The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Conservatory

I just can’t trust this populist spin government to do the right thing if they are given the power to change this. It’s a terrible situation it truly is.
Will we get a ffa abortion or a demand abortion referendum or will we get told to take what suits them?

I think businessmen may decide the outcome of the committee if they think there is profit in a certain outcome.

If we could even have a repeal the 8th with a further referendum option on the form I’d vote yes but not this way I can’t.

BarryD2

Conservatory wrote: »

I just can’t trust this populist spin government to do the right thing if they are given the power to change this. It’s a terrible situation it truly is.
Will we get a ffa abortion or a demand abortion referendum or will we get told to take what suits them?

I think businessmen may decide the outcome of the committee if they think there is profit in a certain outcome.

If we could even have a repeal the 8th with a further referendum option on the form I’d vote yes but not this way I can’t.

That's a cop out and you know it!

But can you live with it?

Try_harder

Vegans for Yes surely?

Akrasia

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Knew someone would say that! Was even going to refer to the author. Look forward to hearing what you disagree with and why. The points being made would have merit even if it were someone else outlining them.

You said that laws create culture. I remember when Suicide was illegal in Ireland before 1993. It didn't stop people from killing themselves, it just made it so much harder for them to get help and access services, and when people did kill themselves, it was seen as shameful and the family often felt they had to lie and cover it up

It took a while to get the services in place and to change the mindset, but Ireland's suicide rate has been declining since 2000 (apart from some spikes following the economic collapse) It's still a serious problem, but at least it's not something hidden and buried and the memories of people who died by suicide are not tarnished like they were before.

If Abortion is legalised in Ireland, instead of sweeping it under the rug like we have been doing for generations, we will have a chance to step up, provide the services to allow women and their partners to make the best decisions according to their own unique circumstances. I think that it will be the catalyst for improving family planning services to cut down on the number of crisis pregnancies that occur, and to make access to family planning services and abortion safer and take away the shame attached to 'sneaking' off to england on 'holiday' and coming home and trying to act as if nothing happened.

spookwoman

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

On the way home, I saw a man placing posters in the proximity of the local polling station. We had a civil chat about the legality of their location in accordance with the Electoral Act 2001, which states that all material less than 50 meters should be removed 30 mins before opening of polling. I was asking him if he was aware they had to be removed before polling. We disagreed on the proximity. He said it was greater than 50 meters from the entrance but I believe it's less than 50 meters.

Does anyone know if it's 50 meters from the entrance used by voters to enter the building, any entrance to the building or the actual building itself? I still believe it was less than 50 meters from the main entrance anyway.

I don't usually get so hung up on pedantic things like this! In such an important referendum, it is just wrong that volunteers for any side to have blatent disregard for such basics.


Anyone have a trundle wheel?!

50 Meters entrance https://www.rte.ie/news/newslens/2018/0524/965515-six-things-to-know-polling-day/

djPSB

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

However, there is something in the proposed bill that does not quite sit right with me. I don't think it is correct to be aborting perfectly healthy babies up to 12 weeks. It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby.

Yes people say sure 'can't women just go to England anyways'. That's not a valid reason to support the Bill and doesn't make it morally correct just because it's in place in the UK.

It's an all or nothing Bill that is not morally correct or something I can say I fully support. It should have been drafted to protect women's right in the so called hard cases but unfortunately it's gone beyond that and taken from the rights of perfectly healthy babies.

Difficult vote.

Cupcake_Crisis

Akrasia wrote: »

it would be a very very difficult thing to prove that
1. all these people were not ordinarily resident in Ireland on 1 September 2017 or that they haven't been living abroad for more than 18 months.
2. That all of these people did actually vote
3. That they all voted yes
4. That there wasn't also an influx of irish citizens who came home to vote and voted no.

Given that the pro life side are encouraging people to come home to vote too, the courts would likely conclude that there isn't enough evidence that there was a large number of ineligible votes cast and that they didn't balance each other out.

There’s also a HometovoteNo page so I’m sure there’s people coming home to vote no too. Absolutely no way to know who voted what do they could be doing themselves out of votes by contesting it

ohnonotgmail

Try_harder wrote: »

The Orange Order calls for a No... surprising...

And Nick Griffin- presumably just for white women

Gfriffin is probably coming from the white genocide angle

Macha

djPSB wrote: »

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

However, there is something in the proposed bill that does not quite sit right with me. I don't think it is correct to be aborting perfectly healthy babies up to 12 weeks. It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby.

Yes people say sure 'can't women just go to England anyways'. That's not a valid reason to support the Bill and doesn't make it morally correct just because it's in place in the UK.

It's an all or nothing Bill that is not morally correct or something I can say I fully support. It should have been drafted to protect women's right in the so called hard cases but unfortunately it's gone beyond that and taken from the rights of perfectly healthy babies.

Difficult vote.

The 12 week limit is there specifically to accommodate rape victims without re-traumatising them.

You didn't mention women's health. Is that not important too? I have the right to be alive but I also want to be healthy.

namloc1980

djPSB wrote: »

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

However, there is something in the proposed bill that does not quite sit right with me. I don't think it is correct to be aborting perfectly healthy babies up to 12 weeks. It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby.

Yes people say sure 'can't women just go to England anyways'. That's not a valid reason to support the Bill and doesn't make it morally correct just because it's in place in the UK.

It's an all or nothing Bill that is not morally correct or something I can say I fully support. It should have been drafted to protect women's right in the so called hard cases but unfortunately it's gone beyond that and taken from the rights of perfectly healthy babies.

Difficult vote.

To make it easier, you are not voting on any Bill other than the 35th amendment bill. Secondly, the 8th has to be removed to even legislate for the hard cases. Given your stance, a yes vote would be the logical conclusion surely.

Shenshen

djPSB wrote: »

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

However, there is something in the proposed bill that does not quite sit right with me. I don't think it is correct to be aborting perfectly healthy babies up to 12 weeks. It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby.

Yes people say sure 'can't women just go to England anyways'. That's not a valid reason to support the Bill and doesn't make it morally correct just because it's in place in the UK.

It's an all or nothing Bill that is not morally correct or something I can say I fully support. It should have been drafted to protect women's right in the so called hard cases but unfortunately it's gone beyond that and taken from the rights of perfectly healthy babies.

Difficult vote.

Honest question : How would you allow for abortions in cases of rape?
Unless you wanted to insist on a conviction before you'd allow it - in which case you could easily be looking at a 3-year-old child - you have to have a provision in place whereby an abortion is possible without the rape having been legally confirmed.
I understand that this is why the 12 week option has been introduced to the discussion.

murpho999

You do realise that attorney generals and citizen assemblies have said that this cannot happen.

The 8th has to be repealed for any change.

You are not acually for voting for abortion tomorrow but for repeal of the 8th but people just don't get this.

Shurimgreat

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

With all due respect, that’s not what you’re voting no to tomorrow. When you vote no you’ll be saying that you want absolutely no debate on the proposed legislation and to leave the 8th untouched. Meaning that those cases you say are acceptable will stay in the exact same situation they are currently in. There will be no scope for change if it’s a no vote tomorrow.

Another misrepresentation.
A large number of No voters, perhaps the majority would like a referendum with removes the unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks clause, but instead deals with unfortunate cases of FFA, rape etc which themselves represent a small minority of pregnancies.
I don't think I can be any clearer.
The misrepresentations by the Yes side need to stop.

Shenshen

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Another misrepresentation.
A large number of No voters, perhaps the majority would like a referendum with removes the unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks clause, but instead deals with unfortunate cases of FFA, rape etc which themselves represent a small minority of pregnancies.
I don't think I can be any clearer.
The misrepresentations by the Yes side need to stop.

Please have a read up on what you get to vote on tomorrow.
You are NOT being asked to vote on any clause involving anything about unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

retro:electro

djPSB wrote: »

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

Then if you want to help these people you need to vote Yes, because the only person who benefits from our current system is Michael O Leary.

djPSB wrote: »

It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby

For Jaysus. There’ll be no killing of 12 week old babies. If you mean unrestricted access up to 12 weeks, this is to accommodate rape victims so they don’t have to go through the added trauma of disclosing what happened to them when they’re not ready.

_Dara_

djPSB wrote: »

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

However, there is something in the proposed bill that does not quite sit right with me. I don't think it is correct to be aborting perfectly healthy babies up to 12 weeks. It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby.

Yes people say sure 'can't women just go to England anyways'. That's not a valid reason to support the Bill and doesn't make it morally correct just because it's in place in the UK.

It's an all or nothing Bill that is not morally correct or something I can say I fully support. It should have been drafted to protect women's right in the so called hard cases but unfortunately it's gone beyond that and taken from the rights of perfectly healthy babies.

Difficult vote.

Not all cases. Whilst some cancers can be treated during pregnancy, others can’t. Any cancer can metastasise and therefore all cancers are a significant threat to life. But not an immediate threat. So, no termination.

And ask yourself honestly how it’s possible to legislate for rape.

Macha

This is the part of the Oireachtas report on the 8th amendment. You can read the whole thing but this is from page 9:

The Committee also heard evidence in relation to the underreporting of rape and sexual offences to An Garda
Síochána and the authorities generally in Ireland. The Committee understands why some women find it difficult
or impossible to report rape or sexual assault and is accordingly of the opinion that it would be unreasonable to
insist on reporting as a precondition for exercising any right to terminate a pregnancy that has resulted from rape
or sexual assault.

The Committee is further of the view that where a woman is concerned that she may be pregnant as a result
of a rape or sexual assault, she should have immediate access to appropriate services.

In view of the complexities inherent in legislating for the termination of pregnancy for reasons of rape or other
sexual assault, the Committee is of the opinion that it would be more appropriate to deal with this issue by
permitting termination of pregnancy with no restriction as to reason provided that it is availed of through a
GP-led service delivered in a clinical context as determined by law and licencing practice in Ireland with a
gestational limit of 12 weeks.

ohnonotgmail

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Another misrepresentation.
A large number of No voters, perhaps the majority would like a referendum with removes the unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks clause, but instead deals with unfortunate cases of FFA, rape etc which themselves represent a small minority of pregnancies.
I don't think I can be any clearer.
The misrepresentations by the Yes side need to stop.

i asked you this earlier but you ignored me. what do think is acceptable collateral damage in the event the amendment isn't passed? How many women with FFA, women who have been raped, do you consider amounts to an acceptable level of suffering just to ensure that we dont get abortion without restriction up to 12 weeks?

Shurimgreat

Akrasia wrote: »

You said that laws create culture. I remember when Suicide was illegal in Ireland before 1993. It didn't stop people from killing themselves, it just made it so much harder for them to get help and access services, and when people did kill themselves, it was seen as shameful and the family often felt they had to lie and cover it up

It took a while to get the services in place and to change the mindset, but Ireland's suicide rate has been declining since 2000 (apart from some spikes following the economic collapse) It's still a serious problem, but at least it's not something hidden and buried and the memories of people who died by suicide are not tarnished like they were before.

If Abortion is legalised in Ireland, instead of sweeping it under the rug like we have been doing for generations, we will have a chance to step up, provide the services to allow women and their partners to make the best decisions according to their own unique circumstances. I think that it will be the catalyst for improving family planning services to cut down on the number of crisis pregnancies that occur, and to make access to family planning services and abortion safer and take away the shame attached to 'sneaking' off to england on 'holiday' and coming home and trying to act as if nothing happened.

Our health services are poor at the moment. If recent history is anything to go by many abortions here will be botched and poorly carried out. Our public health system is badly stretched as is. Very few of our healthcare professionals are trained in abortion services.

NuMarvel

djPSB wrote: »

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

However, there is something in the proposed bill that does not quite sit right with me. I don't think it is correct to be aborting perfectly healthy babies up to 12 weeks. It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby.

Yes people say sure 'can't women just go to England anyways'. That's not a valid reason to support the Bill and doesn't make it morally correct just because it's in place in the UK.

It's an all or nothing Bill that is not morally correct or something I can say I fully support. It should have been drafted to protect women's right in the so called hard cases but unfortunately it's gone beyond that and taken from the rights of perfectly healthy babies.

Difficult vote.

Bear in mind that if the government was going to legislate for just those types of cases, they'd still have to have the referendum we're having tomorrow. It still requires removing the 8th from the Constitution in the first place; that's the starting point for any change.

The vote tomorrow is ultimately what the constitution says, not the legislation. And the reality is that it isn't possible to properly provide for the exceptional cases in the constitution.

igCorcaigh

djPSB wrote: »

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

However, there is something in the proposed bill that does not quite sit right with me. I don't think it is correct to be aborting perfectly healthy babies up to 12 weeks. It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby.

Yes people say sure 'can't women just go to England anyways'. That's not a valid reason to support the Bill and doesn't make it morally correct just because it's in place in the UK.

It's an all or nothing Bill that is not morally correct or something I can say I fully support. It should have been drafted to protect women's right in the so called hard cases but unfortunately it's gone beyond that and taken from the rights of perfectly healthy babies.

Difficult vote.

It is a difficult and complex issue.

If you want to allow people to terminate their pregnancy after experiencing a rape, then repealing the 8th is the only way.
It is impractical and unethical to ask the rape victim to somehow prove they were raped IMO.

By voting No tomorrow, these people will have to travel to UK for termination rather than availing of the service here.
Repealing the 8th will also allow other women to avail of abortion services, if that is their wish.

Either way you cut it, there is no ideal moral outcome. That is the nature of crisis pregnancy.

I am voting Yes to allow for safe and legal terminations in Ireland, for those women who decide it is necessary for them.

Dressing gown

djPSB wrote: »

Still undecided.

Thought process. 100% agree with termination in situations where there is any threat to a woman's life. I feel the 2013 Protection of Life during Pregnancy allows for termination in such cases.

Also 100% agree with termination in fatal fetal abnormalities where there is no chance of a baby surviving.

100% agree with terminations in instances of rape.

So for the so called hard cases, abortion must be an option.

However, there is something in the proposed bill that does not quite sit right with me. I don't think it is correct to be aborting perfectly healthy babies up to 12 weeks. It's just something that I don't feel is morally right, killing a healthy 12 week old baby.

Yes people say sure 'can't women just go to England anyways'. That's not a valid reason to support the Bill and doesn't make it morally correct just because it's in place in the UK.

It's an all or nothing Bill that is not morally correct or something I can say I fully support. It should have been drafted to protect women's right in the so called hard cases but unfortunately it's gone beyond that and taken from the rights of perfectly healthy babies.

Difficult vote.

Yep and there are lots like you. I wasn’t at the Oireachtas and I haven’t read the report. If you are so torn I would suggest that you do as the people attending that are far better informed than most of us on here.

What I will say is that I do believe that the availability of pills on the internet is a game changer. If this referendum has done nothing it has educated society that they are available, and they are cheap. We are already seeing a shift in numbers showing a decline in trips to the UK but instead (I believe) pills bought online. To me the floodgates have been opened. With or without a yes vote I think the rate of abortion will go up just owing to this factor.

Edited to add: I think the Oireachtas took the availability of pills into account-they work up to 12 weeks. It was also mentioned that rape victims take a bit of time to process what has happened from being traumatised, they also looked at best practice in other countries and that’s where the 12 weeks came from-it enables Ireland to take ownership of the majority of abortion cases.

A woman determined to have an abortion will have one regardless of anyone else’s opinions on the matter. We have a choice to let her do it safely or not. It is your conscience you have to live with and you may not agree with abortion but it is for you to weigh up which you think the right thing to do is.

Conservatory

BarryD2 wrote: »

That's a cop out and you know it!

But can you live with it?

Can you honestly (now honestly)tell me that if a well known businessman bought up a load of distressed properties and hired in a load of doctors on long term contracts he couldn’t have this government pass whatever abortion laws he wanted?
While they passed the on demand abortion law they’d come up with another popular referendum to have about something else to keep the Iona’s and career feminists busy.

murpho999

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Another misrepresentation.
A large number of No voters, perhaps the majority would like a referendum with removes the unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks clause, but instead deals with unfortunate cases of FFA, rape etc which themselves represent a small minority of pregnancies.
I don't think I can be any clearer.
The misrepresentations by the Yes side need to stop.

The referendum is about the 8th and its removal from the constitution.

Nothing more and nothing less.

After the yes vote (which is most likely) the goverenment will then be a in a position to legislate for abortion and the 12 week limit is proposed by the current government.

That can be changed in future by legislation not a referendum.

You really need to read up on what you're voting for tomorrow.

Also, why is 12 weeks ok in other countries and their countries function fine? Why would it be any different here?

Shenshen

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Our health services are poor at the moment. If recent history is anything to go by many abortions here will be botched and poorly carried out. Our public health system is badly stretched as is. Very few of our healthcare professionals are trained in abortion services.

So you advocate to vote "No" because Britain has the better health service?

Just when I thought I had heard the most cynical thing the No side can come up with...

Shurimgreat

_Dara_ wrote: »

Not all cases. Whilst some cancers can be treated during pregnancy, others can’t. Any cancer can metastasise and therefore all cancers are a significant threat to life. But not an immediate threat. So, no termination.

And ask yourself honestly how it’s possible to legislate for rape.

Rape victims represent a tiny proportion of overall pregnancies in this country. There are over 60,000 pregnancies in Ireland every year. The number of pregnant rape victims would be tiny in comparison.

Introducing potentially unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks for every single unborn baby to deal with a tiny number of pregnant rape victims is not the solution. Abortion for rape victims by all means but for healthy babies is an extreme step.

ohnonotgmail

Conservatory wrote: »

Can you honestly (now honestly)tell me that if a well known businessman bought up a load of distressed properties and hired in a load of doctors on long term contracts he couldn’t have this government pass whatever abortion laws he wanted?
While they passed the on demand abortion law they’d come up with another popular referendum to have about something else to keep the Iona’s and career feminists busy.

There is nowhere near enough demand to support a private abortion clinic.

ohnonotgmail

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Our health services are poor at the moment. If recent history is anything to go by many abortions here will be botched and poorly carried out. Our public health system is badly stretched as is. Very few of our healthcare professionals are trained in abortion services.

how exactly do you botch the taking of 2 pills?

ohnonotgmail

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Rape victims represent a tiny proportion of overall pregnancies in this country. There are something like 50,000 pregnancies in Ireland every year. The number of pregnant rape victims would be tiny in comparison.

so they are acceptable collateral damage then?

namloc1980

Incredible how many people there are who don't know what they are actually being asked to vote on tomorrow?