The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

circadian · 24-05-2018 09:52AM

Just watching the Pat Kenny show in full now and when Ronan drops his mental health bombshell, someone in the crowd can't believe what they're hearing.

I mean, wow. WOW. I can't believe he said that. This reaction pretty much sums it up for me.

shoocking.jpeg

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 09:53AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

How?.

we no longer consider homosexual acts a criminal offence
We no longer allow a husband to rape his wife
we no longer force pregnant women into homes

do you need more examples?

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 09:54AM

omerin wrote: »

Could I be allowed fast forward to Saturday where we will presume a yes victory, looking at the possible outcomes -

The Minister says he'll try to get legislation through during 2018, so 2019 they can start rolling out services.

There won't be any clinics, so protestors will have to content themselves with protests in O'Connell Street or the Dail.

50.1% win will be a mandate for the 12 week proposal - no way will they go with less.

Doctors will not resign since they will not be compelled to perform abortions.

Hospital cases will be handled in the normal ObGyn wards.

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 09:54AM

circadian wrote: »

Just watching the Pat Kenny show in full now and when Ronan drops his mental health bombshell, someone in the crowd can't believe what they're hearing.

I mean, wow. WOW. I can't believe he said that. This reaction pretty much sums it up for me.

shoocking.jpeg

I'm checking the NUI register ASAP. Next senate elections that tool has to be thrown out the door and the locks changed.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 24-05-2018 09:54AM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Kenny is a cuunt.

The two wallys on the yes side are a pack of salty cuunts too.

Mod note: brendanwalsh, don't post in this thread again,

BTJ

seamus · 24-05-2018 09:56AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Whoever thought it was a good idea to put Ronan Mullen on last night must be kicking themselves today.

It's all part of the playbook. Make it look like the No side are in tatters, that they're being destroyed in debates, and it will make the Yes voters complacent and mobilise the No voters.

It's all a tactic.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 09:57AM

A lot of information to process in this debate.

Am I right in thinking, if passed, there is a strong probability of abortion on demand to anyone who wants it up to 12 weeks?

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 09:57AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Which is a view that a lot of people in the middle ground share.

Its their 'pivot' its not their whole argument

Who cares what they think? Who cares what they campaign for? What matters is that the country is given a chance to have the the abortion regime it wants. And a fair choice to do that.

If the country at large was happy with ffa and not aod, would you deny them the opportunity. As it is, they are offered an extreme.

Fat chance. YOU want aod and are happy that you might well have it.

Coz its d'only way.

Way to go and entirely miss the point. I'm saying that if a more conservative proposal were on the cards, they'd be opposing that too.
The No side will never ever agree to any type of abortion.

And if people vote No in favour of waiting in hope for something more restrictive, they need to be prepared for the fact that the No side will vehemently oppose that too.
They are fooling themselves if they think this won't happen all over again, except this time it will be nastier because the cases will be more sensitive.

And we'll have to do all of this all over again, except this time there will be cases of FFA and Rape plastered all over towns and cities.

And I think those people have been through enough, without seeing what way the No side could potentially twist their circumstances to suit their agenda.
Sure they didn't give a rats ass about exploiting those with DS to further their cause, imagine what they'd come up with for rape and FFA?

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 09:57AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

look up womenhurt.ie

OK:

Women Hurt was founded in 2011 by Bernadette Goulding and Lynn Coles, both of whom regretted their abortions. Goulding in 2003 had founded an Irish chapter of Rachel's Vineyard, a similar organisation with a Catholic perspective. Coles had worked with a group called Surrendering the Secret, described as "an abortion recovery Bible study rooted in the Gospel".

In 2013, during the debate about Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013, representatives spoke at the National Vigil for Life organised by the Pro Life Campaign, and they participated in the 2014 Vigil.

In 2017, Women Hurt was one of 17 groups selected to present to the Citizens' Assembly during its review of the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution, which underpins Irish abortion law. Women Hurt was represented by Anthony Levatino, a controversial male doctor from the USA, which drew criticism for being a male doctor talking about abortion rather than a personal story from a woman who regretted her abortion.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:58AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't get that feeling at all. The Yes side, or those that I have talked to, understand that this is a very complex issue with no real winners. They are looking for the best "worst" solution to the issue.

If you offered to repeal (if necessary] the 8th and replace it with a constitutional amendment granting equal rights to the unborn + the power to legislate for a range of difficult cases. Would you get a greater majority view than is to be expected from the option granted us?

The country appears to think so. In which the Yes side havent picked the best argument -theyve picked an extremity.

The No side seem far more dogmatic. Their position is right, and any issues from that position is just something people need to get over. Nothing is more important than the foetus. Yes they agree that women go through trauma and pain and heartache, but it is a price worth paying to preserve the life of the unborn.

Sure. Abortion on the grounds of disability won't be permitted is still being put out there. Long after everyone (who is in anyway informed) knows its a dead duck

Billy86 · 24-05-2018 09:58AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I find it insulting that I can’t be trusted to not terminate a pregnancy, despite the fact that when I had an unplanned pregnancy I chose to continue with it when I had easy access to abortion.

Look, love, you know well how giddy you fickle minded lady folk can get after a few glasses of Prosecco. All that is being said is that there is a very real possibility you might hit the end of the bottle, pop down the shops with the girls for a top up, get distracted by the shiny, flashing neon lights outside doctors offices on the way, and pop in for a bunch of quickie abortions that your tiny little minds will later get all confused and upset about. Bad upset too, not box of chocolates and and a movie upset.

This is the reality, and if insults you it is because you cannot handle the truth. We men trust you, but you need help reaching the top shelf and don't even get me started in your parallel parking, so obviously we have to look after your best interests when you are incapable of doing so yourself.

#respectforwomenvoteNO #lovebothuntilbornthenforgetaboutthem

LuckyLloyd · 24-05-2018 09:59AM

The debates last night went very well again imo. Claire Byrne will hopefully learn from watching Pat Kenny chair a conversation of such significance in a firm and well informed manner.

For everyone on the Yes side, the issue now should really be about talking to your circle of family, friends, etc and making sure they're getting out to vote. Ask them if they're voting; how they're planning it in with work; etc. If the turnout is high, we will win.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 10:00AM

There were two major recessions in this country since 1983. The one in the mid to late 80s and the one that started in 2008.

You'd wonder how many people walking around today might not be if abortion was freely available under the current proposals back then? During a downturn, abortion rates generally go up.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 10:00AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

A lot of information to process in this debate.

Am I right in thinking, if passed, there is a strong probability of abortion on demand to anyone who wants it up to 12 weeks?

assuming FG can get the legislation through the dail there will be abortion available for women that are less than 12 weeks pregnant.

Movementarian · 24-05-2018 10:00AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Lord help to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can. And rhe wisdom to know the difference.

Or some such

Cop out of the highest order. You could try to change them but you havent or wont because to this date you have been willing to look the other way as have many in this country.

In the exact same fashion as people campaigning for years to remove the 8th amendment, you and others could have been campaigning to remove the 13th amendment and the right to travel. That is if you felt as strongly as you suddenly appear to over the unborn.

But guess what? You havent and the country at large hasnt. So I repeat its a massive cop out on your part to say to accept what you cannot change, if people took that view on the 8th we wouldnt be having this discussion. But they didnt so here we are.

Your quote should read:

'Lord, help me to look the other way on things I could change, the audacity to prevent others from seeking change. And the ignorance to not know the difference'.

Hector Savage · 24-05-2018 10:01AM

https://twitter.com/MickeyVaugn/status/999329305351122944

This disgusting racist misandric pig would almost make me change my mind .....

bnt · 24-05-2018 10:01AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Assuming you're not inclined to limit your understanding of what constitutes a human being to how many neurons its brain has managed to drum up, that is.

Unclear what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that a fertilised egg, with no neurons at all, is a human being? In that case, what about the cells that my body is producing right now? My bone marrow is busy making white blood cells as I sit here at my desk. How about the bacteria in my intestines, digesting my breakfast? They are dividing i.e. creating new "life" as I type. Do you really imagine a fertilised egg is any different?

It sounds to me like you're taking the religious "vitalist" position, that there's some "spark" that makes "life" a black-and white, yes/no proposition. I don't share that viewpoint, as you can probably tell, but that's after a lot of thought and debate, not the result of a closed mind. An open mind is a good thing up to a point: too open, and any old crap could fall in ..! :pac:

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 10:02AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Look, love, you know well how giddy you fickle minded lady folk can get after a few glasses of Prosecco. All that is being said is that there is a very real possibility you might hit the end of the bottle, pop down the shops with the girls for a top up, get distracted by the shiny, flashing neon lights outside doctors offices on the way, and pop in for a bunch of quickie abortions that your tiny little minds will later get all confused and upset about. Bad upset too, not box of chocolates and and a movie upset.

This is the reality, and if insults you it is because you cannot handle the truth. We men trust you, but you need help reaching the top shelf and don't even get me started in your parallel parking, so obviously we have to look after your best interests when you are incapable of doing so yourself.

#respectforwomenvoteNO #lovebothuntilbornthenforgetaboutthem

Oh, you are so right. Thank you for reminding me I have no mind of my own and should defer to my husband. I will definitely vote to let you make my mind up for me. An excellent point well made. I see the light now. Thank you oh wise one.

Galwayguy35 · 24-05-2018 10:02AM

Maria Steen hadn't the same fire in her last night either I thought, or maybe it was the fact that PT didn't let her waffle on like happened on Claire Byrne Live.

It pains me that Mullen was born in the same county as me, I wouldn't mind someone having a different view but his comments were ridiculous last night.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 10:02AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Look, love, you know well how giddy you fickle minded lady folk can get after a few glasses of Prosecco. All that is being said is that there is a very real possibility you might hit the end of the bottle, pop down the shops with the girls for a top up, get distracted by the shiny, flashing neon lights outside doctors offices on the way, and pop in for a bunch of quickie abortions that your tiny little minds will later get all confused and upset about. Bad upset too, not box of chocolates and and a movie upset.

This is the reality, and if insults you it is because you cannot handle the truth. We men trust you, but you need help reaching the top shelf and don't even get me started in your parallel parking, so obviously we have to look after your best interests when you are incapable of doing so yourself.

#respectforwomenvoteNO #lovebothuntilbornthenforgetaboutthem

Thank you so much for putting me back in my place.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 10:03AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There were two major recessions in this country since 1983. The one in the mid to late 80s and the one that started in 2008.

You'd wonder how many people walking around today might not be if abortion was freely available under the current proposals back then? During a downturn, abortion rates generally go up.

Do you ever wonder how many kids you'd have if you never ever used contraception? Do you miss those kids?

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 10:05AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Way to go and entirely miss the point. I'm saying that if a more conservative proposal were on the cards, they'd be opposing that too.
The No side will never ever agree to any type of abortion.

So what? This is a democracy - you can campaign all you like. That dont mean the country has to go with you

Your asking us to trust women. But you trust neither men nor women to vote for that which they think best? Curious.

I'd have no prob if neither side was allowed to campaign. What id like is a vote reflective of the express desire of the people

And we'll have to do all of this all over again, except this time there will be cases of FFA and Rape plastered all over towns and cities.

And I think those people have been through enough, without seeing what way the No side could potentially twist their circumstances to suit their agenda.
Sure they didn't give a rats ass about exploiting those with DS to further their cause, imagine what they'd come up with for rape and FFA?

Do yoy want to make a truly democratic omlette or do you want to avoid breaking eggs?

NuMarvel · 24-05-2018 10:05AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There were two major recessions in this country since 1983. The one in the mid to late 80s and the one that started in 2008.

You'd wonder how many people walking around today might not be if abortion was freely available under the current proposals back then? During a downturn, abortion rates generally go up.

Probably not that many more, if any, considering the number of women travelling for abortions increased after the 8th.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 10:05AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There were two major recessions in this country since 1983. The one in the mid to late 80s and the one that started in 2008.

You'd wonder how many people walking around today might not be if abortion was freely available under the current proposals back then? During a downturn, abortion rates generally go up.

what about the people not here because condoms and the pill were legalised? should be go back to banning them?

....... · 24-05-2018 10:05AM

This post has been deleted.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 10:06AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There were two major recessions in this country since 1983. The one in the mid to late 80s and the one that started in 2008.

You'd wonder how many people walking around today might not be if abortion was freely available under the current proposals back then? During a downturn, abortion rates generally go up.

Rates of births go up too.

It wasnt me123 · 24-05-2018 10:07AM

pleas advice wrote: »

..

They are not allowed to just pick polling clerks and checkers!

These are chosen by the County Registrar / and the Registration Commission.

They are just scare mongering.

The only person, apart from the Presiding Officer and Poll Clerk, allowed to observe is a Personation Agent and he has to have prior written permission from the County Registrar.

So lies and scare mongering

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 24-05-2018 10:08AM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Already seems to be a better debate than last night.

Maria doing the NO side proud.

Pat being very antagonistic.

Pat Kenny didn't seem to realise he was meant to be facilitating the debate, not taking part in it. I imagine someone had a word with him during the first ad break as his behaviour was disgraceful up until then.

Regina Doherty was breathtakingly rude and pushy.

Grayson · 24-05-2018 10:09AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

If you offered to repeal (if necessary] the 8th and replace it with a constitutional amendment granting equal rights to the unborn + the power to legislate for a range of difficult cases. Would you get a greater majority view than is to be expected from the option granted us?

That's not possible. You can't grant rights and remove them in the same section. And trying to grant qualified rights is even more complicated. You're essentially trying to find a phrase lose enough to make sure women don't die and at the same time limiting when they can get treatment.

It wasnt me123 · 24-05-2018 10:09AM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Observers are allowed, and they can, for example question the eligibility of a voter to the official clerk. Observers don't stand looking over your shoulder at you marking your X, they normally sit quietly in the station looking quite bored

Observers from both parties are there to endure confidence in the system.

No they are not. Only a personation agent, with previous written consent can observe and they can't speak to the people queing to vote, they must put their questions to the presiding officer. Under no circumstances can you have randomers wandering around the election halls.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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