The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Berserker · 24-05-2018 07:53PM

What the record turn out for a referendum in the RoI? Could it be broken tomorrow?

dense · 24-05-2018 07:53PM

Calina wrote: »

Those are not spurious reasons. You have no idea of the power of shame and economic absolutely is not trivial in a country with a basket case accomodation market.

Two good reasons to take contraception very seriously.

Paranoid Bob · 24-05-2018 07:53PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

How would you possibly enforce that? Have you actually thought about your suggestion??

Respectfully; it does not matter how it can be enforced. If there is a wording for legislation that can enforce exactly those conditions; great!
In any case, the first step is to remove the 8th.

The only way to pass any legislation on this is first to remove the 8th.

Macha · 24-05-2018 07:54PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

A lot of the reasons are spurious such as not wanting to bring shame to a family. A lot of the decisions are rushed with no alternatives offered. A lot of reasons are economic.

Well, guess who we can blame for the shame and secrecy around children born out of wedlock? My father was born into a Mother and Baby home after his mother became pregnant from a rape so our family knows ALL about it.

As for being rushed with no alternatives, I imagine that knowing you have to organise a trip to the UK would add panic upon panic. Here, you would have a 72 hour waiting period to think over your options. I couldn't agree more that there should be alternatives offered but as someone living and accessing healthcare in Belgium, I would not hold my breathe for proper healthcare and social support services to appear in Ireland. It is diabolical.

Like I said, you may not agree with all the reasons but unless you're there with a pen ready to sign adoption papers, I'd suggest leaving it up to the family and woman affected.

You have conveniently ignored all the so-called 'valid' reasons I listed above but Jesus, it's like having the Saudi Vice Police squad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN-PBlV0m4

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 07:54PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Another misrepresentation.
A large number of No voters, perhaps the majority would like a referendum with removes the unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks clause, but instead deals with unfortunate cases of FFA, rape etc which themselves represent a small minority of pregnancies.
I don't think I can be any clearer.
The misrepresentations by the Yes side need to stop.

Actually, I don’t think I could be any clearer. What I said is 100% what you’re voting on tomorrow. The legislation you are seeing is PROPOSED legislation that will be debated upon IF the 8th is repealed.

You really, sincerely need to educate yourself before you run around shouting about misrepresentation.

Shenshen · 24-05-2018 07:54PM

dense wrote: »

Yes, and having an abortion will add to the trauma they've already experienced.

On rape, what are the known stats of victims becoming pregnant?

Is there any data on the use of the morning after pill?

Did I miss something here? Did anyone suggest to force anyone to have an abortion?
I understood it would be the woman's choice. Whichever way she decides to try and lessen the trauma,

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 07:54PM

gmisk wrote: »

I see the orange order have called for a no vote zzzz

what would you expect from such a backward lot

dense · 24-05-2018 07:54PM

murpho999 wrote: »

What committee?

The tablets already exist but are not legal here.

They are very cheap generic drugs.

Also why do they "No" side keep saying "On Demand" abortions like it's Netflix.

No woman will "Demand" an abortion, she will go to a doctor and seek the medical advice and care needed to suit her needs at a very difficult time.

"No" side keep trying to make out that it's a trivial decision when it's not at all.

Does Abortion on Request fit easier with you?

Conservatory · 24-05-2018 07:55PM

murpho999 wrote: »

Do you realise that people who don't want an abortion simply won't get one?

Also, you cannot introduce legislation just for rape victims as it's impossible to prove and adds more stress to the victim.

Thankfully I feel your viewpoint in the minority and you'll be very disappointed with the result on Saturday.

But again I believe in compassionate abortions but you are telling me if a person doesn’t want an abortion they won’t get one. I believe there is two people involved and one of them will never get to be born if on demand abortions come in even if they don’t want an abortion.

It was a terrible referendum with all the wrong options. It pretty much says do you want us to fix this issue if you do you will have to just trust us and if you don’t you must be some priest groupey.

I don’t feel great about it and do sympathize with people in the middle needing the medicine but it needs to be safeguarded.

I hand on heart would vote yes with a proper vote.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 07:56PM

murpho999 wrote: »

There won't be any medical procedures. Just medical ones.

Two tablets prescribed by a GP.

First taken at the GP and second a couple of days later at home. That's it.

40% of abortions in England and Wales are surgical, and these can and will happen here too - they are necessary in some cases. In fact, in nearly half of cases in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

"Abortion at a record high" - so much for it decreasing when it's freely available!!

NIMAN · 24-05-2018 07:56PM

What do people think is the chance that if Yes wins, abortion will be used as contraception by some people?

I would guess very small numbers, but I was reading a piece online last night from Irish women in the UK arguing both sides, one worked in the NHS and said she knew of one woman who has had 8 abortions.

I know numpties like her are the extreme examples, but I'm sure there will be enough stupid ones who simply don't take contraception seriously enough, knowing they have an escape route should they get pregnant.

Esperanza12 · 24-05-2018 07:56PM

Totally agree with djPSB. The proposed unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks is a major concern to No voters. Many (supposedly informed) Yes voters I’ve spoken to don’t even seem to know about it - the proposed legislation wasn’t mentioned in the Referendum Commission’s leaflet - what a massive waste of taxpayers’ money that was.
The government/citizens’ assembly explanation that unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks makes provision for rape victims is a complete copout. Hey, we’ve got the answer to a difficult moral question: Let’s just remove all rights to life from all unborn children. There are surely other ways to address exceptional cases. Since the Government “trusts women” so much, why not ask them to sign a police statement to report a rape and then use that as grounds for an exceptional termination of pregnancy?

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 07:57PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

40% of abortions in England and Wales are surgical, and these can and will happen here too - they are necessary in some cases. In fact, in nearly half of cases in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

they allow abortions much later than is proposed here. Up to 12 weeks a surgical abortion is not required.

dense · 24-05-2018 07:58PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Did I miss something here? Did anyone suggest to force anyone to have an abortion?
I understood it would be the woman's choice. Whichever way she decides to try and lessen the trauma,

But what are the stats?

I've yet to hear them being cited by those using rape as a reason to introduce Abortion on Request in this campaign.

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 07:58PM

dense wrote: »

Does Abortion on Request fit easier with you?

Just the right of choice will be fine.

No need to try to dramatise it as the "No" campaign have done.

No other medical treatment is called " xxxx on demand" so abortion should be no diffferent.

Overheal · 24-05-2018 07:58PM

dense wrote: »

Does Abortion on Request fit easier with you?

You do realize that doctors have the right of refusal still yes? They are not legally forced to provide abortions. They can simply say “sorry, I’m not comfortable doing this” and refer you somewhere else. Especially if you don’t supply a reason to them why you want one.

Abortion on Demand is a load of sh*t that implies that doctors have no choice of their own.

retro:electro · 24-05-2018 07:58PM

It feels like the night before an exam. I feel like I should be revising or something. I have that nervous energy feeling.

gctest50 · 24-05-2018 07:59PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

40% of abortions in England and Wales are surgical, and these can and will happen here too - they are necessary in some cases. In fact, in nearly half of cases in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

"Abortion at a record high" - so much for it decreasing when it's freely available!!

This isn't the UK though

The Netherlands has among the lowest rate

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 07:59PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Actually, I don’t think I could be any clearer. What I said is 100% what you’re voting on tomorrow. The legislation you are seeing is PROPOSED legislation that will be debated upon IF the 8th is repealed.

You really, sincerely need to educate yourself before you run around shouting about misrepresentation.

Do you seriously believe that the proposed legislation is not what's going to be implemented, barring a number of minor potential tweaks?! I really hope you don't!

namloc1980 · 24-05-2018 07:59PM

Conservatory wrote: »

But again I believe in compassionate abortions but you are telling me if a person doesn’t want an abortion they won’t get one. I believe there is two people involved and one of them will never get to be born if on demand abortions come in even if they don’t want an abortion.

It was a terrible referendum with all the wrong options. It pretty much says do you want us to fix this issue if you do you will have to just trust us and if you don’t you must be some priest groupey.

I don’t feel great about it and do sympathize with people in the middle needing the medicine but it needs to be safeguarded.

I hand on heart would vote yes with a proper vote.

This is a proper vote. The first step to deal with the hard cases you have mentioned is by getting rid of the 8th amendment. That's what you have the chance to do tomorrow. The future legislation is yet to happen. You can lobby for the shape of that however you like.

To be clear, you are NOT voting for abortion on demand tomorrow.

Itssoeasy · 24-05-2018 08:00PM

NIMAN wrote: »

I take it that should Yes win tomorrow, then abortions will be a fast-tracked procedure on the health service? There won't be the usual waiting time that people in the health service usually experience.

Say a woman goes to her GP and is 9 weeks pregnant and says she won't be able to cope with the child. This obviously means that the HSE/GP etc only have 3 weeks to get everything sorted out.

Is it a procedure that will be able to be done in a GP surgery, or will it require a hospital visit?

If it's a yes vote tomorrow nothing will happen straight away as by repealing the 8th Amendment if that's what happens, then we are giving the Oireachtas the power to legislate for terminations. The draft bill will still have to through both houses of the Oireachtas and if it's passed it may have several amendments to it. Also the Dail goes on holidays for the alot of summer. This potential legislation

It's proposed to be a GP led service which will involve a 72 waiting period once a women presents for an Abortion and the her options will be discussed with her.

Also, NIMAN this isn't against you but can certain posters please stop attacking the health service ? Yes there are issues in it and yes it's not perfect, but the healthcare professionals and other supporting staff work bloody hard and they aren't failing and don't go around intending to "botch" things. :mad:

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 08:00PM

gctest50 wrote: »

This isn't the UK though

No, but how similar are we to the UK?

NuMarvel · 24-05-2018 08:00PM

Conservatory wrote: »

Seriously? There is private sti clinics.

Yes, seriously. Scotland has over double the number of abortions we're estimated to have and they don't have a private, for profit, clinic. The closest they have is a charity that's set up a single clinic, and that's NHS funded anyway. Any private abortions take place in existing private facilities.

What's more, our service delivery model will be different because ours will be primary-care led and the majority of abortions won't require visits to hospitals or specialist clinics.

NIMAN wrote: »

I take it that should Yes win tomorrow, then abortions will be a fast-tracked procedure on the health service? There won't be the usual waiting time that people in the health service usually experience.

Say a woman goes to her GP and is 9 weeks pregnant and says she won't be able to cope with the child. This obviously means that the HSE/GP etc only have 3 weeks to get everything sorted out.

Is it a procedure that will be able to be done in a GP surgery, or will it require a hospital visit?

The majority of terminations will be medical, where a woman takes some pills. There's no actual procedure to be carried out, so it can happen at home. And to refer back to Scotland, they recently changed their laws to allow this.

Any abortions that happen in hospital will be because it meets one of the post-12 weeks grounds of risk to health, life, or of FFA, or because the pills aren't a viable option in the woman's particular circumstances (e.g existing health issues).

Shenshen · 24-05-2018 08:01PM

dense wrote: »

But what are the stats?

I've yet to hear them being cited by those using rape as a reason to introduce Abortion on Request in this campaign.

I don't have any - but why would they matter?
Are you saying you'd be in favour of making legal provisions for abortion in case of rape if they are above a certain number, but not below?

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 08:01PM

Esperanza12 wrote: »

Totally agree with djPSB. The proposed unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks is a major concern to No voters. Many (supposedly informed) Yes voters I’ve spoken to don’t even seem to know about it - the proposed legislation wasn’t mentioned in the Referendum Commission’s leaflet - what a massive waste of taxpayers’ money that was.
The government/citizens’ assembly explanation that unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks makes provision for rape victims is a complete copout. Hey, we’ve got the answer to a difficult moral question: Let’s just remove all rights to life from all unborn children. There are surely other ways to address exceptional cases. Since the Government “trusts women” so much, why not ask them to sign a police statement to report a rape and then use that as grounds for an exceptional termination of pregnancy?

The referendum is not about 12 weeks or not and that's why it was not in any Referendum Comission's leaflets as it's not what the referendum is about.

The referendum will repeal the 8th and clear the way for the government to legislate.

Future legislation is nothing to do with the referendum commission so no taxpayers' money has been wasted.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 08:03PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that the proposed legislation is not what's going to be implemented, barring a number of minor potential tweaks?! I really hope you don't!

It may well be the exact legislation that is brought in, and until someone can tell me a better way to legislate for certain hard cases without an unrestricted widow then that legislation is the best course of action.

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 08:03PM

NIMAN wrote: »

I take it that should Yes win tomorrow, then abortions will be a fast-tracked procedure on the health service? There won't be the usual waiting time that people in the health service usually experience.

Say a woman goes to her GP and is 9 weeks pregnant and says she won't be able to cope with the child. This obviously means that the HSE/GP etc only have 3 weeks to get everything sorted out.

Is it a procedure that will be able to be done in a GP surgery, or will it require a hospital visit?

They are promoting a GP led service involving medical not surgical abortions.

Two pills arranged by the GP so no pressure on HSE.

9 weeks will be will on time to arrange treatment.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 08:03PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they allow abortions much later than is proposed here. Up to 12 weeks a surgical abortion is not required.

They will be allowed later than 12 weeks here too, and I'd need you to provide a source for that as everyone is different and it really depends on the woman and potential medical conditions, etc. Most will be medical but definitely not all.

Conservatory · 24-05-2018 08:04PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

This is a proper vote. The first step to deal with the hard cases you have mentioned is by getting rid of the 8th amendment. That's what you have the chance to do tomorrow. The future legislation is yet to happen. You can lobby for the shape of that however you like.

To be clear, you are NOT voting for abortion on demand tomorrow.

But you are opening the door to it.

My lobbying won’t be heard over what the rich and powerful decide is the best course of action with abortions once the up in the air referendum is passed.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 08:04PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

It may well be the exact legislation that is brought in, and until someone can tell me a better way to legislate for certain hard cases without an unrestricted widow then that legislation is the best course of action.

Allowing it for hard cases within that restricted window?

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Comments