farmchoice wrote: » one of the biggest shocks she got was that by and large woman were looking for manly men as opposed to more feminine men, she was taken aback by this.
nigel_wilson wrote: » So is that really the case with effeminate men or more importantly femininity in general? Perhaps a man may look very posh and 'cute' with androgynous clothing but do most people really respect him less compared to if he had a more masculine persona?
farmchoice wrote: » i watched a documentary about a woman in America who wanted to know what it was like to be a man, she was a lesbian and a feminist activist and came at it from that angle. anyway she lived as a man for about a year and in general her opinion of men and their struggles etc ect changed. during the doc she went on numerous dates as a man and one of the biggest shocks she got was that by and large woman were looking for manly men as opposed to more feminine men, she was taken aback by this.
Vincent even dabbled in the art of picking up women and agreed to wear a hidden camera for "20/20" during her exploits. She was quickly reminded that in this arena, it's women who have the power, she said. "In fact, we sit there and we just with one word, 'no,' will crush someone," she said. "We don't have to do the part where you cross the room and you go up to a stranger that you've never met in the middle of a room full of people and say the first words. And those first words are so hard to say without sounding like a cheeseball or sounding like a jerk." Vincent encountered some pretty cold shoulders in her attempts at the bar, but she did manage to go on about 30 dates with women as "Ned," mostly arranging them on the Internet. Vincent said the dates were rarely fun and that the pressure of "Ned" having to prove himself was grueling. She was surprised that many women had no interest in a soft, vulnerable man. "My prejudice was that the ideal man is a woman in a man's body. And I learned, no, that's really not. There are a lot of women out there who really want a manly man, and they want his stoicism," she said.
Vincent thought the perfect end to her 18-month saga would be to join a men-only therapy group, a place where guys tried to bond and show their emotions instead of hiding them. Again, Vincent saw the men struggle with vulnerability. "They don't get to show the weakness, they don't get to show the affection, especially with each other. And so often all their emotions are shown in rage," she said.
"Men are suffering. They have different problems than women have, but they don't have it better," she said. "They need our sympathy. They need our love, and maybe they need each other more than anything else. They need to be together." Ironically, Vincent said, it took experiencing life as a man for her to appreciate being a woman. "I really like being a woman. ... I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."
nigel_wilson wrote: » He says he ignores any haters as most people are accepting but I do wonder if that's an isolated opinion? Would a fair amount of people think that about femininity in general? I have seen the exact statement online being made on Reddit's 'theredpill' and 'FeMRA Debates' where someone explained that there are two types of unaccepting reactions towards non-gender conforming men. 1.) People who react with strong/silent disapproval or people who are 'okay with it' but respect the person less. They gave an example of 'liking someone but not respecting them' e.g. the class clown who you like hanging around but wouldn't take him seriously with consulting him for any academic work.
DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: » They're designed to compliant one another. Men in general are not attracted to women who exude masculine traits. Likewise women in general are not attracted to men sexually who exude feminine traits.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » So could you gauge masculinity and femininity based on attractiveness to the opposite sex?
iptba wrote: » Sounds like it could be this you are thinking of:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Made_Man_(book) ---https://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982
silverharp wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » So could you gauge masculinity and femininity based on attractiveness to the opposite sex? interesting way of putting it but its probably more complicated , you have what people think of as masculine "traits" then there are "traits" that tend to be male on a numbers basis but not considered so masculine, just behaviour etc more typical of males. then you have traits or abilities which are more independent of sex but which might be more desirable in one sex than the other. A male doctor versus a female doctor for instance would throw up gender differences but trying to apply the logic of your question would break down some
seamus wrote: » The discussion needs to not just focus on "many women like manly men". That's as unhelpful as pretending that women don't like sex because it puts pressure on men to be "manly" men. .... It also needs to be acknowledged that physical attractiveness is one tiny aspect of attraction overall - for both men and women. Saying that women "in general" like manly men implies that if you're not a manly man you're going to struggle to find a partner. Which is simply not true. It only becomes true if you believe it.
silverharp wrote: » it could also be motivational, if you take manliness to mean things like being assertive, taking risks (the good kind) etc. then incorporating these things into your thinking would make a "better person" and more attractive to women to boot.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » I imagine it is much more complicated than attractiveness. What's an example of "what people think of as masculine "traits" then there are "traits" that tend to be male on a numbers basis but not considered so masculine, just behaviour etc more typical of males". What would be a masculine trait and what would be a trait that tends to be male but isn't considered masculine?
silverharp wrote: » For example the stereotypical introverted computer nerd, this kind of person would be associated with being male but masculine isn't a word that would come to mind, whereas think of the traits of someone who does a very physical job that requires certain skills say a steeplejack, this kind of person would display more masculine traits like the physical abilities and desire to actually do the job.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » So does a trait need to be good in order to be masculine? I would have thought a trait that is mostly associated with men would be masculine regardless of whether it's good or not.
tritium wrote: » Why do you need to assign a trait as good or bad though? Take for example risk taking, a trait that’s in most studies found to be a more ‘male’ characteristic. Risk taking isn’t actually good or bad, it’s just a solution to someone’s utility curve. When risks go bad it’s easy to apply hindsight however not taking risk, the more classically feminine trait, also has a negative possible outcome. Any trait can have examples of its negative and positive application, however it’s flawed to describe a trait as good or bad. It’s one of the reasons why the hang up in some academics areas on being masculine bothers me quite a bit- it’s narrowing a much broader debate about how both genders display their ‘nature’ for want of a better word, typically with the aim of finding something ‘wrong’
tritium wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » So does a trait need to be good in order to be masculine? I would have thought a trait that is mostly associated with men would be masculine regardless of whether it's good or not. Why do you need to assign a trait as good or bad though? Take for example risk taking, a trait that’s in most studies found to be a more ‘male’ characteristic. Risk taking isn’t actually good or bad, it’s just a solution to someone’s utility curve. When risks go bad it’s easy to apply hindsight however not taking risk, the more classically feminine trait, also has a negative possible outcome. Any trait can have examples of its negative and positive application, however it’s flawed to describe a trait as good or bad. It’s one of the reasons why the hang up in some academics areas on being masculine bothers me quite a bit- it’s narrowing a much broader debate about how both genders display their ‘nature’ for want of a better word, typically with the aim of finding something ‘wrong’
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » I don't need to assign a trait as good or bad. I as hoping the other poster would come around to that conclusion of their own accord. I said as much h in the post above that masculine traits would be masculine regardless of good or bad. Were still no closer to narrowing down a usable definition of masculine and feminine.
possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men. "handsome, muscled, and driven, he's a prime example of masculinity" synonyms: virility, manliness, maleness, vigour, strength, muscularity, ruggedness, toughness, robustness
tritium wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » I don't need to assign a trait as good or bad. I as hoping the other poster would come around to that conclusion of their own accord. I said as much h in the post above that masculine traits would be masculine regardless of good or bad. Were still no closer to narrowing down a usable definition of masculine and feminine. You, and only you, brought in the concept of good and bad. Telling me you know it’s irrelevant after the fact is a bit pointless tbh At any rate my answer gives you one, probably imperfect, way to define masculine and feminine for a given trait, assuming you can assign a distribution for each gender across the spectrum for that trait
silverharp wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » So does a trait need to be good in order to be masculine? I would have thought a trait that is mostly associated with men would be masculine regardless of whether it's good or not. but then it would just be interchangeable with male? here is the google definition of the term masculine possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men. "handsome, muscled, and driven, he's a prime example of masculinity" synonyms: virility, manliness, maleness, vigour, strength, muscularity, ruggedness, toughness, robustness
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Do you agree with that definition? Would you consider it complete? It only really deals with physical characteristics so it is pretty interchangeable with male.
silverharp wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Do you agree with that definition? Would you consider it complete? It only really deals with physical characteristics so it is pretty interchangeable with male. I have a sense in how the term is used, as far as a forum like this I'd generally stick to male and female and go with the distribution graph idea mentioned above by another poster to compare or contrast the genders in the round. but for example I have heard women saying they have more masculine traits or some men saying they have a more feminine side or I can get if a women says they like a "manly man" , which at a base level is just a mixture of genetics features and particular testosterone levels perhaps which influence behaviour. You mentioned traits that the opposite sex admire but it also might be traits that the same sex admire hence the reason we like hero movies or admire someone like Bill Clinton for his ability to command a room with his personality.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » No someone else mentioned that in general women are attracted to masculine men and men are attracted to feminine women. I was asking further questions about that statement. I think it is the case that most people use the terms on the basis that you know it when you see it. An 'ah shur you know yourself' definition. I'd imagine that if it can't be described in a way that people agree on, then how can we have a discussion about masculinity and femininit? I think it should be clear that when people throw around terms like masculine and feminine, they're thinking of different things if they know what they're thinking of at all. Nobody has a problem using the terms but it's proving quite difficult to pin down what is meant by those terms
