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The Adoption Scandal

2456

Comments

  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,740 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    But they might imagine they have a claim on their adoptive famiy inheritance since they think they're biological children of that family going by their birth certs. Without a legal adoption cert, they're actually unrelated.



    Heard a fella talking about this on the radio today. I have to say I didn't think it was that big a deal until that was pointed out.

    Hmm. Adoptive children do have a claim on the adopted family inheritance because they are legally part of that family. All ties with the biological family would have been severed with the adoption order.

    This scandal seems to place those now adults in a kind of limbo. They are not the biological children of their parents but have no paper work to say so. In fact it says opposite which isn't true.


  • #33
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭tretorn


    If the adoption was done illegally then they are the children of the natural parents and could claim they were fostered rather than adopted.
    This could mean they are entitled to inheritance.
    This was probably done do the birth mother wouldnt be found, she may have wanted it this way.


  • #34
    Always number 1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Always number 1


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    did Leo mention the dark days of 2018 when 4000 children were homeless?

    Anyway back to the latest scandal

    Is this 4000 children sleeping rough or 4000 children that SOME of whom were born to work shy parents or parents who turned down housing that wasn't next door to their ma or thought having a child would be a great way to get a gaff???

    Anyway back to the thread, this will bring poor old Simon and Leo back down to earth after their 'heroics' last weekend..


  • #35
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭McCrack


    tretorn wrote: »
    If the adoption was done illegally then they are the children of the natural parents and could claim they were fostered rather than adopted.
    This could mean they are entitled to inheritance.
    This was probably done do the birth mother wouldnt be found, she may have wanted it this way.

    Succession law doesnt work like that

    No child is ever "entitled"' to an inheritance

    Section 117 can be invoked but thats not for this discussion but just take it that children do not have any automatic right to an inheritance from their parents (adopted or not)


  • #36
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Great. I was missing some outrage today.


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  • #37
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    McCrack wrote: »
    Leaving aside the issue at present I would think the majority of adopted people consider their "real parents" the ones that raised them and not their biological ones.

    Klonker wrote: »
    I'm going to be honest and I'll probably be shot down for it, I don't think this is that big of a deal.

    Wrong? Most definitely and shouldn't have happened but I just don't think it's a huge deal even to those affected.
    odyssey06 wrote: »
    No good can come from opening up this can of worms. Let sleeping dogs lie.

    Lost for words at the above posts.

    Hopefully none of you will get a letter in the next few weeks from Tusla to tell you that you are not who you think you are. How would you feel then?

    As for letting sleeping dogs lie, the people who are affected by this may well be traumatised. They could have children and grandchildren who will all be affected by this. They may have lived their entire lives based on a lie if their 'parents' kept the truth from them. Their kids and grandkids all have a fictitious story of their background.

    This is not about children who went through adoption but they also deserve to know who they are and their origins.


  • #38
    Joe Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Joe Dog


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Lost for words at the above posts.

    Hopefully none of you will get a letter in the next few weeks from Tusla to tell you that you are not who you think you are. How would you feel then?

    As for letting sleeping dogs lie, the people who are affected by this may well be traumatised. They could have children and grandchildren who will all be affected by this. They may have lived their entire lives based on a lie if their 'parents' kept the truth from them. Their kids and grandkids all have a fictitious story of their background.

    This is not about children who went through adoption but they also deserve to know who they are and their origins.

    It's only a lie if the children who were adopted ever find out about it.

    Personally I think if someone gets to adulthood and they genuinely didn't know they were adopted and had no idea then they would be better off not knowing, I know that if it was the case I was adopted or even if my father wasn't my biological father I would 100% not want to know.

    Ignorance is Bliss and to be honest some things in life you would be better off not to know.


  • #39
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Lost for words at the above posts.

    Hopefully none of you will get a letter in the next few weeks from Tusla to tell you that you are not who you think you are. How would you feel then?

    As for letting sleeping dogs lie, the people who are affected by this may well be traumatised. They could have children and grandchildren who will all be affected by this. They may have lived their entire lives based on a lie if their 'parents' kept the truth from them. Their kids and grandkids all have a fictitious story of their background.

    This is not about children who went through adoption but they also deserve to know who they are and their origins.

    We are products of our surroundings. With humans, ignorance is bliss. What they do not know will not hurt them in this case.


  • #40
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,639 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Lost for words at the above posts.

    Hopefully none of you will get a letter in the next few weeks from Tusla to tell you that you are not who you think you are. How would you feel then?

    As for letting sleeping dogs lie, the people who are affected by this may well be traumatised. They could have children and grandchildren who will all be affected by this. They may have lived their entire lives based on a lie if their 'parents' kept the truth from them. Their kids and grandkids all have a fictitious story of their background.

    This is not about children who went through adoption but they also deserve to know who they are and their origins.

    So why tell them? Do they have to be told?

    My point about letting sleeping dogs lie is why send out the letters at all?
    Some of these people are in their 70s...

    Would I want to get the letter. Lord no. Even if I was one of the people affected.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #41
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    Klonker wrote: »
    I'm going to be honest and I'll probably be shot down for it, I don't think this is that big of a deal.

    Wrong? Most definitely and shouldn't have happened but I just don't think it's a huge deal even to those affected.
    There are between 1% and 3% of people who have the wrong fathers on their birth cert. With DNA testing becoming more commonplace, it won't be just illegal adoptions that will be causing issues.

    Interesting timing from the minister to release this now.


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  • #42
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Joe Dog wrote: »
    It's only a lie if the children who were adopted ever find out about it.

    Personally I think if someone gets to adulthood and they genuinely didn't know they were adopted and had no idea then they would be better off not knowing, I know that if it was the case I was adopted or even if my father wasn't my biological father I would 100% not want to know.

    Ignorance is Bliss and to be honest some things in life you would be better off not to know.

    The point is they were not adopted:D They were registered as the natural child of the couple.

    Every person has a right to know where they come from. What they choose to do with the information is their decision.

    Other people should not get to decide - same principal as the recent referendum and the marriage equality.

    Maybe you think adopted/false registered people should not be treated equally or have less rights?


  • #43
    Joe Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Joe Dog


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    The point is they were not adopted:D They were registered as the natural child of the couple.

    Every person has a right to know where they come from. What they choose to do with the information is their decision.

    Other people should not get to decide - same principal as the recent referendum and the marriage equality.

    Maybe you think adopted/false registered people should not be treated equally or have less rights?


    You honestly seem to want to be deliberately miss the point I made.

    What good would it do for people in their 50's to 70's to find out their whole life so far has been a lie.

    Sometimes having all information is not the best thing for people.

    They should have been told as children they were adopted but of they get to this late stage of their lives without knowing and unless they have always suspected they were adopted (in which case they would probably be looking for the truth themselves) then I would suggest somebody who is completely unaware they were adopted was probably be better off now not to know.


  • #44
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    So why tell them? Do they have to be told?

    My point about letting sleeping dogs lie is why send out the letters at all?
    Some of these people are in their 70s...

    Would I want to get the letter. Lord no. Even if I was one of the people affected.

    that's interesting - What does age have to do with it?

    Are you saying older citizens should just put up with an injustice simply because successive governments has ignored the problem? Surely you cannot be dismissing people's rights based on age :confused:


  • #45
    Joe Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Joe Dog


    mrslancaster wrote: »

    Other people should not get to decide - same principal as the recent referendum and the marriage equality.


    That was a gay marriage referendum not marriage equality referendum.People who would want to marry their sibling could not do so (regardless of how weird that might be).


  • #46
    Roger_007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    If any of these people affected by this are unaware that they are not the natural children of the parents who raised them, then the fault lies entirely with those parents for not telling them.
    The fact that a crime was committed in the falsification of their birth certificates is an entirely different matter.


  • #47
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,639 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    The point is they were not adopted:D They were registered as the natural child of the couple.

    Every person has a right to know where they come from. What they choose to do with the information is their decision.

    Other people should not get to decide - same principal as the recent referendum and the marriage equality.

    Maybe you think adopted/false registered people should not be treated equally or have less rights?

    Poll a 1000 people who are over 50 and ask them would they want to be told this information if they were affected?
    The vast majority would choose to remain behind the veil of ignorance.

    Its not about less rights or equality.
    If people must know their origins why dont we have mandatory dna testing to establish true parentage for all irish people today?

    Its bonkers inflicting emotional turmoil on these people in this scenario unnecessarily snd out of the blue.

    Set up a process where people who suspect they are in this cohort can establish the truth.
    Dont send out letters in the post to people whose lives are sailing along in ignorant bliss.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #48
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,639 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    that's interesting - What does age have to do with it?

    Are you saying older citizens should just put up with an injustice simply because successive governments has ignored the problem? Surely you cannot be dismissing people's rights based on age :confused:

    Age, or rather, time has everything to do with some scenarios. We cannot travel back in time to deliver justice. It does not mean anyones rights are dismissed it means there are some things that once done cannot be undone. We can set in place processes to mitigate impact and stop it from happening again.

    It would a greater injustice now to upset hundreds of families with information they have not sought nor want.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #49
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Poll a 1000 people who are over 50 and ask them would they want to be told this information if they were affected? The vast majority would choose to remain behind the veil of ignorance....

    ....Set up a process where people who suspect they are in this cohort can establish the truth....

    How do you know they would choose ignorance?

    how would that process work?


  • #50
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,070 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    I think it’s so long ago that there is no real benefit in contacting people who are getting on in years and turning their lives upside down.
    I’m most cases their parents will be deceased now and so why tell them something that can’t ever come to a resolution.
    It’s jist telling them something to undermine their identity, but telling them so late that there is nothing they can do to ask those involved any questions or raises.

    So, “your not who you think you are, but we can’t say who you are and you will never ever know and must die never knowing the truth”


    I see the argument of “medical history” being rolled out and honestly in this day and age it’s a useful snippet of information but nothing more. For someone in their 60’s onwards their own medical history is really all that counts. Any other relevant issues would likely have surfaced by now and been dealt with.

    We shouldn’t let our anger at those responsible for these transgressions cause actions that hurt people in a way that can’t be healed.

    I have some perspective on these issues being a father of two adopted children.


  • #51
    Joe Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Joe Dog


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    How do you know they would choose ignorance?

    how would that process work?

    I suspect most people would prefer to go along with their lives. I know I would.

    The people who wouldn't are probably people who always suspected they were adopted. For people like that there should be an office set up for them to contact and find out the truth.


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  • #52
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,639 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    How do you know they would choose ignorance?

    how would that process work?

    I know the vast majority would choose ignorance from the comments on this thread and everything I have read about adoption and paternity
    I am less certain on the outcome if the question was for newly adopted children...That is a materially different question.

    The process well I imagine there must be examples from abroad but it would be confidential. The onus would be on the citizen to contact the body responsible, establish their identity and then the body cross checks against the list of impacted people.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #53
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭McCrack


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Lost for words at the above posts.

    Hopefully none of you will get a letter in the next few weeks from Tusla to tell you that you are not who you think you are. How would you feel then?

    As for letting sleeping dogs lie, the people who are affected by this may well be traumatised. They could have children and grandchildren who will all be affected by this. They may have lived their entire lives based on a lie if their 'parents' kept the truth from them. Their kids and grandkids all have a fictitious story of their background.

    This is not about children who went through adoption but they also deserve to know who they are and their origins.

    My earlier post you quoted

    I think you are misunderstanding me

    I am saying I would think the majority of adopted people who know they are adopted would consider their adoptive parents their "real parents"' to use that expression used by the OP and not their biological ones.

    In other words the people that reared them


  • #54
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭McCrack


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    So why tell them? Do they have to be told?

    My point about letting sleeping dogs lie is why send out the letters at all?
    Some of these people are in their 70s...

    Would I want to get the letter. Lord no. Even if I was one of the people affected.

    Everyone has a right to their own personal and individual identity


  • #55
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭tretorn


    McCrack wrote: »
    Succession law doesnt work like that

    No child is ever "entitled"' to an inheritance

    Section 117 can be invoked but thats not for this discussion but just take it that children do not have any automatic right to an inheritance from their parents (adopted or not)

    If a person dies intestate then children are entitled to one third of the estate.
    I can see a situation where a child who wasnt legally adopted could claim for a share of the estate of his biological parents.


  • #56
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭tretorn


    McCrack wrote: »
    My earlier post you quoted

    I think you are misunderstanding me

    I am saying I would think the majority of adopted people who know they are adopted would consider their adoptive parents their "real parents"' to use that expression used by the OP and not their biological ones.

    In other words the people that reared them

    I wouldnt necessarily say thats the case.

    I know one woman started her search for her birth mother the day she turned eighteen. She didnt have a very happy time growing up, her adoptive mother regularly said I took you in because no one wanted you.

    I dont think any of us who werent adopted can say how adopted people feel about anything.


  • #57
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,639 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    McCrack wrote: »
    Everyone has a right to their own personal and individual identity

    They already have a personal and individual identity.

    Someone at 70 should have the right not to have their identity shattered because of past failings by others.

    What human good will this do?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #58
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭McCrack


    tretorn wrote: »
    I wouldnt necessarily say thats the case.

    I know one woman started her search for her birth mother the day she turned eighteen. She didnt have a very happy time growing up, her adoptive mother regularly said I took you in because no one wanted you.

    I dont think any of us who werent adopted can say how adopted people feel about anything.

    Well I would think if a person is adopted and told from an early age they were and cared for and reared with all the love and support a child needs by his or adoptive parents they would consider them their "real parents" and not their biological ones and possibly the suggestion that their biological parents are their real ones would be upsetting or insulting to them/their adoptive parents.

    Clearly this isnt a rule and your friend had a bad experience unfortunately


  • #59
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Joe Dog wrote: »
    I suspect most people would prefer to go along with their lives. I know I would.

    The people who wouldn't are probably people who always suspected they were adopted. For people like that there should be an office set up for them to contact and find out the truth.

    Most people who find out information about being adopted do get along with their lives and i suspect there will be many who have no suspicions about this either.

    From what i heard today there was information about backgrounds found in files held by tusla. The 'parents' were wrong to falsify the birth certs and then to carry on with the lie.

    All the correct information and the truth should be given to those affected irrespective of their age but that's just my opinion.

    Everyone has the right to know their origins and it's easy for those not affected to be dismissive of others rights.

    It sounds like not much has changed, some sectors of society thinking they know best for others because something happened years ago.


  • #60
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭McCrack


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    They already have a personal and individual identity.

    Someone at 70 should have the right not to have their identity shattered because of past failings by others.

    What human good will this do?

    And at what age do you propose to cut off informing people? Considering these adoptions were between 1946 and 1969


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  • #61
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,639 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    McCrack wrote: »
    And at what age do you propose to cut off informing people? Considering these adoptions were between 1946 and 1969

    Dont inform anyone.

    How will they even know they are sending the letter to the right people and address after 50 years minimum elapsed time?

    Setup a body or team in Tulsa and let concerned people contact them.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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