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The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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Comments

  • #4892
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    I and my 2 younger siblings would definitely not be here if contraception was available....sooo ban contraception :confused:

    Different situation - sperm have no constitutional rights. Otherwise we'd be banning masturbation!

    We are talking about a fertilized and growing foetus here with many hallmarks of a human being and are on the way to being born..


  • #4893
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,216 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    So constitutional right to life for the unborn is not removed for every single foetus with this referendum? Simple answer will do.

    Yes. Yes it is. It should never have been there in the first place. This is a legislative matter, for the Legislature.


  • #4894
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    So constitutional right to life for the unborn is not removed for every single foetus with this referendum?

    Yes, that is the point. We are back to the 1982 situation.

    Oh, except that the 8th forced us to legalize abortion in the PoLDPA since then. It was completely illegal before the 8th screw up.


  • #4895
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,167 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    And yet you were once in that state. How would you feel if your rights were stripped away at that point and it then became a lottery whether you were allowed live or not?

    i would feel nothing because there was no "me" to feel anything.


  • #4896
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Or equally Winston Churchill, Michael Collins, Mother Theresa, Gandhi, Mandela, etc etc.

    Mother Theresa could have been put in the other list. she was no saint


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  • #4897
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    And how precisely did the 8th save all these people who were born before the 8th was voted in, and in most cases not born in Ireland at all?

    I was responding to a post. Take it up with the original poster.


  • #4898
    storker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭storker


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    That doesn't help your case- the point you're willfully missing is that you can't miss what never was and talking about potential lost good while ignoring potential lost evil is the most asinine version of that dumb argument.

    Yep. And like friend or relatives who might have been aborted, we'll never know. It's not as if some kid, doing a project on Mother Theresa, is going to Google her and get an error message saying "Search subject was aborted and prevented from being born. Please try again using a different subject."



    _


  • #4899
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,533 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Quick question guys have ye seen many Repeal/LoveBoth stickers?
    I've seen several LoveBoth but hardly any Repeal stickers.(About two)


  • #4900
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    spookwoman wrote: »
    Mother Theresa could have been put in the other list. she was no saint

    My point was its idiotic to say abortion could have prevented certain people being born.


  • #4901
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    I and my 2 younger siblings would definitely not be here if contraception was available....sooo ban contraception :confused:

    contraception prevents conception, the forming of a new human entity.
    Abortion kills a new human entity


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  • #4902
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,040 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Tell you what, if this is removed lets all come back in 10 years and see how the rate of abortions is going. In all likelihood, the rate will have risen.

    Even though evidence from countries with abortion shows a decline?


  • #4903
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Susie, there are extremists on both sides of the argument.
    On the Yes side there are those who would love to see on demand Late Term abortions in this country, citing a woman's right to choose.
    On the No side there are those who are against abortion for the rare hard cases.
    And then there is the majority in the middle ground or who have yet to decide.
    Political decisions should always be for the middle ground.

    With the current crop of No politicians and campaigners and I mean ALL of them you will never, ever get any relaxing whatsoever of the 8th amendment.

    Eamonn McGuinness, who's currently telling anyone who'll listen that the POLDPA is an ideal piece of legislation, challenged it in the High Court when it was introduced.

    The Sherlocks and that extended family, members of whom are painting themselves 50 shades of reasonable and claiming all this about representing the middle ground who would support removing the 8th but aren't comfortable with the legislation opposed the right to travel, the right to information, the validity of suicide as a risk to life.

    No voters are diverse, but the pro-life campaign in Ireland is and always has been a group of religious extremists who will fight tooth and nail against ANY change. Anyone who thinks we can reject this referendum and they'll suddenly start coming up with ways to deal with "hard cases" has been absolutely duped.

    And it bears repeating that the AG's advice is that legislation for certain cases like FFA is not possible with the 8th in place.


  • #4904
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,040 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    So constitutional right to life for the unborn is not removed for every single foetus with this referendum? Simple answer will do.

    You should really practice what you preach!


  • #4905
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,167 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    My point was its idiotic to say abortion could have prevented certain people being born.

    It was somebody on the No side who came up with that idiotic argument.


  • #4906
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    jimgoose wrote: »
    Yes. Yes it is. It should never have been there in the first place. This is a legislative matter, for the Legislature.

    A legislature which today consists of many from the Hard Left who favour abortion on demand. No thank you.

    The reason for constitutional protections such as the 8th is to protect rights from idiots in the Dail. We have seen with the many recent scandals how many incompetent fools there are in Dail Eireann. It seems to go up with each passing election.


  • #4907
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,216 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    pleas advice wrote: »
    contraception prevents conception, the forming of a new human entity.
    Abortion kills a new human entity

    One of my favourite idiocies is this line about the morning-after pill being available to ladies who get "caught out", as 'twere, no need for abortion at all, at all. This usually comes from the same sort of people who will calmly tell you that human life begins at conception. Conception can occur within a half-hour of sex, or as late as sometime the following day. Or the following three days, if you're a horse. See the problem?


  • #4908
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    My point was its idiotic to say abortion could have prevented certain people being born.

    Glad you agree. Your fellow no voters are very fond of that argument... and hang on, no, you already used it earlier:
    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    You'd wonder how many people walking around today might not be if abortion was freely available under the current proposals back then? During a downturn, abortion rates generally go up.

    It is, as you've now admitted, a bad argument.


  • #4909
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    It was somebody on the No side who came up with that idiotic argument.

    Source? Link?


  • #4910
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    It was somebody on the No side who came up with that idiotic argument.

    He used it himself earlier.


  • #4911
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I was responding to a post. Take it up with the original poster.

    You're the one saying it's "open season" on the unborn without the 8th. So how did the 8th protect the people you named, who were all born before the 8th was introduced?

    Or are you saying that it didn't and your "open season" comment is hyperbole? Because that's how it looks to me.

    But if I'm wrong, then feel free to show how the 8th protected those people.


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  • #4912
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Glad you agree. Your fellow no voters are very fond of that argument... and hang on, no, you already used it earlier:



    It is, as you've now admitted, a bad argument.

    And which post of mine would this be again?

    Quoting another poster, studies show economic issues play a large part in a significant number of abortions.


  • #4913
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Jesus, lads, my father was the result of a rape and he's voting yes. I, by default as his daughter also wouldn't be here, but I would also vote yes.

    We are all accidents of fate.


  • #4914
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    So constitutional right to life for the unborn is not removed for every single foetus with this referendum? Simple answer will do.
    If a yes vote nothing will change until new legislation is passed.


  • #4915
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,167 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Source? Link?

    you should try paying attention

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107084545&postcount=4839


  • #4916
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    jimgoose wrote: »
    One of my favourite idiocies is this line about the morning-after pill being available to ladies who get "caught out", as 'twere, no need for abortion at all, at all. This usually comes from the same sort of people who will calmly tell you that human life begins at conception. Conception can occur within a half-hour of sex, or as late as sometime the following day. Or the following three days, if you're a horse. See the problem?

    I'd put the line of when life begins (or, when a pregnancy begins, at least) at implantation,


  • #4917
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Macha wrote: »
    Jesus, lads, my father was the result of a rape and he's voting yes. I, by default as his daughter also wouldn't be here, but I would also vote yes.

    We are all accidents of fate.

    If it was only about victims of rape I would vote Yes myself.
    Its not though.
    The proposals which a majority in the Dail back or appear to back is unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks. Remove this particular proposal and the Yes side would win easily.


  • #4918
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,216 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    pleas advice wrote: »
    I'd put the line of when life begins (or, when a pregnancy begins, at least) at implantation,

    The Common Law disagrees with you.


  • #4919
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,167 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    And which post of mine would this be again?

    Quoting another poster, studies show economic issues play a large part in a significant number of abortions.

    would these be included in the spurious reasons you referred to earlier?
    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    It also allows unrestricted abortion for the most spurious reasons such as not shaming the wider family or parents/grandparents.

    Do you accept that most abortions have nothing to do with rape or incest? Or even fatal foetal abnormalities.

    Time for the Yes side to start answering questions rather than deflecting.

    You have my answers, you might not like them, but at least I answered. So now your turn.


  • #4920
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,216 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    A legislature which today consists of many from the Hard Left who favour abortion on demand. No thank you.

    The reason for constitutional protections such as the 8th is to protect rights from idiots in the Dail. We have seen with the many recent scandals how many incompetent fools there are in Dail Eireann. It seems to go up with each passing election.

    The reason for constitutional protections such as the 8th is the Roman Catholic Church, who have no earthly business messing with Bunreacht na hÉireann.


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  • #4921
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    If it was only about victims of rape I would vote Yes myself.
    Its not though.
    The proposals which a majority in the Dail back or appear to back is unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks. Remove this particular proposal and the Yes side would win easily.
    There is no way to prove someone was raped!


This discussion has been closed.
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