Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

....... · 29-05-2018 10:42AM

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ohnonotgmail · 29-05-2018 10:43AM

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

Reducing all anti-abortion advocates to people with an "anti-woman bias" is simplistic and reductive.

Many women voted against abortion - are they anti-women too?

Have you considered that perhaps some no voters are concerned for what they consider the life of the unborn, rather than hating women in general and voting no for the sake of oppressing them further?

I'm more concerned with the fact that they supported an amendment that has done harm to women over the last 35 years and totally failed in what it actually set out to do which was ban abortion. That sort of simple-mindedness is not to be admired.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 29-05-2018 10:43AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

You literally just took 1 line out of her whole post completely out of context. And then you wonder why people get frustrated with you.

He quoted several parts of her posts and responded to each, and as far as I can see did not misrepresent anything quoted?

ohnonotgmail · 29-05-2018 10:44AM

....... wrote: »

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I dont think he is as clever as he thinks. People have seen through him. I've been a FF voter all my life. never again.

Water John · 29-05-2018 10:45AM

Elm, its more nuanced than your saying, in relation to politicians. Without Billy Kelleher +2 other FF, who proposed the 12 weeks, along with Michael Martin's intervention, this Referendum would probably have not got to first base.
I contrast, our Minister for Ag, just let out a whisper, which nobody heard that he would be voting Yes, about a week before the vote.
In contrast the 8th would never have been there, except for Charlie Haughey.

ELM327 · 29-05-2018 10:45AM

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

Reducing all anti-abortion advocates to people with an "anti-woman bias" is simplistic and reductive.

Many women voted against abortion - are they anti-women too?

Have you considered that perhaps some no voters are concerned for what they consider the life of the unborn, rather than hating women in general and voting no for the sake of oppressing them further?

The life of the unborn is a moot point as Irish terminations happened every day, of every week, of every month, of every year.

In effect this referendum was to reduce Ireland's abortion limit from 24 weeks to 12, and allow women to have the procedure at home. Ending the blood flow in ryanair or irish ferries toilets.

Any woman who voted no needs their head examined.

ArmaniJeanss · 29-05-2018 10:45AM

I wouldn't have a problem with politicians who voted No and/or campaigned for No.

But I'd have a big issue with those who voted against having the referendum at all back when the Bill was going through the Dail. That was extremely anti-democratic of them.

ELM327 · 29-05-2018 10:46AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont think he is as clever as he thinks. People have seen through him. I've be a FF voter all my life. never again.

+1
Never again. Many years and elections of voting FF. Gone. And I can't imagine i'm the only one.

Water John wrote: »

Elm, its more nuanced than your saying, in relation to politicians. Without Billy Kelleher +2 other FF, who proposed the 12 weeks, along with Michael Martin's intervention, this Referendum would probably have not got to first base.
I contrast, our Minister for Ag, just let out a whisper, which nobody heard that he would be voting Yes, about a week before the vote.
In contrast the 8th would never have been there, except for Charlie Haughey.

The referendum was brought about by Enda Kenny and the citizens assembly.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2018 10:47AM

Kumejima wrote: »

Just to explain it from a No voters perspective. Most of us believe the unborn child is a human being. A living child. No lesser worth than a 1 year old toddler.

The experiences of Irish women and couples who experience miscarriage proves that to be false. Nobody in society, the health system or even in the church really acts as if they believe an embryo is equivalent to a toddler. There are no autopsies, funerals, blessings, sacraments, gravestones, or homicide investigations for dead embryos.

The other reason the comparison with a baby is ridiculous is that, obviously, a baby is no longer inside a woman's body and entirely dependent on it and affecting that woman's health. Any competent adult can take care of it, and it happens often enough that someone other than the mother does.

Water John · 29-05-2018 10:48AM

Martin took a big, political risk. If No won, he was gone, as leader of FF.
Don't be reconstructing what he did, through the prism, of hindsight.

SusieBlue · 29-05-2018 10:49AM

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

He quoted several parts of her posts and responded to each, and as far as I can see did not misrepresent anything quoted?

No, he replied to 1 line out of her long post, and then quoted someone else (also out of context, but anyway).

7aubzxk43m2sni · 29-05-2018 10:51AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

No, he replied to 1 line out of her long post, and then quoted someone else (also out of context, but anyway).

What did he misrepresent from her post?

kunst nugget · 29-05-2018 10:51AM

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
Never again. Many years and elections of voting FF. Gone. And I can't imagine i'm the only one.

FF have always been the main political party that's been most heavily pro-life and you're only deciding to not vote for them now?

iguana · 29-05-2018 10:52AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Why are you targeting her in particular? There were plenty of politicians that adopted a pro-life stance. The pro-choice side won and I'm delighted with that but deciding to name and shame politicians that didn't agree with that stance is tacky imo.

What about those who voted against having a referendum? Whatever about politicians who decided to vote in a different way to the majority. But those who voted against the democratic process are an absolute disgrace. They thought there was a chance the public might vote in a way they didn't like so they sought to prevent the public from voting.:mad:

Ineedaname · 29-05-2018 10:52AM

Igotadose wrote: »

Just watched the Simon Harris interview with Claire Byrne. He said the Medical council needs to do something about this, that is, they need to clarify their guidelines regarding referring women to doctors who will perform an abortion if the doctor being asked will not. To me, this means the guidelines aren't in place yet. Probably they will be, I imagine the medical council knows they have something to do here. I expect nothing changes until the legislation's proposed at least, if not passed.

On another note, I've found 3 links showing lawyers, psychiatrists and doctors that have come out against repeal: (these are from anti-repeal sites)

https://www.save8.ie/statement-by-lawyers/
https://www.save8.ie/statement-from-psychiatrists/
https://www.dublindeclaration.com/signatories/

(note that the dublindeclaration's a bit more subtle than the other links)

I don't see why referring a patient for an abortion is any different to referring them for any other treatment. They are obligated to provide the best medical advice they can. If they refuse then they are not fit to practice.

SusieBlue · 29-05-2018 10:54AM

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

What did he misrepresent from her post?

Are you just here to pick apart other peoples posts or have you anything constructive to add besides your endless criticism?

ELM327 · 29-05-2018 10:57AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

FF have always been the main political party that's been most heavily pro-life and you're only deciding to not vote for them now?

All political parties have been publicly pro life (except labour - who I would never vote for) until fairly recently.

....... · 29-05-2018 11:00AM

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Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2018 11:07AM

Deleted User wrote: »

From what I've read, the doctors failed to realise that she was in danger of dying from sepsis.

It's obvious to anyone that a woman with a dying pregnancy and an open cervix for a period of days is at serious risk of sepsis.

Once they realised this, they performed an abortion

No they did not. They waited for the heartbeat to stop. She expelled the dead foetus naturally before they could remove it.

The symptoms of sepsis are identical to that of pregnancy so its difficult to diagnose.

Nonsense.

It cannot be said with certainty that an earlier abortion would have saved her life.

Sepsis killed her
The sepsis was caused by waiting for days for her to miscarry, instead of carrying out an abortion which in her situation is best medical practice
They waited for days because there was still a foetal heartbeat, and they believed that under the 8th amendment they had to. There was no legislation in place at the time saying otherwise.

Join the dots.

I'm 100% pro repeal and pro choice

I'm the King of Siam.

but I do think her death has been used as a political tool.

You're damn right that it's been used as a campaigning point, it's a shame on the Irish people that we (or our parents) voted for laws which allowed this to happen, it's a shame which had to be prevented from happening ever again.

This is the conclusion I came to not too long ago when I did a bit of research.

Clearly you didn't do much, or only did it on anti-choice propaganda sites.

Water John · 29-05-2018 11:07AM

I think Minister Harris made it clear, that refusal to refer, would be breaking the law. We'll see how many really stay with their stance?

29-05-2018 11:08AM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

While Mary didn,t specify her views on abortion in her election leaflets, prior to the last general election all candidates were asked to complete/take part an online survey on whichcandidate.ie to give their views on the various issues some candidiates took part in that online survey while others didn,t . Mary took part in that online survey & gave her reply to the issue of abortion " as only when the mothers life is at risk from illness or suicide " .

Link is provided to Mary,s profile from whichcandidate.ie .

http://whichcandidate.ie/events/5/constituencies/48/candidates/296

Is this the same survey the pro life campaign organised and published the results of on their site also, or a different survey?

7aubzxk43m2sni · 29-05-2018 11:12AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Are you just here to pick apart other peoples posts or have you anything constructive to add besides your endless criticism?

Does that mean he did not quote her out of context or misrepresent her argument?

Apologies if you feel like I am not adding to the discussion.

The point I initially wanted to make before we got distracted is that we should be cautious in what happens next. Naming and shaming every no voter is not a good course.

You are entitled to vote for someone based on their vote in the referendum, no one is disputing that.

Likewise if you want to choose a different GP because of their views on abortion, you are entitled to do so.

What I think is problematic is the proposition that every no voter (including politicians, doctors and solicitors??) should be smeared and discredited, because they are women haters or oppressors. We are going in the direction of silencing everyone with a dissenting option, and that is rather worrying.

Furthermore the refusal to engage in conversation with people (online or otherwise) based on their views is not productive in the slightest. We achieve nothing if we surround ourselves with people of the same opinion and bask in our superiority over the "others" on the other side.

The yes campaign won, I would propose that the next step for those who wish to remain involved in the process would be to work to ensure that the legislation that goes through regarding abortion is solid.

Wrongway1985 · 29-05-2018 11:13AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

FF have always been the main political party that's been most heavily pro-life and you're only deciding to not vote for them now?

Healy-Raes, Mattie McGrath ex FF

gormdubhgorm · 29-05-2018 11:19AM

No sign of this thread been terminated yet will be interest to see how many weeks it is given.....

The fun and games are really going to start now with the legislation.

All the different agendas will be pitted against each other from the yes side.

The genie is out of the bottle and people should be careful for what they wish for.

The way some are going on you would swear abortion is as simple as changing the colour of your hair.

"A woman's place is in the revolution" etc is one of the more annoying slogans I saw.

On the other hand the Catholic church has done themselves no favours in the debate either.

With the likes of Bishop's offering confessions for those who voted yes!

Both hardliners on the yes and no side of this debate annoyed me if I am honest.

It is was not as simple as yes or no.

There was little nuance in the whole thing.

Personally I ended up voting no not because 'I don't trust women' but because I don't trust the legislature.

Millions will now have to be spend getting organised training from countries that already have abortion, couselling etc

If the country cannot even get smear tests right what will happen with abortion?

I was veering slightly towards yes (savita case in particular), when a conversation with a yes campaigner(at the door) made me a definite no!

The Yes Canvasser and Me

Me: I was thinking about the Savita case main reason to vote yes

However, I don't get this give women the choice they already have choices.

If your mother had the choice you might not be here to have the choice!

Yes Canvasser: That's hypotetical

Me: I am also worried about Downs Syndrome, designer abortions, - ethical questions like that

Also what is wrong with adoption as a choice.

I have had longer recoveries from surgeries then 9 months (which is true) and look at the joy it would bring others?

Yes Canvasser: We are not there to give children to others...adoption laws are difficult

Me: OK... I have a relation who adopted his son and he is doing very well for himself now.

He would not have got that chance if he was aborted.

Yes Canvasser: When I was pregnant I was in so much pain only for my mother....

Me: But it is only 9 months!

Yes Canvasser: (face like thunder) that is very patronising (closed the door and stormed off)

Then it hit me...

It got me thinking on the two extremes

Yes - Selfish Act - MY body - MY choice - it was all MY, MY, MY, on the posters

A hopeful elimination of consequence - looking for a quick fix

Individualist - mé féin

No - Selfless Act - put up with pain to bring another life into the world (unless a threat to the life of the mother)

Thinking of others rather then yourself.

Dealing with consequences to actions.

That is what it boiled down to for me in it's simplest terms

kunst nugget · 29-05-2018 11:20AM

ELM327 wrote: »

All political parties have been publicly pro life (except labour - who I would never vote for) until fairly recently.

But suddenly it's an issue for you?

I've always voted Labour based on their stance on social issues…

Movementarian · 29-05-2018 11:21AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

For those who blame the death of Savita Halappanaver on the Eight Amendment, how do you explain this medical neglegence settlement?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/medical-negligence-case-taken-by-savita-halappanavars-widower-settled-out-of-court-34526609.html
A medical negligence case being taken by the widower of Savita Halappanavar has been settled out of court.

The case, which was being taken by Praveen Halappanavar against the HSE and obstetrician Katherine Astbury was due to begin tomorrow in the High Court.

However, a source has told the Irish Independent the case was settled late last week.

And this article in The Irish Examiner?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/savitas-death-is-not-about-abortion-it-is-about-medical-negligence-247993.html

The fact is, a finding of medical negligence is an extremely difficult outcome, and I wonder how many people are even aware of its relevance in the case of Savita Halappanavar? Her medical team were perfectly entitled to terminate her pregnancy; as it transpires, they were actually at fault for NOT having done so.

For the 100th time, the HSE report clearly states that 'concerns about the law affected the judgement of the medical team'. Its there in black and white, the 8th amendment directly impacted the care she was given. It was medical negligence yes for sure but it was influenced by the law in place. Its not hard to grasp.

robarmstrong · 29-05-2018 11:22AM

There is nothing democratic about voting to retain a constitutional amendment that would force women to remain pregnant (at least in this country) despite the likes of rapists, abusive partners, FFA, uterine abnormalities, issues with mental health being extremely valid reasons for abortion (of which a lot of no voters *from my experience here* would agree were valid reasons bar maybe the mental health) purely because what was proposed didn't suit or sit well with certain individuals.

There is nothing democratic about retaining a constitutional amendment that forces medical professionals to wait until a woman is on death's door to grant her an abortion she needs.

The 8th should have never been brought into place, we shouldn't have been voting on repealing or retaining it, we should have been banding together to come up with appropriate, solid legislation, but unfortunately it didn't go that way.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2018 11:22AM

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

That is very different to shaming politicians for their stance.

You can only shame someone for their stance if their stance is shameful, so you sorta torpedoed your own argument there.

I don't think it's shameful for a politician to be anti-choice provided they're upfront about it so voters are aware. If they get elected then it's reasonable for them to express their view in the Oireachtas (not ridiculous filibustering or obstruction though) provided that they accept there is a majority opposing their view.

It's important that pro-choice voters elect only pro-choice TDs, as the incoming abortion legislation could be tightened or overturned in future by a Dail vote. Unlikely I'd say, but possible.

SusieBlue · 29-05-2018 11:24AM

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

Does that mean he did not quote her out of context or misrepresent her argument?

Apologies if you feel like I am not adding to the discussion.

The point I initially wanted to make before we got distracted is that we should be cautious in what happens next. Naming and shaming every no voter is not a good course.

You are entitled to vote for someone based on their vote in the referendum, no one is disputing that.

Likewise if you want to choose a different GP because of their views on abortion, you are entitled to do so.

What I think is problematic is the proposition that every no voter (including politicians, doctors and solicitors??) should be smeared and discredited, because they are women haters or oppressors. We are going in the direction of silencing everyone with a dissenting option, and that is rather worrying.

Furthermore the refusal to engage in conversation with people (online or otherwise) based on their views is not productive in the slightest. We achieve nothing if we surround ourselves with people of the same opinion and bask in our superiority over the "others" on the other side.

The yes campaign won, I would propose that the next step for those who wish to remain involved in the process would be to work to ensure that the legislation that goes through regarding abortion is solid.

He did quote her out of context, because he removed 5-6 lines of the post which explained her position on it, specifically regarding Savita and the No sides unyielding propensity to deny the 8th had any hand in her death.

I think you are overstating things here.
This isn't a movement to smear every single person with pro-life views.

GP's are in a position of trust, that trust is compromised if doctor/patient priorities don't align.
TD's and politicians represent us in government. I couldn't and wouldn't vote for someone whose views are the polar opposite to mine.

Beyond that, I don't really care if my hairdresser or butcher or colleague in work is Pro-Life, its irrelevant. It has no bearing on my life.
Their views are their own and I respect their right to hold them, it only becomes a problem when those views impact my life.

In your regards to comments about online - I've been posting on this topic here for at least the last 2 years.
I'm not afraid to have my views challenged.
What I do have a problem with is misrepresenting someone's point by quoting 1 line out of a post, failure to back up arguments, and people posting with no proof of their claims.
Unfortunately these threads can be rife with people doing all of the above.

....... · 29-05-2018 11:25AM

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Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

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