A Slow Journey to Faster Times

Itziger · 06-06-2018 08:04AM

yaboya1 wrote: »

Itziger wrote: »

Especially points like your last! You could have done a smashing neg split 3:15 or something but would that have taught you anything in the long run??
Anyway, welcome back. Are you actually signed up for Valencia? I haven't chosen an Autumn/Winter marathon yet.........

I could have, and was reminded of same and my original intentions shortly after the race. I don't disagree for a second. On the plus side, all these failures will make the future victory all the more enjoyable

I'm signed up and paid up for Valencia. Flights, accommodation and everything. Even if last Sunday soured me, I have to do it unless I want to burn the money.

You joining me for a go at 2:50??

Sure, yeah. *Insert sardonic voice over here*
Seriously though, I haven't booked or signed up for anything. In fact I have a minor fly in the ointment with accommodation and the in-laws. The father-in-law is really pushing on and staying in his place is less and less of an option. Brother-in-law is very central but it's a tiny place and yet 'herself' would freak out if I paid for somewhere. I might get away with saying, I'm sharing an Air BnB with a couple of Boardsies near the start/finish........
As for the target. A small dinosaur in the ointment with that too.
Being a tad more serious, I'll probably be aiming for 2.54 or .56 depending on how training goes. I just can't convert my Half times to Full. We should form a club!!

OOnegative · 06-06-2018 09:07AM

Hard luck P, sub 2.50 no bother in Valencia, you'll smash it.......:pac::pac::pac:!! Love the honesty as always in you posts, your right you shouldn't have tried sub 3 but better to try than not try at all to. Starting to believe you about those race calculators, only think they predict for a lot of us is rubbish. Great to see you back.

Duanington · 06-06-2018 09:50AM

Good stuff P - that should set you up for a good shot at PD version 2.0 over the 2nd half of the year.

The point re converting shorter distance times to potential marathon times is a great one, I read\hear more and more stuff like that of late and find that its almost impossible to sway people's opinion on it.

Re the MP session, that's a hard one to call given that some people sail through them and can't hit the pace on the day whereas others have to grind them out and can hit the pace on the day. Great to see you sharing your experience of it though, I think there is definitely a fine line there in terms of a tough session and an unrealistic aspiration.

One of the best posts on boards in a good while, good to see it.

shotgunmcos · 06-06-2018 11:44AM

Interesting log and really interesting how your faster shorter races are not translating to the expected marathon results with the marathon plans .

I don't subscribe to those predictors either. To me they are averages of thousands of 3hr marathon runners who ran a range of times at those distances.

Don't mean to derail your thread into a discussion though, that I'm sure has been debated on the forum before. Just came on to say Kudos for sticking with the pain. Its demoralizing watching your target pace group drift away and then another one to pass by happily cheering on the next band. I've been there with up to +50 minute 2nd half results! Pretty Grim but in some way more satisfying to fight the pain and finish on your own terms than walking off (Which I did once and the shame still burns my cheeks).

A quick thought on long runs. Be less of a slave to the numbers and do some of those long runs with MP segments on RPE. Check the numbers afterward to confirm what your current fitness level is telling you rather than lining up against what a book tells you, you should be doing. Sometimes aiming to keep a similar pace on the training runs you inject more effort in places and less in others. RPE will regulate your effort and could yield some valuable insight

yaboya1 · 06-06-2018 12:36PM

shotgunmcos wrote: »

A quick thought on long runs. Be less of a slave to the numbers and do some of those long runs with MP segments on RPE. Check the numbers afterward to confirm what your current fitness level is telling you rather than lining up against what a book tells you, you should be doing. Sometimes aiming to keep a similar pace on the training runs you inject more effort in places and less in others. RPE will regulate your effort and could yield some valuable insight

Definitely not derailing the thread. Very interesting stuff.
One possibly stupid question though, what's RPE?

Race pace effort??

shotgunmcos · 06-06-2018 01:42PM

Groovy.
RPE is Rate of Perceived Effort. At its most basic a scale of 1-10 (Borg, Livestrong have other scales but all same stuff), 1 barely jogging and 10 sprinting all out. If MP were to fall in 150-160hr range or 80-87% you could call it an 8 out of 10. Could you run on feel at an 8 out of 10? Or start at a 7 and increase to 8 etc..?

It looks like a lot of your long run pace segments were averaging at the upper if not over the upper end of the MP range. If your average was 164 what was your max and how much time did you spend above it? If the plan says to run at % range that equates to 150-160 HR it doesn't mean run every mile at 160 HR average. Having an average value that shows 160 would indicate that you ran at a steady 160 or you spent time above it, burning the crust. I used to focus on that average HR squeezing the best pace I could from the range. I looked back over my diary from 2011/12 recently and see so much volume so close to MP, its a wonder I didn't burn out and not just crash after 2 hours of a marathon.

Because I'm just back to running and developing the aerobic base first. Its boring capped HR running but after 5 weeks of it I already can feel the difference between 140, 150 and 160hr effort without looking at the watch. The cap can be frustrating but it really has me tuned into effort

Focusing on the average HR is dangerous. You are likely to be over a lot. Focusing on max or at least assigning the same importance, changes the approach and you learn to dial it back. I find teaches you how to hold something in the tank. That could yield dividends at 2 hours+ as it doesn't come into play so much in 10k to half marathon.

Ok I'm waffling now but its just strange how your 5k and half marathon times are probably better than most 3hr runners (I ran 3:00:20 at Connemara with a 2.5 min positive split and my 5k was 18+ HM 1:23+) yet your Marathons are not yielding similar relative success. The interesting thing about my result at Connemara is that I did not train for nor set out for a sub 3. I thought 3:20 would be great. I remember just running "within myself" for the first half and it felt almost easy. I was training for my first Ironman and in pretty good shape. Most of the running that winter was aerobic base capped running.

You are clearly disciplined about executing the plan (I've only read back over the last 2 years of your log) perhaps its a hint of control or a slightly different approach rather than a change of effort that could be the difference?

yaboya1 · 06-06-2018 02:14PM

You're not waffling.
Everything you say above makes a lot of sense.

I think you're referring to my London 2017 training when you talk about 164bpm avg MP runs though. I didn't keep a log this time around, but my MP sections in the long runs for Cork all averaged below 160bpm. I've managed to average 160bpm in both London 2017 & Cork 2018, so I'm fairly certain that's the effort I'm capable of for an entire marathon. That's close to 90% of my max (180bpm). The trick is to increase the pace at that effort

Whatever plan I follow for Valencia, the intention is to replace MP with ME. I think this will be far more beneficial, as I won't run the risk of burnout and the body will become very familiar with that effort which can only be a good thing.

I think you're onto something with trying to gauge the effort myself. I'm actually good at that in races, but never do it in training. Not for easy runs, but when trying to hold a steady HR for 60-75mins during previous HADD training, I was constantly checking the monitor to ensure I was at the target HR instead of trusting my own gut which I know is pretty good from experience in races of all distances.

p.s. Thanks for the feedback. This is the sort of stuff I miss about this place

jake1970 · 06-06-2018 02:30PM

Great to see this log active again P.

yaboya1 wrote: »

Thanks Luke.
I completely agree with you (on a separate note, what's with an argumentative fcuker like me agreeing with everyone?? :pac:).
It's like it almost would have been too easy. Sunday taught me that I'll need to work to get back there and although I've had the "I'm never ever doing this again" post-marathon feeling in the past, on Sunday I had a "I need to right this wrong" feeling while I struggled through the second half. I still feel like that, but am aware that can't happen without a solid build up and no short cuts.

If you can maintain this attitude through a well executed marathon training cycle I have no doubt that you will get sub 3. Best of luck with the training and keep logging here so we can keep an eye on you.

hot buttered scones · 06-06-2018 04:22PM

yaboya1 wrote: »

......t, on Sunday I had a "I need to right this wrong" feeling while I struggled through the second half. I still feel like that, but am aware that can't happen without a solid build up and no short cuts.

I've always described that feeling as having "unfinished business" and find it to be a great motivator to do things properly in training i.e. DFIU!

ger664 · 08-06-2018 02:36PM

Welcome back P. I thought we had discussed Point 2 at length in O'Neills many moons ago. Again lessons are best learnt from experience. I suspect it might be next spring before you will get back to PB shape. Train well and Valencia will be a good stepping stone to sub 2:50

A Slow Journey to Faster Times

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