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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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Comments

  • #1112
    Stevek101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    dublinbuster wrote: »
    Simple fact is Go Ahead are going to struggle to keep drivers.
    1, paying less than rivals.
    2, Ballymount depot, why is this a problem you ask, how do drivers get to and from depot to Bray/Dun Laoghaire.
    Early shift drive car to depot, finish in Bray/DL at 1500 now must make own way back to depot, how long will that take, bus/DART to town, then bus to ballymount
    Late shift just as bad, drive to depot, make way to Bray/DL for 1500 start, long day every day.
    This will be a problem mark my words


    Applying this logic Dublin Coach, Express Bus etc would have no drivers. Its easy being marked in in DB. But turnover in DB and BÉ prove it isn't all about the money.


  • #1113
    dublinbuster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    Applying this logic Dublin Coach, Express Bus etc would have no drivers. Its easy being marked in in DB. But turnover in DB and BÉ prove it isn't all about the money.

    and you believe Go Ahead are going to have no problems getting and keeping drivers, while paying less and having a depot in the arse end of dublin with no direct link to where the drivers must go to start/finish work?
    If Go Ahead train up drivers from scratch, they will get drivers, who will then leave after a few months of experience to go to a better paid and better conditions job


  • #1114
    moonship
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭moonship


    dublinbuster wrote: »
    Simple fact is Go Ahead are going to struggle to keep drivers.
    1, paying less than rivals.
    2, Ballymount depot, why is this a problem you ask, how do drivers get to and from depot to Bray/Dun Laoghaire.
    Early shift drive car to depot, finish in Bray/DL at 1500 now must make own way back to depot, how long will that take, bus/DART to town, then bus to ballymount
    Late shift just as bad, drive to depot, make way to Bray/DL for 1500 start, long day every day.
    This will be a problem mark my words

    If depot is in Ballymount dont you just take the bus from depot and drive empty bus back to depot after you finish ypur shift? Otherwise i dont see anybody who would work for them


  • #1115
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    moonship wrote: »
    If depot is in Ballymount dont you just take the bus from depot and drive empty bus back to depot after you finish ypur shift? Otherwise i dont see anybody who would work for them

    Because some drivers may have to change drivers on the same at the end of a shift with the same bus


  • #1116
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,010 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    dublinbuster wrote: »
    Clueless and ignorant post, about par for the course around here

    Care to go in to detail there?

    Such as explaining how the marked in system isn't archaic and protectionist, for instance?

    Coming back weeks later for a drive-by dismissal doesn't work


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  • #1117
    Creative83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭Creative83


    How does anyone know if the drivers will be paid less then Dublin Bus drivers?


  • #1118
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    Applying this logic Dublin Coach, Express Bus etc would have no drivers. Its easy being marked in in DB. But turnover in DB and BÉ prove it isn't all about the money.

    It's been touched upon on in the other thread, but seniority systems only work for the senior staff within the organisation, they actually create a staff turnover problem and with such system it is little surprise that the likes of Dublin Bus are unable to retain recently recruited staff.

    Seniority systems seem to be far more common in the public sector and in heavily unionised companies whose employees are happy to feather their own cap at the expense of newer staff all under the banner of so called solidarit y. With a system that discriminates heavily against new employees, any company would have a problem with a high attrition rate among new starters.

    It is discouraging for new employees to feel as if they will never get a decent shift or proper notice of what they are working, knowing there is little chance of change in the next few years. People change work more often than in the past so seniority based approaches to time off penalise newer hires and can hasten their exit from the company as they feel they are not being treated fairly.

    Certainly there should be some reward for service, such as long service awards, extra holiday days for example, whilst in the public sector increments are often paid. But any company that gives the staff at the top everything and the staff at the bottom nothing, is going to have an issue in relation to retaining recently hired staff because they will simply get disheartened and quit.


  • #1119
    Stevek101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    Creative83 wrote: »
    How does anyone know if the drivers will be paid less then Dublin Bus drivers?


    GoAhead Dublin are offering a base wage of €32,000. Dublin Bus around €36,000 but its hard to judge as new entrants are on different conditions such as 4 day week Thurs - Sun all lates.


  • #1120
    dublinbuster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    moonship wrote: »
    If depot is in Ballymount dont you just take the bus from depot and drive empty bus back to depot after you finish ypur shift? Otherwise i dont see anybody who would work for them

    Early shift will start in depot, driver takes bus out to Bray/DL , does days work , finishes at 1500, parks Bus up for the late shift to use.
    Early shift will make own way back to depot to collect car and go home.
    Vice versa for late shift, it is a extra hour or 2 unpaid added to your work day, this will get old very quickly.
    They are not going to run a bus empty back and fort between depot and Bray/DL, waste of diesel.


  • #1121
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dublinbuster wrote: »
    Early shift will start in depot, driver takes bus out to Bray/DL , does days work , finishes at 1500, parks Bus up for the late shift to use.
    Early shift will make own way back to depot to collect car and go home.
    Vice versa for late shift, it is a extra hour or 2 unpaid added to your work day, this will get old very quickly.
    They are not going to run a bus empty back and fort between depot and Bray/DL, waste of diesel.

    That might be how it works in Dublin Bus, but it doesn't mean that Go-Ahead are going to do the same.


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  • #1122
    dublinbuster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    L1011 wrote: »
    Care to go in to detail there?

    Such as explaining how the marked in system isn't archaic and protectionist, for instance?

    Coming back weeks later for a drive-by dismissal doesn't work

    Marking in is the carrot dangling in front of new drivers, it is the reward for long service, with out it drivers would not do the job for long, ****ty shifts and the light at the end of the tunnel is marking in and a somewhat normal life.

    But, But, But get rid of marking in and treat all drivers the same!
    Yeah well good luck retaining staff


  • #1123
    dublinbuster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    Creative83 wrote: »
    How does anyone know if the drivers will be paid less then Dublin Bus drivers?

    On Go Ahead web site, earn wages up to 32k
    DB have 6 year pay scale.
    Dont think it unreasonable to think Go Ahead will be similar
    So just a guess, start at 26k and go up 1k per year

    Less than DB/BE and Aircoach?


  • #1124
    dublinbuster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    devnull wrote: »
    That might be how it works in Dublin Bus, but it doesn't mean that Go-Ahead are going to do the same.

    How are the drivers going to make way from depot to Bray/DL and back?
    share your theories


  • #1125
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,010 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    dublinbuster wrote: »
    Marking in is the carrot dangling in front of new drivers, it is the reward for long service, with out it drivers would not do the job for long, ****ty shifts and the light at the end of the tunnel is marking in and a somewhat normal life.

    But, But, But get rid of marking in and treat all drivers the same!
    Yeah well good luck retaining staff

    The shifts wouldn't be as bad if marking in didn't exist. That is blindingly obvious


  • #1126
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dublinbuster wrote: »
    Marking in is the carrot dangling in front of new drivers, it is the reward for long service, with out it drivers would not do the job for long, ****ty shifts and the light at the end of the tunnel is marking in and a somewhat normal life.

    But, But, But get rid of marking in and treat all drivers the same! Yeah well good luck retaining staff

    Where are the senior drivers going to go if the marked in system goes? Do you really see them leaving a job with all their increments, entitlement to extra holiday days etc, to start at the bottom with worse terms and conditions and lower pay in another company which also won't have a marked in system?

    Sure they'll scream bloody blue murder and call for a strike no doubt, but the grass isn't going to be greener for them anywhere else so in the end they'll stay put when they realise the alternative is exactly the same kind of system that they don't like, yet without their increments and entitlements they'v'e worked up over years of service.

    I've said it before and I've said it again, any system that holds senior staff up on too high of a pedestal, whilst discriminating against newer staff, will always have problems retaining new staff. This is not my thoughts, it's my experience of working on HR matters. You have to balance it out and the best way of doing that is by treating all staff as similar as possible whilst also rewarding loyalty and service with extra perks.

    Having a system which essentially causes a massive divide between the senior staff and the junior staff will never, ever be good for running a business and every team is more successful when they work together as one rather than a few individuals just looking out for each other.


  • #1127
    KD345
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭KD345


    dublinbuster wrote: »
    How are the drivers going to make way from depot to Bray/DL and back?
    share your theories

    The Ballymount depot will be a problem, but there are ways to work around. In the UK, some operators use a staff car for driver handovers along the route (one driver goes from depot to changeover point and the other driver takes the car back to depot to finish shift).

    The problem here is that Ballymount is a long distance away from the likes of Bray and Swords/Balbriggan and the M50 is a car park for much of the day. Go Ahead will need to build in generous handover times to keep to schedule.

    As for dead mileage, there are a lot of Dublin bus routes which could improve in this area. Routes like the 18 which will soon be Go Ahead operated, currently has a high level of out of service buses running empty between Palmerstown and Donnybrook or Sandymount and Donnybrook. There could easily be a driver handover on Appian Way which would keep more buses in service for longer and give a higher frequency. I would expect Go Ahead will have driver handovers somewhere around Longmile Road for the 18 where a shuttle car as described above will take drivers to and from the depot.

    The fact is you or I don’t yet know the schedules or operation plans for Go Ahead. I’m assuming all routes will get new timetables which will hopefully improve reliability and frequency for passengers (currently two and three hour gaps on the 239, and the current service on the 18 after 7pm is shocking). My point is that even Dublin Bus, which has a major orbital route passing 5 minutes from its depot, still has drivers and buses running empty to handover across the city. Dublin Bus has improved greatly in this area but there is still a lot of work to be done, so it might be best to hold off bashing Go Ahead until we see timetables, bills and operating plans.


  • #1128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 317 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Is all of this just gossip or has someone actually seen their running boards with details of drivers having to crawl on their hands and knees from bray to ballymount. I hardly think go ahead would expect drivers to happily spend 2hrs a day getting back to a depot after shifts. If this venture is to be a success they will have to treat drivers well as right now all major operators are crying out for drivers.


  • #1129
    dublinbuster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    soundman45 wrote: »
    Is all of this just gossip or has someone actually seen their running boards with details of drivers having to crawl on their hands and knees from bray to ballymount. I hardly think go ahead would expect drivers to happily spend 2hrs a day getting back to a depot after shifts. If this venture is to be a success they will have to treat drivers well as right now all major operators are crying out for drivers.

    Here is a little bit of info for you.
    2 Bray based DB drivers are on the books for Go Ahead, they are giving Go Ahead all the info of how DB run the Bray based routes, there wont be a massive difference as to how DB or Go Ahead operate the routes.


  • #1130
    dublinbuster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    L1011 wrote: »
    The shifts wouldn't be as bad if marking in didn't exist. That is blindingly obvious

    Where do you think the split shifts are going to go?
    They generally work 4 hours, go on 4 hour break, come back and work 4 hours, run for morning and evening rush hour.

    Its blindingly obvious very few like these shifts, good luck retaining staff if this is part of your work life until you retire at 67.
    Get marked in , you do these shift no more, unless you are one of the few who it suits, ie live near depot.


  • #1131
    dublinbuster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    devnull wrote: »
    Where are the senior drivers going to go if the marked in system goes? Do you really see them leaving a job with all their increments, entitlement to extra holiday days etc, to start at the bottom with worse terms and conditions and lower pay in another company which also won't have a marked in system?

    .
    They would move to a different job.
    We are not bound by blood to drive a bus till the day we die


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  • #1132
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228


    The contract award notice was recently published in the Official Journal of the EU (OJ).

    http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:198615-2018:TEXT:EN:HTML&WT.mc_id=RSS-Feed&WT.rss_f=Other+Services&WT.rss_a=198615-2018&WT.rss_ev=a#id1-I.
    Total value of the procurement (excluding VAT) (Agree to publish? yes)

    Value excluding VAT: 171 646 195.00 EUR

    Ex vat, so the contract appears to be much more than the media reported €172M.


  • #1133
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Now we can see the criteria that the bids were judged on
    Quality criterion - Name: Organisation Plan / Weighting: 8
    Quality criterion - Name: Supervision and Control Strategy Plan / Weighting: 4
    Quality criterion - Name: Authority Network Asset Maintenance Strategy Plan / Weighting: 9
    Quality criterion - Name: Safety Management Plan / Weighting: 3
    Quality criterion - Name: Revenue Protection Plan / Weighting: 4
    Quality criterion - Name: Customer Service Policy / Weighting: 5
    Quality criterion - Name: Security Management Plan / Weighting: 2
    Price - Weighting: 65


  • #1134
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    Now we can see the criteria that the bids were judged on

    Queue a fierce (but heavily flawed) DB vs GA bedate on which is better value even though we have no idea what DB offered or any meaningful method of comparison, because such a debate sparks off each time the contract and scoring is mentioned. :)


  • #1135
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    Queue a fierce (but heavily flawed) DB vs GA bedate on which is better value even though we have no idea what DB offered or any meaningful method of comparison, because such a debate sparks off each time the contract and scoring is mentioned. :)

    Well unless we see the DB figures and scores then it's pretty hard to compare isn't it, because taking a gross cost contract awarded by competitive tender and a net cost contract that is awarded by direct award and stacking them against each other is like comparing an apple and something that isn't even a food.

    The revenue protection criteria is interesting, they're recruiting a number of such roles right now, and it's previously been mentioned elsewhere on here that there is only one team in Dublin Bus, so I can see it's quite likely there will be more ticket checks on GA than DB which can only be a good thing.


  • #1136
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    Well unless we see the DB figures and scores then it's pretty hard to compare isn't it, because taking a gross cost contract awarded by competitive tender and a net cost contract that is awarded by direct award and stacking them against each other is like comparing an apple and something that isn't even a food.

    Indeed, and the Route 139 contract was published a few days ago at €750,000 ex vat.

    For just one route no doubt that will get drawn into the skewed comparisons to come, using it as some sort of a benchmark no doubt.


  • #1137
    brokenarms
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    dublinbuster wrote: »
    Where do you think the split shifts are going to go?
    They generally work 4 hours, go on 4 hour break, come back and work 4 hours, run for morning and evening rush hour.

    Its blindingly obvious very few like these shifts, good luck retaining staff if this is part of your work life until you retire at 67.
    Get marked in , you do these shift no more, unless you are one of the few who it suits, ie live near depot.

    The big problem is, there is no light at the end of the tunnel for a spare man.

    I certainly will not stay with DB unless they speed up the process.

    Spare men in our garage over 11 years now. Still no sign of marking in. Its an absolute joke. Getting screwed with bogies and reliefs everyday.
    Drivers out on the sick for literally years and their marked in position kept for them.

    This suits me right now, but I am at the CIE jobs notice board along with many others each week . No fecking way I intend to play second fiddle as a scummy spare man as some call us, , who incidentaly got marked in in under a year.

    What could one train to be in 11 years? Dentist, architect a pilot?
    In DB you get to be a marked in driver.. The exact same job you did the week you finished training school 11 years + earlier.

    I understand in most jobs you have to work your way up, but this is ridiculous.


  • #1138
    moonship
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭moonship


    GM228 wrote: »
    Indeed, and the Route 139 contract was published a few days ago at €750,000 ex vat.

    For just one route no doubt that will get drawn into the skewed comparisons to come, using it as some sort of a benchmark no doubt.

    Not much to cover 3 years, a few staff, cost of buses and extra expenses along the way.


  • #1139
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,817 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    GM228 wrote: »
    Indeed, and the Route 139 contract was published a few days ago at €750,000 ex vat.

    For just one route no doubt that will get drawn into the skewed comparisons to come, using it as some sort of a benchmark no doubt.

    It seems to be about €2.50/km.

    That does seem a lot cheaper than Bus Eireann could offer.


  • #1140
    moonship
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭moonship


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    It seems to be about €2.50/km.

    That does seem a lot cheaper than Bus Eireann could offer.

    Total value of the procurement (excluding VAT) (Agree to publish? yes)
    Value excluding VAT: 749 227.00 EUR

    Total for 3 years


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  • #1141
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228


    moonship wrote: »
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    It seems to be about €2.50/km.

    That does seem a lot cheaper than Bus Eireann could offer.

    Total value of the procurement (excluding VAT) (Agree to publish? yes)
    Value excluding VAT: 749 227.00 EUR

    Total for 3 years

    I work it out as:-

    840km per day x 364 = 305,760 annual km x 3 = 917,280 contract km, divided by €749,227 = €1.22 per km + vat = €1.50 per km approximately.


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