"Femininity is admired but not respected like masculinity" Do you agree?

farmchoice wrote: »

one of the biggest shocks she got was that by and large woman were looking for manly men as opposed to more feminine men, she was taken aback by this.

I do think women's sexual preferences are something that is largely overlooked.

Maybe it's because we've spent so long convincing ourselves that women are precious flowers who reluctantly give up sex to men. Or maybe women have felt it's "wrong" to admit that they admire masculine features.

But I think a lot of value would be added to society if we were to acknowledge and celebrate female sexuality in the same way that we do for male sexuality.

Instead we're moving down the road of suppressing male sexuality; calling "offence" at sexy ads, trying to teach people that admiring a woman physically is wrong. And that's good for nobody.

There is a happy medium; acknowledging that both sexes have a visual/physical aspect to sexuality, without allowing it to become a commodity, and without making it the defining aspect of either gender's value.

Women do have a point in that in times gone by they've been taught that if they're not sexy or not a mother, then they have no social value. And "taught" by society as opposed to someone standing at a blackboard saying those words to them.
Yes, we need to value women as people (which one could argue we are most of the way there), but not lose sight of the fact that we are animals, and the physical and visual is also important and shouldn't be shamed into suppression.

nigel_wilson wrote: »

So is that really the case with effeminate men or more importantly femininity in general? Perhaps a man may look very posh and 'cute' with androgynous clothing but do most people really respect him less compared to if he had a more masculine persona?

It depends upon context, not gender. I wouldn't be able to take a man seriously if they turned up to a business meeting looking effeminate in their appearance. I also can't take men in slim fit suits seriously, though the same look seems to make some of my female colleagues a bit weak-kneed. If the same man had the same effeminate appearance and for example they were a theatrical performer, in that context I would be judging them by a different standard, and the one that stands out for me was a Kylie impersonator who was far more qualified to call themselves a gender discombobulator than Panti Bliss, for whom there is no doubt that they're a man presenting themselves poorly as a woman. That's why I can't take PB seriously - I can respect him as a human being, while also having no respect for the way in which he chooses to present himself.

With regards to femininity in general, well again of course it depends upon context. How does one define femininity? That's a rhetorical question by the way but for myself, I know it when I see it :pac: Basically the demure woman stuff is how some women express their femininity, and it's how some males choose to impersonate that persona because that's what they perceive femininity to be from their perspective. I prefer women with balls (metaphorically speaking :pac:), and for a long time I admired Hillary Clinton as a woman who I took seriously. But during her presidential election campaign when she wheeled out America Ferrera, Lena Dunham and Sarah Silverman (they remind me of the three witches in Macbeth, they offered warning signs of what was to come if Hillary was elected President ), and I lost all respect I had for her capabilities as a leader. I didn't lose any respect for her as a woman, but from that point on I couldn't take her seriously as a potential leader.

farmchoice wrote: »

i watched a documentary about a woman in America who wanted to know what it was like to be a man, she was a lesbian and a feminist activist and came at it from that angle.


anyway she lived as a man for about a year and in general her opinion of men and their struggles etc ect changed.
during the doc she went on numerous dates as a man and one of the biggest shocks she got was that by and large woman were looking for manly men as opposed to more feminine men, she was taken aback by this.

Sounds like it could be this you are thinking of:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Made_Man_(book)

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https://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982

Vincent even dabbled in the art of picking up women and agreed to wear a hidden camera for "20/20" during her exploits.


She was quickly reminded that in this arena, it's women who have the power, she said.


"In fact, we sit there and we just with one word, 'no,' will crush someone," she said. "We don't have to do the part where you cross the room and you go up to a stranger that you've never met in the middle of a room full of people and say the first words. And those first words are so hard to say without sounding like a cheeseball or sounding like a jerk."


Vincent encountered some pretty cold shoulders in her attempts at the bar, but she did manage to go on about 30 dates with women as "Ned," mostly arranging them on the Internet.


Vincent said the dates were rarely fun and that the pressure of "Ned" having to prove himself was grueling. She was surprised that many women had no interest in a soft, vulnerable man.



"My prejudice was that the ideal man is a woman in a man's body. And I learned, no, that's really not. There are a lot of women out there who really want a manly man, and they want his stoicism," she said.

Vincent thought the perfect end to her 18-month saga would be to join a men-only therapy group, a place where guys tried to bond and show their emotions instead of hiding them.

Again, Vincent saw the men struggle with vulnerability. "They don't get to show the weakness, they don't get to show the affection, especially with each other. And so often all their emotions are shown in rage," she said.

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"Men are suffering. They have different problems than women have, but they don't have it better," she said. "They need our sympathy. They need our love, and maybe they need each other more than anything else. They need to be together."

Ironically, Vincent said, it took experiencing life as a man for her to appreciate being a woman. "I really like being a woman. ... I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."

I suppose it depends on how you define masculinity and femininity. I think it’s amazing that we could try to discuss this topic without even trying to narrow down a definition of those terms.

I have my own rule of thumb but I’d be interested in your take. What elements make up masculinity and femininity?

Can a gay man be masculine? Can a camp hetero man be masculine? I’d say the answer to both those questions is yes. I think it’s a fascinating question which lots of people assume they’re talking about the same thing, but they’re probably not.

So what makes up masculinity and femininity?

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

They're designed to compliant one another.

Men in general are not attracted to women who exude masculine traits.

Likewise women in general are not attracted to men sexually who exude feminine traits.

So could you gauge masculinity and femininity based on attractiveness to the opposite sex?

iptba wrote: »

Sounds like it could be this you are thinking of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Made_Man_(book)

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https://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982

It's probably worth watching through the whole thing.

I did skip through it myself, but noted that people in this thread had pulled a comment that "women like manly men" out of this documentary.

When in reality it was more nuanced than that. She said that she had revealed the truth to almost all women that she dated. Most were shocked and a little angry at first. Many walked away, but a surprising number wanted to continue. Said they'd felt "a connection" and wanted to explore the relationship further, even though they identified as heterosexual.

How many hetero men would do the same?

The discussion needs to not just focus on "many women like manly men". That's as unhelpful as pretending that women don't like sex because it puts pressure on men to be "manly" men.

It also needs to be acknowledged that physical attractiveness is one tiny aspect of attraction overall - for both men and women. Saying that women "in general" like manly men implies that if you're not a manly man you're going to struggle to find a partner. Which is simply not true. It only becomes true if you believe it.

Even the inverse isn't true; a woman being "feminine" doesn't guarantee that she's batting them away, and a woman who's more masculine can be a complete magnet for every man in the room.

Attraction is way more subtle than just physical appearance for both sexes, and while the physical is certainly a strong initial push, it burns away very quickly.

seamus wrote: »

The discussion needs to not just focus on "many women like manly men". That's as unhelpful as pretending that women don't like sex because it puts pressure on men to be "manly" men.
....

It also needs to be acknowledged that physical attractiveness is one tiny aspect of attraction overall - for both men and women. Saying that women "in general" like manly men implies that if you're not a manly man you're going to struggle to find a partner. Which is simply not true. It only becomes true if you believe it.

it could also be motivational, if you take manliness to mean things like being assertive, taking risks (the good kind) etc. then incorporating these things into your thinking would make a "better person" and more attractive to women to boot.

silverharp wrote: »

it could also be motivational, if you take manliness to mean things like being assertive, taking risks (the good kind) etc. then incorporating these things into your thinking would make a "better person" and more attractive to women to boot.

This is kind of the point of the question I asked above. Is masculinity only comprised of good things?

Is that also to say that assertiveness in a woman would add to her masculinity and make her less feminine and less appealing to men on average?

silverharp wrote: »

For example the stereotypical introverted computer nerd, this kind of person would be associated with being male but masculine isn't a word that would come to mind, whereas think of the traits of someone who does a very physical job that requires certain skills say a steeplejack, this kind of person would display more masculine traits like the physical abilities and desire to actually do the job.

So does a trait need to be good in order to be masculine?

I would have thought a trait that is mostly associated with men would be masculine regardless of whether it's good or not.

tritium wrote: »

Why do you need to assign a trait as good or bad though? Take for example risk taking, a trait that’s in most studies found to be a more ‘male’ characteristic. Risk taking isn’t actually good or bad, it’s just a solution to someone’s utility curve. When risks go bad it’s easy to apply hindsight however not taking risk, the more classically feminine trait, also has a negative possible outcome.

Any trait can have examples of its negative and positive application, however it’s flawed to describe a trait as good or bad. It’s one of the reasons why the hang up in some academics areas on being masculine bothers me quite a bit- it’s narrowing a much broader debate about how both genders display their ‘nature’ for want of a better word, typically with the aim of finding something ‘wrong’

that's a very well put and insightful post.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't need to assign a trait as good or bad. I as hoping the other poster would come around to that conclusion of their own accord. I said as much h in the post above that masculine traits would be masculine regardless of good or bad.

Were still no closer to narrowing down a usable definition of masculine and feminine.

You, and only you, brought in the concept of good and bad. Telling me you know it’s irrelevant after the fact is a bit pointless tbh

At any rate my answer gives you one, probably imperfect, way to define masculine and feminine for a given trait, assuming you can assign a distribution for each gender across the spectrum for that trait

tritium wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't need to assign a trait as good or bad. I as hoping the other poster would come around to that conclusion of their own accord. I said as much h in the post above that masculine traits would be masculine regardless of good or bad.

Were still no closer to narrowing down a usable definition of masculine and feminine.

You, and only you, brought in the concept of good and bad. Telling me you know it’s irrelevant after the fact is a bit pointless tbh

At any rate my answer gives you one, probably imperfect, way to define masculine and feminine for a given trait, assuming you can assign a distribution for each gender across the spectrum for that trait

I asked whether it was the case. I didn't say I think more the case and to clarify, I don't think it's the case. I think good and bad are irrelevant to determining masculine or feminine traits.

So just to clarify, are you in agreement with my earlier statement that masculinity and femininity are more to do with traits that are more prevalent in men or women respectively and not to do with good or badness?

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Do you agree with that definition? Would you consider it complete? It only really deals with physical characteristics so it is pretty interchangeable with male.

I have a sense in how the term is used, as far as a forum like this I'd generally stick to male and female and go with the distribution graph idea mentioned above by another poster to compare or contrast the genders in the round. but for example I have heard women saying they have more masculine traits or some men saying they have a more feminine side or I can get if a women says they like a "manly man" , which at a base level is just a mixture of genetics features and particular testosterone levels perhaps which influence behaviour.

You mentioned traits that the opposite sex admire but it also might be traits that the same sex admire hence the reason we like hero movies or admire someone like Bill Clinton for his ability to command a room with his personality.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No someone else mentioned that in general women are attracted to masculine men and men are attracted to feminine women. I was asking further questions about that statement.

I think it is the case that most people use the terms on the basis that you know it when you see it. An 'ah shur you know yourself' definition. I'd imagine that if it can't be described in a way that people agree on, then how can we have a discussion about masculinity and femininit?

I think it should be clear that when people throw around terms like masculine and feminine, they're thinking of different things if they know what they're thinking of at all. Nobody has a problem using the terms but it's proving quite difficult to pin down what is meant by those terms

we are dealing with people, just because you cant break it down to x number of chemical reactions doesn't mean it lacks any meaning. If I asked you who would you judge to be more feminine, the actress Emily Clarke or the pundit Julie Bindel, are you saying you wouldn't have a clue how to go about answering the question? or more likely it would be an easy enough question to answer