The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Pherekydes · 24-05-2018 01:30PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes side call for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks yet are outraged when someone calls for others to be aborted. Anyone else see the irony here?

Obviously not you or the Love Drogheda Boat twit.

Noo · 24-05-2018 01:30PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well that's not how things will pan out if this ref is rejected. The 'pro life' groups will promptly thank all who supported their view, then shut up promptly.

You won't hear a stir outa them, nada. They'll watch and wait and prepare for another offensive in 10, 20, 35 years.

Exactly this. Nothing will come of nothing.
Only a yes vote will instigate any change.

Ush1 · 24-05-2018 01:30PM

seamus wrote: »

So I hear you're a racist now, Father?

Racist? What did I say that's racist?

NuMarvel · 24-05-2018 01:30PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well that's not how things will pan out if this ref is rejected. The 'pro life' groups will promptly thank all who supported their view, then shut up promptly.

You won't hear a stir outa them, nada. They'll watch and wait and prepare for another offensive in 10, 20, 35 years.

More importantly, you won't hear a peep out of the likes of Bella either. Voters like her won't be the ones calling for a different type of change if it's a No vote. They won't be writing to their TDs or organising marches. It'll be people who have voted Yes that will be doing that. Because they're the ones that really want change.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 01:31PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well that's not how things will pan out if this ref is rejected. The 'pro life' groups will promptly thank all who supported their view, then shut up promptly.

You won't hear a stir outa them, nada. They'll watch and wait and prepare for another offensive in 10, 20, 35 years.

The No side like the Yes side is not a homogenous group. There are a wide variety of opinions ranging from the extreme to the middle ground, again like the Yes side.
The middle ground largely advocates a different referendum which deals with the hard and extreme cases such as rape, incest, FFA, risk to mothers life and severe mental anguish. These latter cases though tragic, represent a small minority of abortions. I think even the Yes side accept that. Virtually every other abortion is on a viable healthy foetus which one day will become a normal healthy human being.

The path to this referendum started off dealing with those hard cases in the early days and then mushroomed to abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 01:32PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Would it be ok if he said "The Yes side should be aborted before 12 weeks" ?

No. you seem to have missed my emphasis on the words CHOICE and FORCED.

LuckyLloyd · 24-05-2018 01:32PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Domestic violence, underage pregnancy, homelessness, poverty ARE hard cases.

The least a child deserves - ideally - is two committed parents; love; food; a roof over its head and hope. We presume all too easily that those things will always be available or that the absence of any of them can be easily worked around.

Ush1 · 24-05-2018 01:32PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Someone please be outraged at me pleeease

I'm laughing at someone referring to any Irish political party as right wing to any Americans reading.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 01:33PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The No side like the Yes side is not a homogenous group. There are a wide variety of opinions ranging from the extreme to the middle ground, again like the Yes side.
The middle ground largely advocates a different referendum which deals with the hard and extreme cases such as rape, incest, FFA, risk to mothers life and severe mental anguish. These latter cases though tragic, represent a small minority of abortions. I think even the Yes side accept that.

how many of those cases are acceptable collateral damage? Is it ok if 10 women suffer? 100? 1000? because that is what you are saying when you vote no.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

This referendum started off dealing with those hard cases in the early days and then mushroomed to abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.

The 12 weeks is a compromise that the citizens assembly came up with.

jaykay74 · 24-05-2018 01:34PM

G.Leech wrote: »

xxx

Do you trust women ?

Noo · 24-05-2018 01:34PM

Im off to bed, being an irish woman of child bearing age on the other side of the world unfortunately doesn't afford me the right to vote on something affecting so many of my friends and family. Good luck ireland, im rooting for ya!

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 01:35PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

That wasnt my question though was it?

My question was

How does her choice affect You?

How does someone's choice to take drugs affect me or you?

How does someone's choice to shoot someone affect me?

Do you understand how the legal system works? The vast majority of cases in the courts will not affect me or you.

spookwoman · 24-05-2018 01:37PM

Penn wrote: »

It'd be a short conversation after a No vote.

"Should we legislate for rape cases and FFAs?"
"Can't. 8th Amendment. Let's take an early lunch."

It's like talking to a brick wall on a merry-go-round.
They know the 8th is the issue and needs to go.
I dont know if they are using lets talk and lets legislate after as filling empty air or just saying to sound good but in reality they do't want anything to change at all

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 01:37PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how many of those cases are acceptable collateral damage? Is it ok if 10 women suffer? 100? 1000? because that is what you are saying when you vote no.

The 12 weeks is a compromise that the citizens assembly came up with.

And how many healthy viable foetus's are equally acceptable collateral damage if the 12 week proposal is brought in?

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 01:38PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

How does someone's choice to take drugs affect me or you?

How does someone's choice to shoot someone affect me?

Do you understand how the legal system works? The vast majority of cases in the courts will not affect me or you.

Do you have a constitutional right to travel to another country and take drugs? Or shoot someone?

Are you even aware of the 13th and 14th amendments?

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 01:38PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The middle ground largely advocates a different referendum which deals with the hard and extreme cases such as rape, incest, FFA, risk to mothers life and severe mental anguish.

Can you name a spokesperson for this middle ground? Give a link to one of them in an article or a Dáil speech?

Explain where they have been for the last 35 years?

jimgoose · 24-05-2018 01:38PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And how many healthy viable foetus's are equally acceptable collateral damage if the 12 week proposal is brought in?

If you take the view that they are not yet human and autonomous legal persons, all of them.

Permabear · 24-05-2018 01:39PM

This post has been deleted.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 01:39PM

spookwoman wrote: »

It's like talking to a brink wall on a merry-go-round.
They know the 8th is the issue and needs to go.
I dont know if they are using lets talk and lets legislate after as filling empty air or just saying to sound good but in reality they do't want anything to change at all

Another referendum with better proposals is the solution.

Stripping the right to life of EVERY unborn child in the state to deal with a tiny number of hard cases is not the answer but that's exactly what the referendum tomorrow will do.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 01:39PM

G.Leech wrote: »

Did you know that Cristiano Ronaldo’s mother wanted to abort him?

In her autobiography, “Mother Courage”, Dolores Aveiro explains that a restrictive abortion laws and a doctor who strongly advised her against that course of action dissuaded her, giving rise to perhaps the greatest footballer of all time.
.

Oh dear. Ronaldo's mother still had a choice. And I don't think we can use the story of "your kid might grow up to be a famous soccer player" as in incentive to convince women not to seek terminations.
They aren't imbeciles.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 01:40PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And how many healthy viable foetus's are equally acceptable collateral damage if the 12 week proposal is brought in?

As many as the women carrying them decide is necessary. A living woman is worth more to me a 12 week old fetus. Trust women. they dont have abortions for the laugh.

Now that i've answered your question perhaps you could answer the question you responded to?

how many of those cases are acceptable collateral damage? Is it ok if 10 women suffer? 100? 1000? because that is what you are saying when you vote no.

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 01:40PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

How does someone's choice to take drugs affect me or you?

Drug addiction has impact on society in terms of petty crime, gangland shootings as they supply the drugs and lead to rough areas.

How does someone's choice to shoot someone affect me?

As is shown in America, loose gun law leads to innocent unassociated people being killed.

Do you understand how the legal system works? The vast majority of cases in the courts will not affect me or you.

You clearly don't. Abortion decision is a personal decision. Whether a woman has a baby or not has no impact on other people or society.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-05-2018 01:41PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong, I think they should have the respect to NOT use them, but you’ll never stop them unfortunately.

A Yes tomorrow means never having to see abortion posters on lampposts ever again.

Vote Yes

Repeal the 8th.

Calina · 24-05-2018 01:41PM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

Noo wrote: »

But you'd rather a NO outcome and just leave things the way they are?

I'd rather a No vote and a proper conversation afterwards about how to deal with FFA, rape cases and also indeed about supporting mothers who do not want to keep their children through a huge review of our adoption and fostering services.

It is not goung to happen. You had a chance at the Citizens Assembly. You had a chance at the Oireachtas Committee. It did not happen because the no side is uncompromising. They do not want abortion for the hard cases.

To suggest they would consider it is nonsense. They would have brought it in the two main fora prior to this referendum. Mullen didn't address it in his minority report and the no campaign is using it purely as a distractor late into a campaign they have handled badly.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 01:41PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

they already have that choice. but that should not be the only choice.

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 01:42PM

jaykay74 wrote: »

Do you trust women ?

nonsense argument, it means nothing
'trust women to have an abortion if she wants'

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 01:42PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Another referendum with better proposals is the solution.

Stripping the right to life of EVERY unborn child in the state to deal with a tiny number of hard cases is not the answer.

Which the No side have already confirmed they will campaign against.

They have said (multiple representatives on multiple platforms) that they would force a 12 year old child who became pregnant through rape to stay pregnant against her will.

They don't agree with abortion in any circumstances whatsoever. A future campaign would be even nastier if the current one is to go by. They have shown no sensitivity this time around, can you imagine what their posters against FFA and abortion would look like?????

NuMarvel · 24-05-2018 01:42PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The 12 weeks is a compromise that the citizens assembly came up with.

I don't know how anyone can think the 12 weeks is some kind of surprise that's been sprung at the last minute. The Assembly recommended it over a year ago, the Committee recommended it in December, government ministers have publicly supported it since announcing a referendum in January, it was in the policy paper published in early March and in the draft bill published in late March, just after the referendum was formally confirmed.

If someone is only now learning about the 12 weeks, they really haven't been paying attention.

storker · 24-05-2018 01:42PM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

I'd rather a No vote and a proper conversation afterwards about how to deal with FFA, rape cases and also indeed about supporting mothers who do not want to keep their children through a huge review of our adoption and fostering services.

Unless by "afterwards" you mean in another 35 years time, such a conversation won't be taking place. The "pro-life" lobby had not years, but decades in which to have a conversation about such cases, but they weren't interested. Instead they used the 8th Amendment as earplugs and chanted "La la la we're not listening", and they have no intention of changing that approach. Vague handwaves in the direction of "conversations", "considerations" and "reviews" should be seen for what they are - a last-minute attempt to hoodwink enough Yes voters into voting No to secure a No result. Then it'll be back to business as usual..."No" to everything. Anyone who believes otherwise is either part of the con, just kidding themselves, or hasn't been paying attention.

_

spookwoman · 24-05-2018 01:42PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I agree, her choice and if she decides to walk away after the birth she signs away her rights if he is wants to raise it.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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