The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 06:50PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Opinion piece by Breda O'Brien nuff said :rolleyes:

Knew someone would say that! Was even going to refer to the author. Look forward to hearing what you disagree with and why. The points being made would have merit even if it were someone else outlining them.

namloc1980 · 24-05-2018 06:51PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

My feeling is that countries that legislate for abortion on demand (which is what it is, let's face facts - anyone can have one up to 12 weeks for any reason), is that it helps create a culture of abortion. I think that's what undecided and no voters are understandably concerned about.

And yes it's already happening, but voting for it is another matter entirely. How can you vote for something you disagree with? Laws change culture, that's a fact. I think of that woman on TV3 earlier in the week saying that she has 20 friends who have had abortions...20!! That is messed up.

Only up until pretty recently, people thought nothing of getting into their cars drunk and driving home. Pub car parks were as full as you like at the weekends. Now, it's clearly so different - the car parks are a lot emptier (and no, not just because fewer people are going to pubs!), and there are way fewer drink drivers and road casualties are a fraction of what they once were.

It's now socially unacceptable to drink and drive, because laws were passed, there was education and awareness campaigns and behaviour changed.

Same with abortion - if it's culturally acceptable the rates will go up. Look at Britain.

This article sums it up for me right now: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-if-you-vote-for-choice-you-are-facilitating-abortions-1.3505850?__vfz=c_pages%3D11000002670848

"But it's happening anyway" - just because something is happening anyway, doesn't make it right or something you should vote for.

Right?! Undecided but leaning towards no.

You're not voting for abortion. There's no such thing as a "culture of abortion".

Try_harder · 24-05-2018 06:51PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Knew someone would say that! Was even going to refer to the author. Look forward to hearing what you disagree with and why. The points being made would have merit even if it were someone else outlining them.

Spin with a caring mask.

Iona have done nothing to help pregnant women in the past and wont start if the referendum is defeated. Beware the wolf in sheeps clothing

OldMrBrennan83 · 24-05-2018 06:52PM

This post has been deleted.

Spanish Eyes · 24-05-2018 06:52PM

Anyway, get off yer Twitters, FB and whatever, and get the hell to the polling station.

Every vote counts no matter what side you are on. Fence sitting is not good on this one.

Try_harder · 24-05-2018 06:53PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Anyway, get off yer Twitters, FB and whatever, and get the hell to the polling station.

Every vote counts no matter what side you are on. Fence sitting is not good on this one.

Voting is from 7am TOMORROW

Bunny Colvin · 24-05-2018 06:53PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Just as an aside, MT was mentioned in my kid's school a couple of months ago. They were specifically told by the teacher that if they were searching for MT on the internet, they were to search for "Mother Teresa FOR KIDS"

Just in case the truth, and Hitchens' magnificent J'Accuse against her, were to be found! :cool:

Hell's Angel. Its a pity there isn't a heaven for Hitchens' to go to.

Akrasia · 24-05-2018 06:54PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

It's not porkies to say that if the poll is very tight <10k home to vote will be the grounds for a challenge. And it will be successful thanks to enough clowns looking for Twitter and Facebook likes.

The integrity of the poll is more important than the result.

it would be a very very difficult thing to prove that
1. all these people were not ordinarily resident in Ireland on 1 September 2017 or that they haven't been living abroad for more than 18 months.
2. That all of these people did actually vote
3. That they all voted yes
4. That there wasn't also an influx of irish citizens who came home to vote and voted no.

Given that the pro life side are encouraging people to come home to vote too, the courts would likely conclude that there isn't enough evidence that there was a large number of ineligible votes cast and that they didn't balance each other out.

Trasna1 · 24-05-2018 06:54PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

You're not voting for abortion. There's no such thing as a "culture of abortion".

If rape culture exists then surely you could make the same argument for "abortion culture" on the same lines?

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 06:55PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

You're not voting for abortion. There's no such thing as a "culture of abortion".

There's a culture where it is more acceptable, and one where it's less acceptable. Laws and attitudes shape our culture, that applies to lots of things so why should this be any different.

Zulu · 24-05-2018 06:55PM

Just got left leaflet in the door. Is that allowed?

Berserker · 24-05-2018 06:55PM

Is canvassing still allowed? We've have three pieces of literature put into our letterbox today. Last one was five minutes ago.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 06:56PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

If rape culture exists then surely you could make the same argument for "abortion culture" on the same lines?

Exactly, the more 'accepted' something is the more common and prevalent it becomes (in short).

Spanish Eyes · 24-05-2018 06:56PM

Just out of curiousity if anyone knows.....

IF the Yes side wins, will there be redundancies in the IONA Institute? Baptism is no longer going to be required for entry to Catholic schools, Divorce is established, SSM is here, and maybe the eighth will be repealed.

I'd be interested to know what their next crusade might be.

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 06:56PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Hmm, there shouldn’t be ads!

erica74 · 24-05-2018 06:57PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

My feeling is that countries that legislate for abortion on demand (which is what it is, let's face facts - anyone can have one up to 12 weeks for any reason), is that it helps create a culture of abortion. I think that's what undecided and no voters are understandably concerned about.

What does that culture look like? How is it described?

Digital_Guy wrote: »

I think of that woman on TV3 earlier in the week saying that she has 20 friends who have had abortions...20!! That is messed up.

20 women who needed an abortion had one. Why is that messed up?

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Right?! Undecided but leaning towards no.

I mean you sure seem "undecided", there is nothing in your long post which suggests you're contemplating voting yes.

sonofenoch · 24-05-2018 06:57PM

YFlyer wrote: »

A friend of mine is voting no because he said George Soros is funding part of the Yes campaign.

I'd vote no simply because the Liberal Libtards say yes and that's all across the board ...the lunatics are taking over the asylum

Paranoid Bob · 24-05-2018 06:58PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Again like all the Yes side at this stage you fail to understand that the vast majority of No voters (A) have nothing to do with the Iona Institute and anyone who says otherwise is a liar and (B) want to legislate for the small number of cases such as FFA, rape, incest, etc but are not comfortable with abortion on demand to everyone up to 12 weeks including babies with no abnormalities or were not the result of rape or incest.

The only way to get that legislation passed is to remove the 8th first.
There is no way to get that legislation passed as long as the 8th is in place. People have tried. The 8th has been there for 35 years and the best we have been able to do in that time is nibble around the edges of the harm it is doing.

Pass this referendum; then pass that legislation you say you agree with.

namloc1980 · 24-05-2018 06:58PM

Zulu wrote: »

Just got left leaflet in the door. Is that allowed?

Berserker wrote: »

Is canvassing still allowed? We've have three pieces of literature put into our letterbox today. Last one was five minutes ago.

Why wouldn't it be allowed? AFAIK it's just a media broadcast ban.

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 06:58PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

If rape culture exists then surely you could make the same argument for "abortion culture" on the same lines?

Personally, I don’t believe a rape culture exists. That’s not widely accepted.

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 06:58PM

Berserker wrote: »

Is canvassing still allowed? We've have three pieces of literature put into our letterbox today. Last one was five minutes ago.

The 2pm moratorium is just for tv and radio.

Try_harder · 24-05-2018 06:59PM

Zulu wrote: »

Just got left leaflet in the door. Is that allowed?

Yes.

Try_harder · 24-05-2018 07:00PM

sonofenoch wrote: »

I'd vote no simply because the Liberal Libtards say yes and that's all across the board ...the lunatics are taking over the asylum

Gammons for No!

Hotblack Desiato · 24-05-2018 07:00PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

We have seen with the many recent scandals how many incompetent fools there are in Dail Eireann. It seems to go up with each passing election.

Some party hack decreed that the people
had lost the government's confidence
and could only regain it with redoubled effort.
If that is the case, would it not be simpler,
If the government simply dissolved the people
And elected another?

-- Bertolt Brecht 1898-1956

Shenshen · 24-05-2018 07:01PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

My feeling is that countries that legislate for abortion on demand (which is what it is, let's face facts - anyone can have one up to 12 weeks for any reason), is that it helps create a culture of abortion. I think that's what undecided and no voters are understandably concerned about.

And yes it's already happening, but voting for it is another matter entirely. How can you vote for something you disagree with? Laws change culture, that's a fact. I think of that woman on TV3 earlier in the week saying that she has 20 friends who have had abortions...20!! That is messed up.

Only up until pretty recently, people thought nothing of getting into their cars drunk and driving home. Pub car parks were as full as you like at the weekends. Now, it's clearly so different - the car parks are a lot emptier (and no, not just because fewer people are going to pubs!), and there are way fewer drink drivers and road casualties are a fraction of what they once were.

It's now socially unacceptable to drink and drive, because laws were passed, there was education and awareness campaigns and behaviour changed.

Same with abortion - if it's culturally acceptable the rates will go up. Look at Britain.

This article sums it up for me right now: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-if-you-vote-for-choice-you-are-facilitating-abortions-1.3505850?__vfz=c_pages%3D11000002670848

"But it's happening anyway" - just because something is happening anyway, doesn't make it right or something you should vote for.

Right?! Undecided but leaning towards no.

Assuming there is such a thing as "culture of abortion", I would assert it already exists in Ireland.
The way to challenge it would be to enforce the 8th by putting women who have been found to have used (illegal) abortion pills on trial and actually jailing them. It would mean prosecuting women who have had abortions outside this jurisdiction on their return here.
If you were really interested in actually stopping abortions, you would also have to go out and campaign to get the right to travel and the right to access information repealed.

Yet only the none bar the most foam-at-the-mouth No voters would even want to contemplate going there.

There is no support for stopping abortions from happening. There only seems to be support for a vague form of NIMBYism that has focused around the 8th amendment.

Try_harder · 24-05-2018 07:04PM

You couldnt without the 8th being amended

January · 24-05-2018 07:05PM

Nope. The 8th has to be repealed as it equates the right to life of the foetus as equal to the mother. That's why POLDPA was introduced because once the women is sick enough to be dying her life becomes more important but not until then.

angel eyes 2012 · 24-05-2018 07:10PM

On the way home, I saw a man placing posters in the proximity of the local polling station. We had a civil chat about the legality of their location in accordance with the Electoral Act 2001, which states that all material less than 50 meters should be removed 30 mins before opening of polling. I was asking him if he was aware they had to be removed before polling. We disagreed on the proximity. He said it was greater than 50 meters from the entrance but I believe it's less than 50 meters.

Does anyone know if it's 50 meters from the entrance used by voters to enter the building, any entrance to the building or the actual building itself? I still believe it was less than 50 meters from the main entrance anyway.

I don't usually get so hung up on pedantic things like this! In such an important referendum, it is just wrong that volunteers for any side to have blatent disregard for such basics.

Anyone have a trundle wheel?!

BarryD2 · 24-05-2018 07:11PM

schmittel wrote: »

I get that literally the vote is on the precise wording of the amendment - yes or no. But it is naive to believe that the vote is in no way an endorsement or rejection of the proposed legislation. The reason I am voting no is specifically to reject that, and one way or another my vote will be interpreted as such.

That seems overly pedantic, a sort of cutting off your nose to spite your face. But then I read you have skin in the game. I write too as a man, but as a father of two daughters in their early to mid twenties. They are the future of motherhood (hopefully!) in this country, if they wish and are lucky enough. Both are absolutely determined that Repeal of the 8th should take place and that their lives should not be potentially blighted or threatened. Who are I or you to deny them that?? Four votes here for Yes. Do your bit.

_Dara_ wrote: »

My very politically active father was all set to vote no. He told me earlier that he has been so disgusted by the no campaign that he is considering abstaining. I was pretty shocked!

A perfectly acceptable reaction. People should just abstain if they are uncomfortable voting either way.

spookwoman · 24-05-2018 07:14PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Knew someone would say that! Was even going to refer to the author. Look forward to hearing what you disagree with and why. The points being made would have merit even if it were someone else outlining them.

1 I don't have an irish times subscription so can't read it
2 Breda O'Brien of Gays should abstain from sex - like all unmarried couples
3 Breda O'Brien of "Do you think we should change the Constitution to allow grandmothers and their daughters to marry?"

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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