The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

tigger123 · 24-05-2018 09:17PM

nullzero wrote: »

Humans don't always make the correct long term decisions in favour of making the more convenient shirt term decision which at the time seems the correct decision. Humans are fallible and it takes two to make a baby, and men have no rights to their children in this country.

Not really. It's the women's decision.

You're kinda shifting the argument there with the bolded part.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 09:18PM

Dressing gown wrote: »

If I could copy and paste every time you’ve gone on about the “small”!numbers “tiny” percentages etc I’d just clutter up this thread with pages of quotations.

The fact is the numbers we are talking about here are massive. Abortion affects thousands of Irish women every year. Small percentages of big numbers are still big numbers of people being affected by this. Unless you know someone personally (and i would guess you probably will at some stage in your life) the hard cases are friends and family, real people to all of us. I just don’t think it’s good enough for us to turn our backs on them when the other people that want an abortion are having them anyway. It’s a no brainier for me and I’m sorry if you are struggling with your conscience but my conscience is raging that people don’t care enough about the hard cases. Everyone meets their own maker. Let the other people make their own choices but please choose to help the families that have no choice.

Using emotive language won't alter much. Yes I do know of hard cases. It doesn't mean we should put every babys life at risk particulalry thousands and thousands who have nothing whatsoever to do with hard cases.

Have a referendum for the hard cases and legislate for them.

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:18PM

nullzero wrote: »

Humans don't always make the correct long term decisions in favour of making the more convenient shirt term decision which at the time seems the correct decision. Humans are fallible and it takes two to make a baby, and men have no rights to their children in this country.

How about I make you decisions for you in case you make the wrong ones?

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:19PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Because it’s her healthcare and she’s the one who is pregnant.

Men have reproductive rights when it comes to healthcare for their reproductive system.
They can treat stis, treat their cancers and get help with whatever is malfunctioning. . .

And women don't have the right to treatment for comparable problems?
Men have no rights to their children and women are favored legally in instances of marital breakdown etc... Men have no reproductive rights but its not a hip trendy issue.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:19PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Just back from walk. Met yes and no canvassers out. Spoke to both. The No side were bit friendlier as well I told them Im a No vote.

Interestingly Both said its slightly in favour of No the people they spoke to over last week. That surprised me to be honest. Both said those with minds made up no point debating so both going for the "undecided" as such.
This was in a town of like 25,000 in the midlands.

Saw a graphic on twitter which
Indicates No need 55-65% in the midlands to be on track for a win

joe40 · 24-05-2018 09:19PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Actual uk abortion stats, linked numerous times in this thread

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

Those are comparing the past few years and not giving the actual picture.

In 1967 when it was brought in, the abortion rate was less than 3%.

In 2016, it was over 20%.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedkingdom.html

Thoughts?

Did Britain, pre 1967 have a neighbouring country to which it had easy access to in order to get an abortion. Did they have an actual constitutional right to travel to that country to get an abortion.
Our abortion rates are probably at an equilibrium now, a yes vote won't significantly increase numbers of abortions but will make it more humane and safer.

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:19PM

nullzero wrote: »

What say does a a person unrelated to the situation ever have in anything.
You want to get a new bike, I don't get to say anything about it, it's nothing to do with me and I don't know you.
You're using emotive BS to try invalidate a simple point.

You're using your vote to decide what a woman can do.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:19PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How about I make you decisions for you in case you make the wrong ones?

How about you come up with an intelligent argument and we'll take it from there, no emotive BS.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-05-2018 09:20PM

Gintonious wrote: »

So is there an area around the polling station that you aren't allowed to have posters? Because they are right outside the 2 near me.

100m from the entrance of the polling station, this applies from 30 minutes before the polls open. Call the Gardai if this is violated.

24-05-2018 09:20PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

We were born and grew up in Catholic Ireland and the Dail reflected that. We were safe enough.
Todays and future Dails are very different with a strong influence from left wing parties and liberals in parties like FG. They want and will introduce abortion on demand.

Hmmm safe enough in good old catholic Ireland were we, you might want to tell that to the men and women who were abused by the religious orders that they were perfectly safe and fine in your opinion.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:20PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You're using your vote to decide what a woman can do.

Emotive nonsense.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:21PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How about I make you decisions for you in case you make the wrong ones?

Isn't that what your yes vote aims to achieve t/m

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 09:22PM

Try_harder wrote: »

Its the converse of Women cant be trusted with their own bodies, so we must tell them!

it's not just 'their' bodies, is it though?
if it was, do you really think anyone would have a problem with it?

(i asked this in a previous thread, got some seriously misandric, vitriolic responses)

vicwatson · 24-05-2018 09:23PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

100m from the entrance of the polling station, this applies from 30 minutes before the polls open. Call the Gardai if this is violated.

And it will be

Section 147 of the Electoral Act 1992 iirc

gctest50 · 24-05-2018 09:23PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't that what your yes vote aims to achieve t/m

It's not going to make it compulsorary

Mtx · 24-05-2018 09:23PM

Abortion parties are repulsive

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:23PM

nullzero wrote: »

How about you come up with an intelligent argument and we'll take it from there, no emotive BS.

Do you have "emotive bs" copied and ready to paste at the end of every reply?

You are using your vote to tell women you don't know what they can and can't do with their own health. That's fact.
Replay again all you want with your catchphrase, it won't make it any more true or what I say any less so.

tigger123 · 24-05-2018 09:23PM

nullzero wrote: »

And women don't have the right to treatment for comparable problems?
Men have no rights to their children and women are favored legally in instances of marital breakdown etc... Men have no reproductive rights but its not a hip trendy issue.

This referendum came from a grass roots campaign - there is literally no better example out there of what can be done when people stop complaining about something, and start lobbying and marching about it.

If you feel that the issue of men's rights needs similar attention, you should start a similart campaign.

The Taoiseach himself said today that political system didn't want to grab the nettle on abortion, but were forced into it by the pressure from below.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:23PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

100m from the entrance of the polling station, this applies from 30 minutes before the polls open. Call the Gardai if this is violated.

The statute you (iirc) put up only referred to elections not referenda.

Dunno what constitutional amendment you'd need to repeal to liberalize and widen the remit of that law.

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:23PM

tigger123 wrote: »

Not really. It's the women's decision.

You're kinda shifting the argument there with the bolded part.

I mentioned above that in consentual relationship where a pregnancy occurs and the woman just doesn't fancy having a child should the father have no say?

One instance I can think of is the late Jonathan Philbin Bowman, his partner became pregnant and didn't want to be a mother, he raised his son himself and his partner went off traveling and doing her own thing. Does a man not deserve to be a father?

Kh1993 · 24-05-2018 09:24PM

Save the 8th out tonight in my area. Interestingly, they stuck to the main road (pricier houses) and skipped our cul de sac (considered more working class).

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 09:24PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't that what your yes vote aims to achieve t/m

How is me saying to a woman "you choose what's best for you" in any way me making a decision for her?

namloc1980 · 24-05-2018 09:25PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

100m from the entrance of the polling station, this applies from 30 minutes before the polls open. Call the Gardai if this is violated.

No it's 50 metres.

gctest50 · 24-05-2018 09:25PM

Mtx wrote: »

Abortion parties are repulsive

The "party" would be for getting rid of the 8th (which has already cost lives)

Mtx wrote: »

_Brian wrote: »

Also worth noting that MCPA isn’t licensed to be used vis knapsack sprayer

Im a criminal then, the knapsack police will be around shortly to arrest me.

Just her · 24-05-2018 09:25PM

pleas advice wrote: »

i thought we should TRUST women?

figure EXCLUDES miscarriages, but includes stillborn. it DOES take into account abortions provided to non-nationals.

including miscarriages, the figure is about 1 in 7,

Does the figure include illegal abortions where the woman has ordered pills online which still happens despite it being legal in England? I would have thought those figure s would be hard to quantify

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:25PM

tigger123 wrote: »

This referendum came from a grass roots campaign - there is literally no better example out there of what can be done when people stop complaining about something, and start lobbying and marching about it.

If you feel that the issue of men's rights needs similar attention, you should start a similart campaign.

The Taoiseach himself said today that political system didn't want to grab the nettle on abortion, but were forced into it by the pressure from below.

Well it's inherently linked to this situation, a woman under the proposed changes is judge jury and executioner (apologies if the last word is too on the nose) and the man has no say because trust women.

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 09:26PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Berserker wrote: »

This kind of one line nonsense annoys me. Would you trust one of the scissor sisters?

I would trust them to make decisions about their own healthcare.
That’s the trust we’re talking about.

I'd trust them to have an abortion too...

nullzero · 24-05-2018 09:26PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Do you have "emotive bs" copied and ready to paste at the end of every reply?

You are using your vote to tell women you don't know what they can and can't do with their own health. That's fact.
Replay again all you want with your catchphrase, it won't make it any more true or what I say any less so.

No I make an exception for week populism peddled by the same person ad nauseum.

jos28 · 24-05-2018 09:27PM

After all the months of campaigning and debating polling day is nearly here. 100 years ago this year Irish women were finally given the chance to vote. As an Irish woman I feel privileged and excited to be voting tomorrow.
I have been very lucky, I had 2 pregnancies resulting in 2 healthy babies. I have been lucky, I was in a solid relationship with a supportive family surrounding me.
In an ideal world every woman should be as fortunate. This is not an ideal world and people find themselves in traumatic situations with horrific decisions to make. None of us know how we would react in these circumstances. Tomorrow we vote to give women choices. Their body, their choice - simple as that.
A foetus inside any woman is the concern of her, her partner and her doctor, it is no-one else's concern,
I believe this is where the NO campaign has failed to show real compassion and empathy. They are not the guardians of the wombs of the nation. Each individual woman is the guardian of her own womb. Her body, her choice.
I will be voting YES tomorrow and hope that my young nieces/friends/future grand daughters will be secure knowing that this nation will support them.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:27PM

tigger123 wrote: »

This referendum came from a grass roots campaign - there is literally no better example out there of what can be done when people stop complaining about something, and start lobbying and marching about it.

If you feel that the issue of men's rights needs similar attention, you should start a similart campaign.

The Taoiseach himself said today that political system didn't want to grab the nettle on abortion, but were forced into it by the pressure from below.

You mean the liberal meedja didnt have a hand.

You dont think leo is hedging his bets. Hes kept a relatively low profile - itll be Simon who'll take most of the hit of No. Still a bit of distance is no harm for him

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Comments