Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

stephen_n

You never think of multiquoting Jaco? :pac:

Paul Smeenus

Oh good, the "Ulster are underproducing" discussion again.

Guys why not save yourselves valuable time and just cut and paste your opinions from when this debate happened last week?

And people moan about the same old Rob Kearney talk...

Hands Like Flippers

MJohnston wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I hold the opinion (and I think it's pretty common on here) that without knowing one way or the other - you give everyone the same benefit of the doubt, them and her.

Except you haven't demonstrated that at all on here.

Yawn.

Hands Like Flippers

Neil3030 wrote: »

Neil Doak has just stepped down from Campbell College..... COINCIDENCE?

Away to Worchester I think

Dubinusa

Ulster have a host of youngsters coming through that could challenge for international caps. Timoney and Rea spring to mind. O'Toole could be the Ulster th for the next 10 years and Dalton will probably be on a senior contract next year.
Agnew, Hall and Dunleavy are also good quality youngsters. All is not lost.

mfceiling

molloyjh wrote: »

And yet Munster are still contributing more to Ireland than Ulster are.

POM, Murray and Earls are homegrown starters for this year's 6N. Stander was a project.
Am I missing anyone else?

Former Former

mfceiling wrote: »

Can you give us an exact figure? 6, 3, 14? I don't buy in to this nonsense of ulster providing more. Why are Munster not providing more second rows now that DOC AND POC are gone? Why have they not produced any decent homegrown centres and had to take in Ulster hand me downs?
Maybe and I know this is hard to believe, that other provinces have better players and there's nobody in another province who can get near that level.

See, this is the problem. It's not nonsense. If you're genuinely interested in where I'm coming from on this, read on. If you just want to continue believing that IRFU are the problem and everything would be OK if only Ulster were left alone, you stop here.

You've cited Munster and their second rows post-POC and DOC. That's a big gap to fill; except they had Donnacha Ryan too. They even have Billy Holland who's super-average but can fill a jersey in a Tier 2 game - but in the meantime, they went out and got a very decent project player in Jean Kleyn who will be eligible just in time for the RWC if needed. And then they brought in Tadhg Beirne on top of that.

Munster haven't produced home-grown centres in ages, Scannell is pretty decent but the Saili/Taute thing left a bit of a sour taste - but again, they went and they got Chris Farrell and Sam Arnold.

So they turned two positions of weakness into positions of strength for the national team, and they did so in two seasons.

The issue of Ulster being "under-represented" in the national team is not a new one. This isn't a blip. I'd struggle to remember a time when the first-choice 23 had many more than three or four Ulster players in it. But so what?

The national team is, for better or worse, the main focus of IRFU. We're 15 months out from a World Cup; the provinces are going to be subjugated even more than usual because another RWC flop just can't be countenanced.

So you're Joe and Nucifora, and you're looking at your squad depth. And you're looking at Ulster, the second-largest province in terms of population, player numbers, schools, supporters, whatever else -it's not enough. There isn't a hard number that it should be, but anyone who says that Ulster providing less than a fifth of the national squad is acceptable, the IRFU management won't agree with you.

Maybe the fans don't care. I think it's obvious from this thread that many don't. Fair enough. As I said, there's a growing resentment among Ulster fans towards the IRFU and that can only lead to detachment from the national team. You can see that on this forum, clear as day. Without a significant Ulster contingent in the national squad, that's only going to get worse and I think that's a very, very bad development.

bilston

Dubinusa wrote: »

Ulster have a host of youngsters coming through that could challenge for international caps. Timoney and Rea spring to mind. O'Toole could be the Ulster th for the next 10 years and Dalton will probably be on a senior contract next year.
Agnew, Hall and Dunleavy are also good quality youngsters. All is not lost.

Not sure Timoney will ever play for Ireland. Rea MIGHT get a cap here and there. He has certainly developed a lot this season, but he is 24 or 25 already. Given the back row depth in Ireland I think he will probably fall a bit short. He can still be very good for Ulster.

It's way too early to say with the rest, although O'Toole looks every bit a future international to me. But then he has some very good players to compete against in Furlong and Porter and both are young, particularly Porter. I've only seen bits of Agnew and Dunleavy...they have potential but other than that it's hard to say.

Paul Smeenus

Former Former wrote: »

mfceiling wrote: »

Can you give us an exact figure? 6, 3, 14? I don't buy in to this nonsense of ulster providing more. Why are Munster not providing more second rows now that DOC AND POC are gone? Why have they not produced any decent homegrown centres and had to take in Ulster hand me downs?
Maybe and I know this is hard to believe, that other provinces have better players and there's nobody in another province who can get near that level.

See, this is the problem. It's not nonsense. If you're genuinely interested in where I'm coming from on this, read on. If you just want to continue believing that IRFU are the problem and everything would be OK if only Ulster were left alone, you stop here.

You've cited Munster and their second rows post-POC and DOC. That's a big gap to fill; except they had Donnacha Ryan too. They even have Billy Holland who's super-average but can fill a jersey in a Tier 2 game - but in the meantime, they went out and got a very decent project player in Jean Kleyn who will be eligible just in time for the RWC if needed. And then they brought in Tadhg Beirne on top of that.

Munster haven't produced home-grown centres in ages, Scannell is pretty decent but the Saili/Taute thing left a bit of a sour taste - but again, they went and they got Chris Farrell and Sam Arnold.

So they turned two positions of weakness into positions of strength for the national team, and they did so in two seasons.

The issue of Ulster being "under-represented" in the national team is not a new one. This isn't a blip. I'd struggle to remember a time when the first-choice 23 had many more than three or four Ulster players in it. But so what?

The national team is, for better or worse, the main focus of IRFU. We're 15 months out from a World Cup; the provinces are going to be subjugated even more than usual because another RWC flop just can't be countenanced.

So you're Joe and Nucifora, and you're looking at your squad depth. And you're looking at Ulster, the second-largest province in terms of population, player numbers, schools, supporters, whatever else -it's not enough. There isn't a hard number that it should be, but anyone who says that Ulster providing less than a fifth of the national squad is acceptable, the IRFU management won't agree with you.

Maybe the fans don't care. I think it's obvious from this thread that many don't. Fair enough. As I said, there's a growing resentment among Ulster fans towards the IRFU and that can only lead to detachment from the national team. You can see that on this forum, clear as day. Without a significant Ulster contingent in the national squad, that's only going to get worse and I think that's a very, very bad development.

I 100% want us to produce more players for Ireland, but it's much more nuanced than a simple headcount.  And that analysis doesn't hold much water for me. Any situation where Munster are getting kudos over Ulster for producing Billy Holland, I'm pretty much going to dismiss.

awec

This is it now. No more excuses.

Doak is gone. Clarke is gone. Kiss is gone. Logan is gone.

Ulster Rugby is at a crossroads.

Paul Smeenus

I'm excited about next season. We won't win anything, and may even do worse. But we are capable of moving forward. And I suspect, this refashioning of club rugby may help us as much as anything.

The big issue is that someone with terrestrial TV in Northern Ireland will be able to watch zero live rugby. That's massive.

awec

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I'm excited about next season. We won't win anything, and may even do worse. But we are capable of moving forward. And I suspect, this refashioning of club rugby may help us as much as anything.

The big issue is that someone with terrestrial TV in Northern Ireland will be able to watch zero live rugby. That's massive.

The new TV deal is going to be hugely detrimental to Ulster Rugby.



If we see improvements next year, or at least look to be building toward something, that's great.

Dubinusa

I think Ulster will be good next year. A couple of decent signings and some stability and you never know.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

This is it now. No more excuses.

Doak is gone. Clarke is gone. Kiss is gone. Logan is gone.

Ulster Rugby is at a crossroads.

With a finger out, looking for direction

pickarooney

Former Former wrote: »

In fairness to my analysis, someone who takes "Billy Holland is super-average" as the key message isn't really the sort of audience I was going for.

Careful now Paul. With your incredibly poor understanding of pretty basic concepts and your toxic interpersonal skills, you might find yourself nominated for the Ulster CEO job.

FFS, is there any need to talk like that?

Squidgy Black

pickarooney wrote: »

FFS, is there any need to talk like that?

I would give the benefit of the doubt and say he had a few too many last night as he's deleted the post.

jacothelad

pickarooney wrote: »

FFS, is there any need to talk like that?

Dreadful stuff from FF but he has just been appointed as deputy first reserve junior rugby correspondent for the Beano. That has given him an even more hyper-inflated opinion of his own verbosity if that's possible - which I doubt. Still, there is no excuse for such vile crap.

bilston

I seem to remember one or two rumours likking us with Kolisi a year or two ago. He'd have been some signing.

awec

bilston wrote: »

I seem to remember one or two rumours likking us with Kolisi a year or two ago. He'd have been some signing.

Was thinking the same myself!

bilston

bilston wrote: »

I seem to remember one or two rumours likking us with Kolisi a year or two ago. He'd have been some signing.

The mother of dragons would have been an epic signing

bilston

Rob Herring went well today. It's not that crazy to think he could be Ireland's first choice hooker post 2019.

Good to see him go well. He finished the season strongly for us.

Buer

bilston wrote: »

Rob Herring went well today. It's not that crazy to think he could be Ireland's first choice hooker post 2019.

I actually think it's quite likely.

launish116

sydthebeat wrote: »

awec wrote: »

This is it now. No more excuses.

Doak is gone. Clarke is gone. Kiss is gone. Logan is gone.

Ulster Rugby is at a crossroads.

With a finger out, looking for direction

Not forgetting no coach, no head of S&C etc. Not like we’ll need them for pre-season

salmocab

bilston wrote: »

Rob Herring went well today. It's not that crazy to think he could be Ireland's first choice hooker post 2019.

Good to see him go well. He finished the season strongly for us.

I like him, reminds me of Best he’s just a good solid player nothing flashy nothing stupid.

launish116

salmocab wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Rob Herring went well today. It's not that crazy to think he could be Ireland's first choice hooker post 2019.

Good to see him go well. He finished the season strongly for us.

I like him, reminds me of Best he’s just a good solid player nothing flashy nothing stupid.

He seems to getting back to his best form again. Wonder will Australia target the line out more next time! God Cronin must be gutted lol

salmocab

launish116 wrote: »

He seems to getting back to his best form again. Wonder will Australia target the line out more next time! God Cronin must be gutted lol

Ah Cronin will get his chance, probably next week. A lot of rugby to be played before the WC

bilston

Herring is beginning to reap the rewards for his patience.

One player I forgot post WC is Rhys Marshall. I think he will be a great asset to the Irish set up (once you get past the whole project thing).

bilston

launish116 wrote: »

salmocab wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Rob Herring went well today. It's not that crazy to think he could be Ireland's first choice hooker post 2019.

Good to see him go well. He finished the season strongly for us.

I like him, reminds me of Best he’s just a good solid player nothing flashy nothing stupid.

He seems to getting back to his best form again. Wonder will Australia target the line out more next time! God Cronin must be gutted lol

I reckon Cronin will start next week.

launish116

Hopefully Cooney gets a chance also! But the Ulster side of me hopes he doesn’t!

Dubinusa

I think Scannell will get a look next week. Maybe from the bench, but it would be good to see how he'd perform from the start. He could also be Bests replacement in the future. Seems like Treacy ie not in the mix.