Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Squidgy Black · 08-06-2018 12:28PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

Really? That's 3 players actually developed at Ulster. Population of 2m, with a club and school system, and that can't be criticised?

5 current players + 1 plying his trade in Ulster who wasn't a starting player at a province before he moved.........

launish116 · 08-06-2018 12:29PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

Squidgy Black wrote: »

You can also add Treadwell (last season) and Herring to that list.

And not to mention the U20 contingent from Ulster.

I don't think you can criticise Ulster's contribution to the national team at the moment.

Really? That's 3 players actually developed at Ulster. Population of 2m, with a club and school system, and that can't be criticised?

Ye cause Munster, Connacht have done much better. If anything Munster Academy is in a worse way than Ulster's presently.
We genuinely have potential coming through and with lack of experienced/leadership these academy players are gonna be expected to step straight up next season and fill gaps. You don't see leinster parachuting players into matches. They play academy players in balanced teams and offer them proper/meaningful experience.

Neil3030 · 08-06-2018 12:31PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

5 current players + 1 plying his trade in Ulster who wasn't a starting player at a province before he moved.........

Best, Henderson, Stockdale - who am I missing that Ulster developed?

launish116 · 08-06-2018 12:35PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

Squidgy Black wrote: »

5 current players + 1 plying his trade in Ulster who wasn't a starting player at a province before he moved.........

Best, Henderson, Stockdale - who am I missing that Ulster developed?

Cooney getting a shot now due to form in Ulster?
It's all well good quoting x amount in squad, them 3 are nailed on starters.

Former Former · 08-06-2018 12:36PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

You can also add Treadwell (last season) and Herring to that list.

And not to mention the U20 contingent from Ulster.

I don't think you can criticise Ulster's contribution to the national team at the moment.

It's really not enough. Three Ulster players played in the Six Nations. That's the same number as Connacht. (now, the Ulster lads were more central to the effort but on pure numbers, that's how it came out).

So now we have five Ulster guys in the summer squad, that's an improvement and it's six if you count Jordi Murphy, which is even better - but it's still shy of where it should be.

The point is, IRFU will want to get to the point where Ulster are providing 8 to 10 of a 35-man squad. That's the sort of numbers they should be hitting consistently. If Irish players have to move from other provinces, if NIQs have to be restricted, then that's what has to happen.

But no, Ulster have not been contributing enough.

Edit; to clarify, I'm not criticizing Ulster, these things are often cyclical - but if the province is demanding to sign NIQs, the IRFU are very likely to ask, "well, what are we getting in return?" and I don't think Ulster have much collateral in terms of arguing their point.

Neil3030 · 08-06-2018 12:42PM

launish116 wrote: »

Ye cause Munster, Connacht have done much better. If anything Munster Academy is in a worse way than Ulster's presently.
We genuinely have potential coming through and with lack of experienced/leadership these academy players are gonna be expected to step straight up next season and fill gaps. You don't see leinster parachuting players into matches. They play academy players in balanced teams and offer them proper/meaningful experience.

Leadership is vital, you're correct. And were it not for the IRFU stepping in, Ulster would have filled this void with Elton Juanties.

launish116 · 08-06-2018 12:44PM

Former Former wrote: »

The point is, IRFU will want to get to the point where Ulster are providing 8 to 10 of a 35-man squad. That's the numbers they should be hitting consistently. If Irish players have to move from other provinces, if NIQs have to be restricted, then that's what has to happen.

But no, Ulster have not been contributing enough.

The sooner the IRFU realise restricting NIQ is not the sole issue. In most cases past internationals have developed so vastly due to the help/guidance/experience of these NIQ's. Ironically look at Jackson, would he have reached international level beside Marshal, or was it Pienaar?
International players reach that level from exposure to top level rugby, not by moving unwanted Irish players to other provinces. If the player moving isn't better than what's there what is the point.
If Ulster secure a decent 2nd row and possibly two decent backline players, and maximise academy exposure in a controlled environment, IRFU will see the benefit. This short sighted opinion Provinces under-developing internationals is going to turn around by restricting signings and forcing novice players to suddenly step up is a complete joke.
The current system currently works great for Leinster and that's because unlike us clowns they've had decent structures in place for years and the academy is producing and has been. Unlike us who are playing catch up and only starting to produce. Current rules will be sustainable but only in 3-5 years for the rest of the provinces. This is were IRFU and Nuc need to help, not force restrictions.

launish116 · 08-06-2018 12:47PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

launish116 wrote: »

Ye cause Munster, Connacht have done much better. If anything Munster Academy is in a worse way than Ulster's presently.
We genuinely have potential coming through and with lack of experienced/leadership these academy players are gonna be expected to step straight up next season and fill gaps. You don't see leinster parachuting players into matches. They play academy players in balanced teams and offer them proper/meaningful experience.

Leadership is vital, you're correct. And were it not for the IRFU stepping in, Ulster would have filled this void with Elton Juanties.

Completely agree, but IRFU aren't the masterminds we hope for. He definitely isn't what we need.
Pienaar dilemma showed various things. IRFU decision to restrict was correct, but there implement left Ulster high and dry. If Cooney hadn't of came along are season would of been even worse. The rise of Cooney was his own work not IRFU help.

08-06-2018 12:49PM

launish116 wrote: »

Completely agree, but IRFU aren't the masterminds we hope for. He definitely isn't what we need.
Pienaar dilemma showed various things. IRFU decision to restrict was correct, but there implement left Ulster high and dry. If Cooney hadn't of came along are season would of been even worse. The rise of Cooney was his own work not IRFU help.

Cooney told his agent to approach Ulster because Pienaar was going.

Which means that the IRFU decision worked

awec · 08-06-2018 12:52PM

Former Former wrote: »

It's really not enough. Three Ulster players played in the Six Nations. That's the same number as Connacht. (now, the Ulster lads were more central to the effort but on pure numbers, that's how it came out).

So now we have five Ulster guys in the summer squad, that's an improvement and it's six if you count Jordi Murphy, which is even better - but it's still shy of where it should be.

The point is, IRFU will want to get to the point where Ulster are providing 8 to 10 of a 35-man squad. That's the sort of numbers they should be hitting consistently. If Irish players have to move from other provinces, if NIQs have to be restricted, then that's what has to happen.

But no, Ulster have not been contributing enough.

Edit; to clarify, I'm not criticizing Ulster, these things are often cyclical - but if the province is demanding to sign NIQs, the IRFU are very likely to ask, "well, what are we getting in return?" and I don't think Ulster have much collateral in terms of arguing their point.

Ulster have lagged for sure in forwards, but we have produced a good number of irish players. Off the top of my head in the last few years:

Bowe
Trimble
Gilroy
Marshall
Olding
Jackson
McCloskey
Stockdale
Farrell
Arnold
Cave

Cooney
Best
Henderson

Not enough forwards, but a decent number of players. It's not Ulster's fault they don't get picked. Ulster produce the players, Ulster (or any province) can hardly be punished based on the number the IRFU decide to use at test level.

bilston · 08-06-2018 12:53PM

6 New pages on this thread since this morning. I was certain that Joe Schmidt had agreed to take over as coach and he was bringing Jonny Sexton North with him.

Then I read the thread...I wish I hadn't...

bilston · 08-06-2018 12:58PM

awec wrote: »

Former Former wrote: »

It's really not enough. Three Ulster players played in the Six Nations. That's the same number as Connacht. (now, the Ulster lads were more central to the effort but on pure numbers, that's how it came out).

So now we have five Ulster guys in the summer squad, that's an improvement and it's six if you count Jordi Murphy, which is even better - but it's still shy of where it should be.

The point is, IRFU will want to get to the point where Ulster are providing 8 to 10 of a 35-man squad. That's the sort of numbers they should be hitting consistently. If Irish players have to move from other provinces, if NIQs have to be restricted, then that's what has to happen.

But no, Ulster have not been contributing enough.

Edit; to clarify, I'm not criticizing Ulster, these things are often cyclical - but if the province is demanding to sign NIQs, the IRFU are very likely to ask, "well, what are we getting in return?" and I don't think Ulster have much collateral in terms of arguing their point.

Ulster have lagged for sure in forwards, but we have produced a good number of irish players. Off the top of my head in the last few years:

Bowe
Trimble
Gilroy
Marshall
Olding
Jackson
McCloskey
Stockdale
Farrell
Arnold
Cave

Cooney
Best
Henderson

Not enough forwards, but a decent number of players. It's not Ulster's fault they don't get picked. Ulster produce the players, Ulster (or any province) can hardly be punished based on the number the IRFU decide to use at test level.

McCloskey and Gilroy have been unlucky IMO. But their style doesn't sit well with Joe. Joe's record can't be questioned, but under another coach bith would probably win more caps.

There's also Nevin, it's impossible to know how his career would have developed but he would surely have won caps for Ireland.

It's been said a couple of times but in another life Ferris (just about) and Pollock would still be playing. Pollock was another one destined for test caps.

The last 3 or 4 years have been poor only really Stockdale has come through. That's not good enough.

Neil3030 · 08-06-2018 12:59PM

launish116 wrote: »

Completely agree, but IRFU aren't the masterminds we hope for. He definitely isn't what we need.
Pienaar dilemma showed various things. IRFU decision to restrict was correct, but there implement left Ulster high and dry. If Cooney hadn't of came along are season would of been even worse. The rise of Cooney was his own work not IRFU help.

Not sure I agree. If the IRFU hadn't stood firm on a very unpopular decision, Cooney may well still be second choice in Connacht.

molloyjh · 08-06-2018 01:59PM

awec wrote: »

Ulster (or any province) can hardly be punished based on the number the IRFU decide to use at test level.

Well of course they can. Developing a body that isn't up to international rugby hardly counts from the perspective of the national side.

The population of Munster is about 60% that of Ulster (and there are large parts of the province that wouldn't touch a rugby ball over a GAA ball or a sliotar). Munsters Academy has struggled over the last decade or so to produce top class talent. And yet Munster are still contributing more to Ireland than Ulster are.

Ulster are clearly under performing. And if you're in a mutually beneficial relationship then you can expect to get back what you put in. If what you put in is poor you can't expect to get a great return, can you?

launish116 · 08-06-2018 02:20PM

Different coach’s pick different players....as already stated Gilroy, McCloskey could walk on to other teams. The game plan is different so specific players are chose. You can be international standard and not make the squad.

This hole numbers game is completely wrong!
If IRFU want international standard players, stopping hindering teams by forcing them to play players who arn’t Up to standard. Players get better playing at a higher level when exposed to it. Restricting Ulster this season has done feck all for developement has it? Only Rea has really surfaced.

Leinster is a pure exception to this, they could realistically take on a few international teams and win.

molloyjh · 08-06-2018 02:28PM

launish116 wrote: »

Restricting Ulster this season has done feck all for developement has it?

And retaining Peinaar for several years did what exactly? Development isn't something that happens in 12 months. It takes years. Ulster have had years. They've still developed feck all. It's not like this season was an outlier.

arsebiscuits1 · 08-06-2018 02:40PM

Ding dong

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/17422.php#.WxqVWu4vxpg

irishbucsfan · 08-06-2018 02:40PM

Logan is gone according to JB

irishbucsfan · 08-06-2018 02:42PM

Time for the IRFU to get the finger out and help to find someone really decent!

MJohnston · 08-06-2018 02:45PM

Nucifora In.

Neil3030 · 08-06-2018 02:49PM

In typical Ulster fashion, they'll promote from within. Step forward, Rodney Ah You.

launish116 · 08-06-2018 02:52PM

molloyjh wrote: »

launish116 wrote: »

Restricting Ulster this season has done feck all for developement has it?

And retaining Peinaar for several years did what exactly? Development isn't something that happens in 12 months. It takes years. Ulster have had years. They've still developed feck all. It's not like this season was an outlier.

There is no denial of Peinaar's case. But with what Ulster have had to work with you can argue the reason he had so much game time. I for one am glad Cooney arrived, he's been very very good and well worth his call up!
My argument is this season has been utter ****e; ****e selections, site injuries, ****e coaching and ****e must win games.
Not the environment to bring in academy players and develop them. This is were I feel the IRFU must aid the provinces. Ulster truly for the first time have a crop of potentially decent academy players coming through. With potential to play/progress for Ulster for the next ten years. If I was the IRFU I would be seeing who could help these young players develop not restricting team building a good squad. The likes of Pienaar helped Jackson undoubtedly, likewise Coetzee is helping our back rows. Until Ulster have a squad capable of rotation, development will stall.
Personally I feel Ulster should be gaged on these academy players going forward, rather than reminded how pathetic the academy has been and it has been pathetic.
Leinster is at least 5 years at head of all the provinces, and their production line should be a end goal not a current barometer.
Ps. good to hear on Logan. Hopefully we get a true Ulsterman with a passion for rugby and not a job for the boys.

Buer · 08-06-2018 02:53PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Time for the IRFU to get the finger out and help to find someone really decent!

Bryn Cunningham is polishing his CV as we post.

Neil3030 · 08-06-2018 02:55PM

Neil Doak has just stepped down from Campbell College..... COINCIDENCE?

DGRulz · 08-06-2018 03:13PM

So regardless of who gets the job now, when will they be available to start? September 2021 is probably about right.

jacothelad · 08-06-2018 04:25PM

MJohnston wrote: »

What you don't seem to want to understand is that it doesn't need to go beyond that.

You are not the arbiter of what posters on here can legitimately discuss. You seem to have a huge flea in your ear about these two. Perhaps you were at every second of the trial or are possession of information not available to the jury. I am happy to discuss them in terms of their rugby. If you don't want to read what posters might post that upset you then there is the option to block them.

jacothelad · 08-06-2018 04:28PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'll reword that as the wording was misleading - I don't think it's fair when discussion of the trial is banned that it should be okay to try and bait people into that discussion.

Then why are you doing it? No one else is.

jacothelad · 08-06-2018 04:31PM

Former Former wrote: »

Players out.

Too late.....

Digifriendly · 08-06-2018 04:38PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

Neil Doak has just stepped down from Campbell College..... COINCIDENCE?

Neil is on his way to Worcester Warriors. This was announced weeks ago.

mfceiling · 08-06-2018 04:40PM

Former Former wrote: »

More.

Can you give us an exact figure? 6, 3, 14? I don't buy in to this nonsense of ulster providing more. Why are Munster not providing more second rows now that DOC AND POC are gone? Why have they not produced any decent homegrown centres and had to take in Ulster hand me downs?
Maybe and I know this is hard to believe, that other provinces have better players and there's nobody in another province who can get near that level.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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