Should the tiered hurling championships be abolished?

yesnow · 11-06-2018 6:09pm #1

I was thinking about this in light of Offaly's recent relegation.

IMO not letting weaker teams into the SHC only keeps them weak, only playing sides of similar. The current system forces counties that aren't necessarily bad at hurling but aren't in the top ten (eg. Kerry, Antrim) to fight tooth and nail for a single scrap of recognition. It also keeps hurling unpopular in football strongholds as kids never see their county playing on telly.

I think if we had something more like the football championship (although it too has many flaws) hurling would be better off at a national level and make the sport more popular than it is now in most parts of the country.

Thoughts?

Davys Fits · 11-06-2018 6:36pm

The system was not tiered for 100 years and the game did not take off in the North of the country. Its not like football in that the gap between the tiers is much bigger in hurling. Division 4 teams beating division 1 teams is unheard of and thats more to do with the game itself than promotion.
But that does not mean they should not show some of the lower tier games on TV. I havnt yet seen 1 second of the JoeMcDonagh cup on TV this year. These are good sides and deserve better.

slegs · 11-06-2018 7:02pm

Best thing to happen in the GAA since the original back door in 96/7

If Offaly were good enough they would have stayed up. If they become good enough they will get back. It’s the basic premise of promotion and relegation

In any case why do Offaly deserve any preferential treatment over Carlow/Westmeath/Laois/Kerry all good hurling counties too.

Just because Offaly have won more than these counties doesn’t warrant special treatment.

The GAA will tweak this format but it’s here to stay in my view. Can’t be regarded as anything other than a big success based on the quality of the games, the intensity and the relatively good attendances.

Personally I would go for two balanced groups of 6 with 2 relegated and promoted each year (provincial championships separate competitions entirely before AI) but that’s not likely to happen

OldMrBrennan83 · 11-06-2018 7:05pm

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Owryan · 11-06-2018 7:09pm

Seems to me that relegation only became a bad thing because it was Offaly that was involved.

Listening to the draw the head guy of the gaa was asked if the system would be changed because, it sounded to me, it was Offaly that were relegated.

Much the same with those complaining that the Munster championship should be changed just because tipp were knocked out. Surely counties knew these risks when voting on on them.

C__MC · 11-06-2018 7:33pm

I think a major problem for teams at lower levels is the amount of players Playing from stronger counties playing then with the likes of donegal Sligo etc. I think this shouldn’t be allowed.
I’m not a fan of the joe mc Donagh getting a qualifier as it will be a turkey shoot. It’s amazing That the middle tier counties have never made any notable breakthrough in LMC. The finals of the lower tier competitions should be telivised and played before big game in Croke Park though

OldMrBrennan83 · 11-06-2018 7:38pm

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C__MC · 11-06-2018 7:40pm

Patww79 wrote: »

Wasn't that majorly cut back this year?

Can’t answer you but I know there is a tipp lad beating teams on his own in the Nicky rackard

JRant · 11-06-2018 7:42pm

I've really enjoyed this year's championship so far but for the players that are out it's a hard pill to swallow if you are done and dusted by the first weekend off June.

IMO, the GAA already have the answer in both codes, ie the league format. This should absolutely be played on the firmer ground at this time of year. We would have a lot of cracking games to watch. If they shifted the league to start in April/May and did away with the antiquated Provincial system it would see a sea change for both codes. The calendar would also be cleared up for the club game.

Of course it will never happen as it makes too much sense to HQ and those who are stuck in the past.

LeinsterDub · 11-06-2018 7:43pm

yesnow wrote: »

IMO not letting weaker teams into the SHC only keeps them weak, only playing sides of similar. The current system forces counties that aren't necessarily bad at hurling but aren't in the top ten (eg. Kerry, Antrim) to fight tooth and nail for a single scrap of recognition. It also keeps hurling unpopular in football strongholds as kids never see their county playing on telly.

They are allowed in if they win promotion.

Hurling has been weak in most of these counties since the establishment of the association a game or two on the box isn't going to change that. In fact I'd argue the game in Westmeath, Meath, Carlow and Kerry is at the best standard in years.

OldMrBrennan83 · 11-06-2018 7:44pm

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LeinsterDub · 11-06-2018 7:47pm

JRant wrote: »

Of course it will never happen as it makes too much sense to HQ and those who are stuck in the past.

Do you honestly think its HQ? It's the provincial councils and counties themselves. Same as with football. Counties haven't won a game in the championship for years but 'this could be our year to win Sam'

phkk · 11-06-2018 7:53pm

JRant wrote: »

I've really enjoyed this year's championship so far but for the players that are out it's a hard pill to swallow if you are done and dusted by the first weekend off June.

IMO, the GAA already have the answer in both codes, ie the league format. This should absolutely be played on the firmer ground at this time of year. We would have a lot of cracking games to watch. If they shifted the league to start in April/May and did away with the antiquated Provincial system it would see a sea change for both codes. The calendar would also be cleared up for the club game.

Of course it will never happen as it makes too much sense to HQ and those who are stuck in the past.

+1 The only way to solve the current club fixtures crises is to have an open draw based league/championship home and away fixtures. Have a break between certain rounds for club championship and at least everybody knows when they are play

Coillte_Bhoy · 11-06-2018 7:56pm

Owryan wrote: »

Seems to me that relegation only became a bad thing because it was Offaly that was involved.

Listening to the draw the head guy of the gaa was asked if the system would be changed because, it sounded to me, it was Offaly that were relegated.

Much the same with those complaining that the Munster championship should be changed just because tipp were knocked out. Surely counties knew these risks when voting on on them.

Nobody has suggested that

JRant · 11-06-2018 7:57pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Do you honestly think its HQ? It's the provincial councils and counties themselves. Same as with football. Counties haven't won a game in the championship for years but 'this could be our year to win Sam'

Yeah, I should have been clearer really. When I said HQ I meant Congress which as you rightly point out is the provinces and counties themselves.

Look at the guff Dublin get for playing in CP yet it's not readily recognized that it is the Leinster council that keep voting on keeping them playing there as it increases revenue for all the teams.

Coillte_Bhoy · 11-06-2018 7:59pm

yesnow wrote: »

I was thinking about this in light of Offaly's recent relegation.

IMO not letting weaker teams into the SHC only keeps them weak, only playing sides of similar. The current system forces counties that aren't necessarily bad at hurling but aren't in the top ten (eg. Kerry, Antrim) to fight tooth and nail for a single scrap of recognition. It also keeps hurling unpopular in football strongholds as kids never see their county playing on telly.

I think if we had something more like the football championship (although it too has many flaws) hurling would be better off at a national level and make the sport more popular than it is now in most parts of the country.

Thoughts?

Thoughts? Absolutely ridiculous proposal. The gap between the top table in hurling and the rest is enormous, way more so than in football. Personally i have taken much more interest in Mayo hurling in recent years because they are playing at their own level and competing well, what benefit would there be to having them compete in a Connacht Cship with Galway and get beaten b 30 points?

puzl · 11-06-2018 8:31pm

The Gap is already very large even between LMC and JMD.

Even within LMC 70% of all all-irelands have been won by 3 counties.

Limerick in 4th haven't won since 73. Dublin in 5th haven't won since1938.

Since the introduction of the backdoor (the modern era) the only counties to have won outside of the big three are

Clare 3
Offaly 2
Wexford 1
Galway 1

Strong hurling counties like Waterford and limerick really struggle to get close to a chance to win. It's a brutal and ruthless tournament and the gulf between the top 10 and the bottom 10 makes it pointless to consolidate. I think moving Galway into Leinster has really helped them find the consistency needed to compete by allowing them to battle harden over the course of the early season and be prepared for what's needed to get over the line in September.

I think Offaly might actually so very well out of JMD if they take the right approach. They are in a very exciting prospect of playing JMD final in croke park next year and then squaring up to a 3rd place LMC team for a place in the QF.

On a related nnoted, I'dtually favour splitting football into two tournaments to be honest.

Bonniedog · 12-06-2018 12:07am

You get the odd football game where a third or fourth division team will give one of the big beasts a run for their money but there is no way a team like Louth hurlers would survive for five minutes against Kilkenny. There is such a vast difference in standards that tiered championship is only option.

It is also unfortunately the case that most counties couldn't give a somersaulting fart about hurling. It has always been a sport basically confined to 7/8 counties and even within that likes of Dublin are poor cousins. Cork, Cats and Tipp have won 90% of All Irelands.

CrabRevolution · 12-06-2018 12:18am

If the hurling went like football with a provincial open draw, and you got ties like Leitrim-Galway or Longford-Kilkenny, you'd simply see walkovers being given the minute the ball is drawn from the bowl. Galway could field 15 minors and would still give Leitrim a record breaking pasting.

I've seen Meath play the likes of Longford, Sligo, Louth, Donegal in competitive games over the years and the gap in quality is utterly astronomical. Then the gap between Meath and the top counties is probably the same again.

I'm shocked at how hurling ever survived in many counties before tiered competitions came in.

conor05 · 12-06-2018 12:37am

C__MC wrote: »

I think a major problem for teams at lower levels is the amount of players Playing from stronger counties playing then with the likes of donegal Sligo etc. I think this shouldn’t be allowed.
I’m not a fan of the joe mc Donagh getting a qualifier as it will be a turkey shoot. It’s amazing That the middle tier counties have never made any notable breakthrough in LMC. The finals of the lower tier competitions should be telivised and played before big game in Croke Park though

Any of the Joe McDonagh matches I was at, all the players were homegrown talents. I suppose good Hurling counties like Antrim’s, Carlows, Kerry and Laois would have enough good hurlers to not need outside hurlers nowadays.

But Counties down in the Nicky Rackard like Louth or Donegal would rely on guards and teachers from Hurling counties to make up the panel.

aidan24326 · 12-06-2018 4:31am

yesnow wrote: »

I think if we had something more like the football championship (although it too has many flaws) hurling would be better off at a national level and make the sport more popular than it is now in most parts of the country.

Thoughts?

It's not an option and won't be any time soon. The gap between the top teams and those in the lower tiered competitions is vast. Well-established second tier teams like Westmeath and Laois and Kerry struggle against the top Liam McCarthy teams when they play them, yet any of them would wallop teams in the Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher competitions.

It's actually hard to imagine a game between Galway and Sligo or Kilkenny and Longford, it would be like putting your local sunday morning soccer team up against a top professional side. That's no disrespect to those teams, it's just the reality of the massive gulf that's there.

The tiered structure in hurling is working well in giving teams meaningful games at their own level. As for Offaly, they've been in decline for a good number of years and if they have to lick their wounds in the JMcD Cup for a season then fair enough, they haven't been good enough and don't deserve any special treatment.

nice_guy80 · 12-06-2018 8:18am

when are they introducing it in the football?

J.pilkington · 12-06-2018 8:29am

slegs wrote: »

If Offaly were good enough they would have stayed up. If they become good enough they will get back. It’s the basic premise of promotion and relegation

And if Offaly had stayed up then we would be having the same conversation about Dublin. Something not right about the new Leinster championship format, they are trying to make the new format work just so they can make the ideal number of teams fit.

Hopefully Offaly can bounce back, they had a tough run of games this year and probably didn’t focus enough on their main game (Dublin). Hurling needs teams like Offaly who bring enthusiastic long term fans / great community spirt among the hurling clubs (incl youth). On the plus for hurling at least their football is going even worse

Hurling Rankings · 12-06-2018 9:05am

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Deiseen · 12-06-2018 9:10am

Could we not have a cup and a league? The cup would mean we have a pure knock out championship exactly like what the All Ireland use to be. Smaller teams would ship awful beatings BUT at least might create some exposure for them.
Then you could have a league similar to what we have now but tweaked for the summer.

realitykeeper · 12-06-2018 9:15am

yesnow wrote: »

I was thinking about this in light of Offaly's recent relegation.

IMO not letting weaker teams into the SHC only keeps them weak, only playing sides of similar. The current system forces counties that aren't necessarily bad at hurling but aren't in the top ten (eg. Kerry, Antrim) to fight tooth and nail for a single scrap of recognition. It also keeps hurling unpopular in football strongholds as kids never see their county playing on telly.

I think if we had something more like the football championship (although it too has many flaws) hurling would be better off at a national level and make the sport more popular than it is now in most parts of the country.

Thoughts?

Weaker counties need better coaches. These could be recruited from counties with a strong tradition in winning. It would be quite expensive but it would not be a long term cost to the GAA. A year or two of good coaching at senior level should bring about the culture shift needed in the weaker counties.

C__MC · 12-06-2018 9:19am

What about a team ulster or team Connacht?

C__MC · 12-06-2018 9:20am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Weaker counties need better coaches. These could be recruited from counties with a strong tradition in winning. It would be quite expensive but it would not be a long term cost to the GAA. A year or two of good coaching at senior level should bring about the culture shift needed in the weaker counties.

You are right but the turn over of players for weaker counties each year is crazy

Deiseen · 12-06-2018 9:20am

C__MC wrote: »

What about a team ulster or team Connacht?

I always thought about this. Surely two extra competitive teams could invigorate the championship?

Hurling Rankings · 12-06-2018 9:22am

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Hurling Rankings · 12-06-2018 9:25am

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Bonniedog · 12-06-2018 9:43am

There is no way in my opinion that counties who do not have a hurling tradition will ever take up the game seriously. As the post about Cavan proves, it is the preserve of a small number of clubs. Lisnaskea in Fermanagh be the equivalent of Mullahoran, Just not possible to get a competitive county team from such a small base.

Dublin is sort of strange in that hurling had mostly disappeared up to foundation of GAA. It was country fellas working here that made it a popular sport, and in a lot of cases it was and indeed is the offspring of those country lads who are mainstay of the game still. My own family is Tipperary originally and I would safely say that we would never have played hurling were it not for that. Other counties get the odd Garda and teacher who play, but not to same extent as Dublin did 100 years ago.

C__MC · 12-06-2018 10:19am

The decline of Antrim has been desperately sad. They have major population and the game is popular up there in parts but it is unlikely they''ll be back in the top table any time soon.

The hurling landscape wont change anytime soon I would think. The Dublin revolution at the start of this decade was great. Imagine if dublin won the double in 2013! But as others have said, the gap is so big between each competition. Leitrim were out of their depth this year in the NR. Derry were in the NR last year and absolutely walked it.

The whole hurling thing is hard in Ireland. It just isnt' popular in parts. People say we should promote the game more in the lower competitions but the publicity isn't there. I love to see it promoted like League Two in England but they do not get the crowds. You would be lucky to get 50 at a Lorey Meaher game.

I says · 12-06-2018 10:34am

I’m all for this new format as was said earlier scrap the league and have 2 groups of six open draw and winners and runners up in groups qualify for AI semifinals. Home and away format the JMD cup has been a great addition maybe if RTÉ showed a highlights package on a Monday night or the GAA sold the rights of it to TV3 might help it

conor05 · 12-06-2018 4:55pm

Hurling Rankings wrote: »

The parish I'm living in at the moment fields 3 adult clubs at senior, intermediate and junior.

In Cavan, Mullahoran won every county title between 1990 and 2010, the Cavan championship was basically Mullahoran versus an amalgamation of every other player who can hurl in the rest of the county.

For years they only had 2 or 3 adult hurling teams in the county, there are clubs in traditional hurling counties that have as many clubs and players as that entire county had.

As far as I'm aware Cavan have a few more clubs now, but you have a number of counties who only have no more than a dozen adult hurling teams to choose from. In Limerick, there are about 52 unique clubs who field 86 adult teams in this years county championships at all 5 grades (Senior, Premier Intermediate, Intermediate, Junior A, Junior .

There'd be three or four counties with greater playing numbers with Limerick in that respect, that's one end of the scale. The likes of Cavan, Sligo, Fermanagh, Leitrim are at the other end of the scale, and there are many levels in between.

The hurling championship is structured quite well, taking into account the various demographics involved.

A county with say only 16 adult teams to pick from is not going to be able to compete with a county with 60+ teams to pick from. Changing the structures of the senior county championships will do nothing to change that, it won't magically make football only clubs all over the country decide tomorrow morning they're going to go dual and spend years putting in a concerted effort to promote and train and develop underage hurlers and hope that enough of them stick around long enough to eventually be able to field decent adult teams down the line.

Final point, I think the Ring and Rackard Cups have been brilliant. The Meagher Cup was a shrewd introduction as it recognised the gulf between the top and bottom sides in both the former competitions and enabled all counties in all three tiers to play against a smaller number of teams who were all more closely matched. The McDonagh Cup has further improved matters, providing a competitive national championship for a handful of teams who were a bit too strong for Ring Cup hurling and not strong enough to be contenders for the McCarthy Cup.

As it stands the vast majority of counties can realistically aspire to win a national title at Croke Park, take the tiered competitions away and that dream is taken away from all bar the usual suspects in the traditional counties.

Great post!

I can stand over the gulf in class between each tier.
I have seen quite a few Kildare Hurling matches.
Kildare (Christy Ring) played Louth (Nicky Rackard) a few years back in a preseason cup and absolutely walloped them. Game over after about 20 minutes.
Later that year Kerry played Kildare in the semi final of the Christy Ring cup and Kerry absolutely hammered Kildare 6-27 to 0-9.

That’s why kerry and the likes of Antrim needed a new tier like the JMD Cup. Great idea.

It will take as long for Louth and Donegal to reach the standard of Kerry and Carlow as it will for Kerry and Carlow to reach the level of Galway.

Should the tiered hurling championships be abolished?

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