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The Jews can revive a dead language reserved for ceremonial purposes

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    #92
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Much the same in Wales.

    old_aussie wrote: »
    Your Irish forefather's saw a new horizon would open for Ireland.

    This would also enable the Irish to spread out and populate the new world....America, Australia, Canada, and many other English speaking countries.

    But the real IRONY is that Ireland needed to realized that to have the "Great" boards.ie, Ireland would need to speak English to comply with the rules of the holy mother of forums... boards.ie...…..

    English is the mother tongue of Ireland and is the language that the vast majority of our populace speaks. If you wish to speak in any other language, you must provide an English translation for what you're saying - it's just good manners. Some forums like Teach na nGealt or the Languages sub-forums are exempt from this rule.


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    #93
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,925 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    caff wrote: »
    Force all business including multinationals to deal with revenue in Irish and the language would bounce back. If you could deal with ibecs backlash

    LoL.

    Good luck with that with the majority of native born Irish unable to string a sentence together.


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    #94
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    The only thing that comes to mind is when part of what is now the Netherlands was a spanish colony but i dont remember them banning the language

    I'm by no means a historian but I certainly can't recall any events which would come close to qualifying for Dutch having been banned or discouraged or needing to be revived in any way.

    As far as reviving Irish I think it'd be an entirely pointless exercise but that's just my opinion, I'm quite happy for people to disagree with it.

    If you were to start though, as already pointed out, I'd perhaps look at the way it's being taught. If you're teaching children any language for 12 years and they don't come out of it the other end speaking it fluently then you're doing it horribly wrong.


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    #95
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,520 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    caff wrote: »
    Force all business including multinationals to deal with revenue in Irish and the language would bounce back. If you could deal with ibecs backlash

    No, mass emigration and unemployment would bounce back as the multinationals opt to countries with less bureaucracy.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #96
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,286 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    feargale wrote: »
    I don't know what you mean by overnight. Languages adopt words as they are needed. I spoke Dutch to a decent level some 50 years ago, when it had far, far fewer English loanwords. What the Dutch speak now is practically a different language. Overnight indeed.


    what i meant is that modern hebrew was created in a very short period of time in the 1920's. Very short as in a couple of years not 50 years. they took rabbinical hebrew and added 7 or 8000 words used in modern life. they had to create a word for tomato as none existed and ended up with a word that transliterates as buttocks because that is what the shape of a tomato reminded them of. I cant think of any other modern language that had as many words created for it in such a short period of time.


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    #97
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,286 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    feargale wrote: »
    I don't know what you mean by overnight. Languages adopt words as they are needed. I spoke Dutch to a decent level some 50 years ago, when it had far, far fewer English loanwords. What the Dutch speak now is practically a different language. Overnight indeed.


    I had a chat with a mate of mine who is dutch and oddly enough is nearly 50. He says you are talking nonsense. While there have been a lot of loanwords added the language has not changed. Somebody speaking the dutch of 50 years ago would be perfectly understood, they would just have difficulty describing some modern objects. But the same is true of somebody speaking english.


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    #98
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    JohnKyle39 wrote: »
    There is no excuse. Dutch, Icelandic, Catalan and countless other languages were banned and their countries brought them back and revived them.

    I know a lot of what you're saying is plain wrong, but I didn't know if Icelandic had been banned, so I looked it up and found no mention in any google search I could make. I'm not sure about Dutch but I'm skeptical. I'm not aware of the Netherlands ever having Spanish as a main language.
    JohnKyle39 wrote: »
    We're lazy and cowards. It's pathetic how a country that was invaded for 800 years

    That's one long invasion. Does that include the Normans? Must be why we're speaking French.
    JohnKyle39 wrote: »
    The other European countries and EU members don't speak English and are getting on fine.

    I think you'll find (if you ever have the compulsion to do research) that countries like the Netherlands and Sweden (countries with languages that noone besides themselves speak) all have to be able to speak English in order to function in the modern world (granted that it's not their official language, but it's compulsory in school and 86% of the population speak it).

    Thankfully you should be able to fully research this as these sources are widely available in English. However, if you wish to make these sources available in Gaeilge there is nothing stopping you from doing this work yourself, there are resources aplenty for people who wish to learn and use Irish. You may have to make some words up in your transaltion, as Irish isn't a living language, but that seems to be pretty standard practice

    monkey = moncaí

    Sure it does.


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    #99
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Just disappointed the OP wasnt 'as Gaeilge'


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    #100
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    If a language isn't used conversationally, it'll die.

    That's the basics of it. You can do all the tenses and prose you like, but if it's not being used every day in conversations, then nobody cares and you're wasting your time.

    I know fnck all about how best to teach languages, but the first two years of primary school are a bit of a nothing, the kids don't do very much except get a baseline. So maybe half of their time could be spent doing basic conversational Irish with a view to having the entire school day conducted in Irish by the time they're 12?


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    #101
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #102
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,366 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Both cohorts should be treated with the respect they deserve and be ignored.


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    #103
    valoren
    Registered Users Posts: 5,458 ✭✭✭valoren


    Reviving an all but extinct language is entirely in keeping with this morbid fascination of Ireland with isolation.
    We got conquered by the British, we emigrated to English speaking countries, their dominant language won out. Just deal with it. That's how the chips fell.

    The Irish language is no longer a productive entity. Important to remember yes, necessary to thrive, no. It is a cultural, historical one and this endeavor to revive it and the idea of it actually becoming our dominant language again is backwards thinking at best, deluded at worst more appropriate to the De Valera notion of an Ireland with the cailín's dancing at the crossroads.


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    #104
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    You may have to make some words up in your transaltion, as Irish isn't a living language, but that seems to be pretty standard practice

    monkey = moncaí

    Sure it does.

    You may have to make some words up in your transaltion, as English isn't a living language, but that seems to be pretty standard practice

    battalion, dragoon, soldier, marine, grenadier, guard, officer, infantry, cavalry, army, artillery, corvette, musketeer, carabineer, pistol, fusilier, squad, squadron, platoon, brigade, corps, sortie, reconnaissance/reconnoitre, surrender, surveillance, rendezvous, espionage, volley, siege, terrain, troop, camouflage, logistics, matériel, accoutrements, bivouac, latrine, aide-de-camp, legionnaire, morale, esprit de corps, cordon sanitaire. See also military ranks: corporal, sergeant, lieutenant, captain, colonel, general, admiral. baba au rhum, beef, beef bourguignon, boudin, caramel, casserole, cassoulet, clafoutis, confit, consommé, cream, croissant, custard, foie gras, flognarde, fondant, fondue, gateau, gratin, marmalade, mayonnaise, meringue, mille-feuille, mustard, mutton, navarin, pâté, pastry, petit four, pork, ragout, roux, salad, sauce, sausage, soufflé, stew, terrine, trifle, veal.

    Sure they are .


    I only speak pure Anglish.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws


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    #105
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #106
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I'm not sure about Dutch but I'm skeptical. I'm not aware of the Netherlands ever having Spanish as a main language.

    Maybe a historian (or someone with more time or interest to google this) might come along and prove me wrong.

    But as far as I'm concerned that simply didn't happen. I grew up speaking Dutch and there isn't a trace of Spanish in the language from what I can tell and you'd be hard pressed to find many remnants of Spanish culture.

    More so French if anything (napoleon)

    From what I recall the oppression was more of a religious rather than a linguistic nature. There are a number of rivers roughly dissecting Holland north/south which is more or less how far the Spanish got. Broadly speaking everything below the rivers it Catholic and everything above the rivers is protestant. (we just never went round killing each other over it :p)

    This is all from memory so I may well have it wrong (I don't think I do though). Holland has a pretty complicated history and has existed in many different forms under many different names. (like United Kingdom of the Netherlands :confused:)


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    #107
    farmerwifelet
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭farmerwifelet


    Peig - the ramblings of a senile horrible old woman immortalised because it was Irish. Until this is removed from the curriculum and a broader range brought in you are fighting a failing battle. We have to lose the poor Irish we had it so hard mentality it is not relevant. If you want to bring back Irish make it fun and usable or let it die. Sometimes culture moves on. I find the entrenched attitudes of Irish revivalists completely off putting. This notion that if you don't speak Irish fluently and want everyone to do so you are some sort of traitor and selling out our heritage is sad.

    Until people can critically look at our selves and our history and accept that we have some good and bad and just because it is Irish it is not always good then we have ourselves a failure to communicate.


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    #108
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,366 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    valoren wrote: »
    Reviving an all but extinct language is entirely in keeping with this morbid fascination of Ireland with isolation.
    We got conquered by the British, we emigrated to English speaking countries, their dominant language won out. Just deal with it. That's how the chips fell.

    The Irish language is no longer a productive entity. Important to remember yes, necessary to thrive, no. It is a cultural, historical one and this endeavor to revive it and the idea of it actually becoming our dominant language again is backwards thinking at best, deluded at worst more appropriate to the De Valera notion of an Ireland with the cailín's dancing at the crossroads.

    A lot of things are no longer 'productive' but warrant being taught and learnt. History springs to mind. I couldn't be arsed getting into a debate about compulsory Irish but I very much think for Irish children to have no grounding in the language would be wrong.


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    #109
    kazamo
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Just disappointed the OP wasnt 'as Gaeilge'

    If he had posted "as Gaeilge" there wouldn't be 104 replies, more likely 2-3 of which one will probably point out some grammatical error made by OP.


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    #110
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I think you'll find (if you ever have the compulsion to do research) that countries like the Netherlands and Sweden (countries with languages that noone besides themselves speak) all have to be able to speak English in order to function in the modern world (granted that it's not their official language, but it's compulsory in school and 86% of the population speak it).

    I would imagine that percentage to be higher at this stage. I started learning English at age 12 (first year of secondary school) and I'm pretty sure that has now been brought down to either 6 or 8. Also all english and american TV in Holland (there's a lot) isn't dubbed (I'm not sure why, always assumed that the market wouldn't be big enough but the population is about 17 million at this stage) so kids pick up an awful lot of english just from watching tv.

    As an aside, subtitles are a great way to help learn a language.


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    #111
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,202 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    farmerwifelet wrote: »
    Peig - the ramblings of a senile horrible old woman immortalised because it was Irish. Until this is removed from the curriculum and a broader range brought in you are fighting a failing battle. We have to lose the poor Irish we had it so hard mentality it is not relevant. If you want to bring back Irish make it fun and usable or let it die. Sometimes culture moves on. I find the entrenched attitudes of Irish revivalists completely off putting. This notion that if you don't speak Irish fluently and want everyone to do so you are some sort of traitor and selling out our heritage is sad.

    Until people can critically look at our selves and our history and accept that we have some good and bad and just because it is Irish it is not always good then we have ourselves a failure to communicate.

    Pretty sure it has been. Although probably replaced with something just as pointless and depressing, as whoever sets the syllabus has no more idea on how to facilitate a revival via education than my neighbour's cat.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #112
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    farmerwifelet wrote: »
    Peig - the ramblings of a senile horrible old woman immortalised because it was Irish. Until this is removed from the curriculum and a broader range brought in you are fighting a failing battle.

    Happened nearly 20 years ago .

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/schools-irish-syllabus-gets-a-shot-of-realism-26131037.html

    Jesus some people need information spoon fed to them.


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    #113
    farmerwifelet
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭farmerwifelet


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Happened nearly 20 years ago .

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/schools-irish-syllabus-gets-a-shot-of-realism-26131037.html

    Jesus some people need information spoon fed to them.

    I missed that!!
    it is a step in the right direction but i am not sure a heroin addict is the best replacement either.


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    #114
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #115
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You may have to make some words up in your transaltion, as English isn't a living language

    I only speak pure Anglish.

    There's never been any pretense that half of English is composed of Germanic words, and half composed of French words. English was forced on the Anglo-Saxons and British by Normans, and as such is a weird combination of the two languages, with basic words being Germanic, and more complicated (prestigious) words being French.

    Mind you, that was back in the 11th/12th centuries

    It's very different from some department issuing statements saying that the word taxi (which stands for taximeter cab) should be referred to as tacsaí in Irish

    wexie wrote: »
    I would imagine that percentage to be higher at this stage.

    Yes, sorry, that percentage was specifically for Sweden! I do think it's higher for Netherlands
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Happened nearly 20 years ago .

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/schools-irish-syllabus-gets-a-shot-of-realism-26131037.html

    Jesus some people need information spoon fed to them.

    Oh yes, the cringe fest of the legislators trying to be hip with talk about 'na drugaí'. The problem is that there isn't a body of literature in the language to fall back on, because it wasn't a written language until about the 18th century, and by that stage it was almost dead. The written language of the Catholic Church in Ireland was always Latin.


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    #116
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    It's very different from some department issuing statements saying that the word taxi (which stands for taximeter cab) should be referred to as tacsaí in Irish
    Loan words need to be changed to maintain the grammatical rules of the language.
    Some of these are imposed by some department Rothar.
    Some like Selfie take an English concept and give you féinín
    Some are naturally invented like Brexit Breatimeacht

    English is still borrowing words to this day https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26014925
    Loan words in a language indicate it's still active and developing
    The French have a whole department for dictating new words


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    #117
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Oh yes, the cringe fest of the legislators trying to be hip with talk about 'na drugaí'. The problem is that there isn't a body of literature in the language to fall back on, because it wasn't a written language until about the 18th century, and by that stage it was almost dead. The written language of the Catholic Church in Ireland was always Latin.

    Not a single book https://www.litriocht.com


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    #118
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,366 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    There's never been any pretense that half of English is composed of Germanic words, and half composed of French words. English was forced on the Anglo-Saxons and British by Normans, and as such is a weird combination of the two languages, with basic words being Germanic, and more complicated (prestigious) words being French.

    Mind you, that was back in the 11th/12th centuries

    It's very different from some department issuing statements saying that the word taxi (which stands for taximeter cab) should be referred to as tacsaí in Irish




    Yes, sorry, that percentage was specifically for Sweden! I do think it's higher for Netherlands



    Oh yes, the cringe fest of the legislators trying to be hip with talk about 'na drugaí'. The problem is that there isn't a body of literature in the language to fall back on, because it wasn't a written language until about the 18th century, and by that stage it was almost dead. The written language of the Catholic Church in Ireland was always Latin.

    That's incorrect. There are many books and documents written in Irish stretching back as far as the 11th century and it appears in annotations on manuscripts as far back as the 5th century. Ogham stones were also written in old Irish. In fact, Irish has the distinction of being the first vernacular Northern European language to be written down. Also, Irish remained the first language of the large majority in Ireland until the 19th century.


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    #119
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,520 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    That's incorrect. There are many books and documents written in Irish stretching back as far as the 11th century and it appears in annotations on manuscripts as far back as the 5th century. Ogham stones were also written in old Irish. In fact, Irish has the distinction of being the first vernacular Northern European language to be written down. Also, Irish remained the first language of the large majority in Ireland until the 19th century.

    Is that really body of literature though? How much of it was actually being read in the 18th and early 19th century by that large majority in Ireland - or even its literate class?

    It's telling that the Book of Kells is in Latin. One of the great drivers for literacy in Protestant countries was translations of the Bible into the local language.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #120
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,202 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    farmerwifelet wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If the person writing the source material had experience of heroin it might, but I'm guessing that's not the case. Something a bit more light-hearted would be a better option. Modern day Barrytown Trilogy kinda thing.

    One way or the other, I seriously feel that the whole point of secondary level Irish is not to facilitate any sort of a revival, t's - like every other subject, to be fair - purely to get points for a college application.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    A wee bit long, don't you think?! Also, I think something written in original Irish by someone a) who knows kids/teenagers, b) can write and c) can keep the language relatively simple. Not sure if such a person exists though (or, if they did, would ever be approached in the first place).

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #121
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,366 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Is that really body of literature though? How much of it was actually being read in the 18th and early 19th century by that large majority in Ireland?

    It's telling that the Book of Kells is in Latin. One of the great drivers for literacy in Protestant countries was translations of the Bible into the local language.

    What are books and documents if not a body of literature? Anyway, I doubt if much was being written or read in Irish by the 18th century considering English domination had been completed by 1700 and the large majority of Irish people would have been illiterate.

    My point was in response to the bizarre assertion that Irish "wasn't a written language until about the 18th century, and by that stage it was almost dead."


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