UK because they have a larger population than we do and they have many women travelling to them from other countries, which increased the demand on their service. Also, cost should never be a barrier to any woman seeking time sensitive medical care. If you put a price on this service, it becomes inaccessible to those who may need it most.

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Abortion would probably be less than 1% of a doctors job what about the other 99% he could help?

Something that doctor needs to consider before refusing any woman medical care.

B0jangles · 14-06-2018 07:12AM

alaimacerc wrote: »

And is well-known, when it's actually dripping off them, that's Stage Four Leftism. Don't approach within 100m, as not only is it highly contagious, you can can contract it off them by airborne spread, too!

Did you know that human hair functions like a litmus test?
Purple hair is a clear indicator that the subject's Leftism* has reached a dangerously advanced stage.

*or to use the older term - 'obstreperosity'

Fighting Tao · 14-06-2018 07:49AM

The No side are continuing with finding reasons for self preservation. The latest being the conscientious objector. The woman still doesn’t come into it for them. It is all “me, me, me” with a bit of “foetus”. Not one sh1t given about what happens after the birth.

This thread will probably be studied in colleges for years to come.

Cabaal · 14-06-2018 08:17AM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Nobody was fine with the post man giving pills to women.

So you can show me evidence where the no side lobbied the government to enforce the existing laws and jail women for importing and using pills? ..

Nope? , thought not.

It's not like the woman we're hidden, channel 4 did a report over a year ago where they interviewed a woman who illegally imported and distributed pills, gave her name and location. Easy find her.

The no side never said a word about charging her,

Annabella1 · 14-06-2018 09:23AM

spookwoman wrote: »

I said docs but I use that as a general term for hospital / clinic etc.
I also said the RCN would like to see women being able to take the pills at home. I am using it as an example of what is being suggested in the UK but this is not the UK this is Ireland.

On another note about doctors objecting in IRELAND as it is there can be a weeks wait to see your own doctor then add the extra time if you have to go else where. Then there is the issue where many doctors will not take on new patients so what are these women supposed to do? If a doctor is getting money from the state eg to provide care to medical card carriers and care doc services then they should have to provide abortion services. If they don't like it then they can go fully private, notify their patients and put up a sign saying they object to abortions and they will not provide them.

Thank you
So the UK has not allowed stand alone GP's to prescribe/administer abortion pills for 40 years
We have to ask why...
I presume the amount of C.Objector GP's after 40 years of liberal regime is tiny in the UK
Therefore it must be for reasons of safety meaning women need access to specialist clinics to access best care
This will cost money

ELM327 · 14-06-2018 09:24AM

Annabella1 wrote: »

Thank you
So the UK has not allowed stand alone GP's to prescribe/administer abortion pills for 40 years
We have to ask why...
I presume the amount of C.Objector GP's after 40 years of liberal regime is tiny in the UK
Therefore it must be for reasons of safety meaning women need access to specialist clinics to access best care
This will cost money

Nothing to do with 24 week timeframe, no?

Wrongway1985 · 14-06-2018 09:26AM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

That's easy to say when your not the one with everything to lose.

What was the point in asking me if you already knew the response given it was so easy.

What have they got to lose? They don't like it they they move it along how is that not a preferable compromise? You said it yourself 1% of patients if that's the case, what's the hump over?

Annabella1 · 14-06-2018 09:36AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Nothing to do with 24 week timeframe, no?

GP's do not prescribe...full stop in UK

Corners must not be cut on women's health and safety

I am not anti-abortion (btw)

ohnonotgmail · 14-06-2018 09:39AM

Annabella1 wrote: »

Thank you
So the UK has not allowed stand alone GP's to prescribe/administer abortion pills for 40 years
We have to ask why...
I presume the amount of C.Objector GP's after 40 years of liberal regime is tiny in the UK
Therefore it must be for reasons of safety meaning women need access to specialist clinics to access best care
This will cost money

Must it? there can be no other reason?

....... · 14-06-2018 09:45AM

This post has been deleted.

Fighting Tao · 14-06-2018 09:50AM

Annabella1 wrote: »

GP's do not prescribe...full stop in UK

Corners must not be cut on women's health and safety

I am not anti-abortion (btw)

Why must Ireland follow the UK?

ohnonotgmail · 14-06-2018 09:51AM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Why must Ireland follow the UK?

It is really funny that before the referendum the No side harped about all the bad aspects of the UK system and now they want us to follow it.

Fighting Tao · 14-06-2018 09:54AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is really funny that before the referendum the No side harped about all the bad aspects of the UK system and now they want us to follow it.

They still want to outsource to the UK.

Martina1991 · 14-06-2018 09:55AM

end of the road wrote:

because they should not be expected to have any hand in an abortion if they don't want to. abortion being very different to anything in any other job.

Working in a hospital, there are staff from every country, religion and creed.

We all leave our beliefs at the door. If you have a problem with the personal decisions of others you shouldn't work in a medical field.

It doesn't matter if you're a drug addict, criminal, mentally unwell, violent, foreign or pregnant.

The patient comes first. That's it.

ELM327 · 14-06-2018 10:03AM

Annabella1 wrote: »

GP's do not prescribe...full stop in UK

Corners must not be cut on women's health and safety

I am not anti-abortion (btw)

That's because of many factors. BTW.
None of which are safety related.

Calina · 14-06-2018 10:26AM

Annabella1 wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

Nothing to do with 24 week timeframe, no?

GP's do not prescribe...full stop in UK

Corners must not be cut on women's health and safety

I am not anti-abortion (btw)

I agree corners should not be cut. But they already are when you start trying to limit access. Abortion provision in the UK predates the development of medical abortion. We can develop our service provision based options available in 2018, and not necessarily 1967. You have not really outlined why making it GP available given the expected legal restrictions which to some extent exceed the UK's limits represents 'cutting corners with women's health'. One of the key tools used by the anti-choice campaigns is to place barriers in the provision of abortion services under the heading of "protecting women" but mostly for preventing them from getting an abortion.

80% of abortions at least are likely to be medical. We will not really need special surgical centres for this.

8-10 · 14-06-2018 10:56AM

Calina wrote: »

One of the key tools used by the anti-choice campaigns is to place barriers in the provision of abortion services under the heading of "protecting women" but mostly for preventing them from getting an abortion.

QFT, very well said

mcmoustache · 14-06-2018 11:01AM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

One of those, y’know, nudge nudge, wink wink.

Say no more. Wink wink.

erica74 · 14-06-2018 11:49AM

The reason why there are stand alone clinics in the UK is because of the demand for services. There are far more people over there and that's before you even factor in all of the additional women who travel to the UK from other countries. We simply don't have the demand for a stand alone service here.
Additionally, cost should not be an additional hurdle in time sensitive medical care.

ELM327 · 14-06-2018 11:59AM

erica74 wrote: »

The reason why there are stand alone clinics in the UK is because of the demand for services. There are far more people over there and that's before you even factor in all of the additional women who travel to the UK from other countries. We simply don't have the demand for a stand alone service here.
Additionally, cost should not be an additional hurdle in time sensitive medical care.

There should not be an additional cost at all.

Free.
Safe.
Legal.

We've got the second two but the first is equally or more important. The 8th caused a socioeconomic barrier to abortion due to the cost of "getting the boat". That barrier needs to be lifted too.

captbarnacles · 14-06-2018 12:25PM

This new angle from the prolifers carries even less weight than any of the arguments they advanced for voting no.

It's pathetic really.

topper75 · 14-06-2018 12:33PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

But that was the reality. Whenever medical care was withheld from a pregnant woman in order not to harm a foetus, at that moment, the rights of the foetus superseded the rights of the woman. Not a strawman at all.

But that was the reality in what case? That is like typing FACT in bold after a statement.

I know of no case where medical care was withheld to save a foetus.

The yes side tried to pit one against another.
They mispresented a late diagnosis of sepsis as an either/or case with the late Indian lady in Galway. Two people died that sad day.

The no side at least were quite consistent about the right to life, hence the love both campaign.

....... · 14-06-2018 12:36PM

This post has been deleted.

RobertKK · 14-06-2018 01:08PM

Pro-choice doctor calls for opt in for doctors. Also calls for the New Zealand system where conscientious objection is respected.
He says 80% of GPs don’t want to carry out abortions.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/medical-abortion-is-not-part-of-routine-general-practice-85-of-gps-are-of-this-opinion-4064057-Jun2018/

ELM327 · 14-06-2018 01:11PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Pro-choice doctor calls for opt in for doctors. Also calls for the New Zealand system where conscientious objection is respected.
He says 80% of GPs don’t want to carry out abortions.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/medical-abortion-is-not-part-of-routine-general-practice-85-of-gps-are-of-this-opinion-4064057-Jun2018/

"the vast majority of whom will facilitate their patients through onwards referral to those who will"
Not good enough

Compulsory referral should be the absolute minimum requirement, with penalty of loss of medical license for refusal.

erica74 · 14-06-2018 01:24PM

ELM327 wrote: »

There should not be an additional cost at all.

Free.
Safe.
Legal.

We've got the second two but the first is equally or more important. The 8th caused a socioeconomic barrier to abortion due to the cost of "getting the boat". That barrier needs to be lifted too.

I agree that it should be free.

Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

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