The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-05-2018 09:06AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Most yes voters totally ignoring what an abortion after 12 weeks actually is. As usual.

Actually I would say it is people like yourself ignoring many of the attributes of "What it actually is". Attributes like "rare" and "mostly unavoidable" being just two of those attributes.

Late term abortions almost entirely occur in women who WANT to continue on to have a baby, but for some medical or other unavoidable necessity the pregnancy has to be terminated. And where possible we terminate the PREGNANCY not the fetus, which is a much different thing.

What your point is, or even think your point is, by referring to such terminations..... let alone what is actually involved in performing one...... is not clear at this point to me. And, I suspect, to you.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 09:06AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

nice deflection eh!.

Most yes voters totally ignoring what an abortion after 12 weeks actually is. As usual.

Heres an ex abortion Dr to explain

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=53tzMV9OmvY

we are all well aware of what a surgical abortion involves. Most of us were forced to watch one as part of sex ed in school. You seem to have forgotten that abortions past 12 week will only be for those need one for medical reasons. They aren't pleasant but then neither is whatever medical problem that lead to an abortion being required.

RobertKK · 24-05-2018 09:07AM

gmisk wrote: »

I wouldn't waste your time and energy replying to that poster.
He was already asked not to post on this thread but here he is (see page 194 of this thread)

My thread ban was lifted.

Putinbot wrote: »

Mod-Robbertkk's thread ban lifted. Please don't report his posts when he posts.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 09:07AM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Nobody is going to actually click on that. The truth hurts. Willful blindness and sanitization of the issue is the way to go.

Nobody will click on because it wont tell us anything we don't already know.

gmisk · 24-05-2018 09:07AM

My apologies seems ban was lifted I will just put them back on ignore.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:09AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

nice deflection eh!.

Most yes voters totally ignoring what an abortion after 12 weeks actually is. As usual.

Heres an ex abortion Dr to explain

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=53tzMV9OmvY

It's a powerful video. Whilst disturbing, its doesnt contain graphic imagery.

I used to have a somewhat sanitised view of WWII. Until I saw the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan. It changef my view of war everywhere forever.

There are none so blind as those who will not look.

With the emphasis on the word "will". Your will is your responsibility and yours alone

RobertKK · 24-05-2018 09:10AM

gmisk wrote: »

My apologies seems ban was lifted I will just put them back on ignore.

Apology accepted.

Grayson · 24-05-2018 09:11AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

nice deflection eh!.

Most yes voters totally ignoring what an abortion after 12 weeks actually is. As usual.

Heres an ex abortion Dr to explain

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=53tzMV9OmvY

I believe you'll find that most yes voters here do know what it involves.

I'm not clicking on that link but it's nice to see that the tradition of using graphic imagery instead of an argument still exists.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 09:12AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

It's a powerful video. Whilst disturbing, its doesnt contain graphic imagery.

I used to have a somewhat sanitised view of WWII. Until I saw the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan. It changef my view of war everywhere forever.

There are none so blind as those who will not look.

With the emphasis on the word "will". Your will is your responsibility and yours alone

Perhaps we’re not looking because we’ve already seen it? There’s a lot of medical procedures that are horrible to look at.

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2018 09:13AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

It's a powerful video. Whilst disturbing, its doesnt contain graphic imagery.

I used to have a somewhat sanitised view of WWII. Until I saw the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan. It changef my view of war everywhere forever.

There are none so blind as those who will not look.

With the emphasis on the word "will". Your will is your responsibility and yours alone

it took a movie to make you realise that war is hell? What did you think it involved before that?????

Call me Al · 24-05-2018 09:13AM

retro:electro wrote: »

Could shift Pat Kenny after that debate. Ronan Mullen wtf what a goon. Is he a plant for the Yes? Absolute turd of a human

Cast your mind back 6 years ago to when TFMR ladies and their families met tds and senators (including Mr Mullen) in Leinster House.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/04/21/the-nasty-td-the-smirking-senator/

He was a nasty man then and he's still a nasty man now.

kylith · 24-05-2018 09:14AM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Stonedpilot wrote: »

nice deflection eh!.

Most yes voters totally ignoring what an abortion after 12 weeks actually is. As usual.

Heres an ex abortion Dr to explain

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=53tzMV9OmvY

Nobody is going to actually click on that. The truth hurts. Willful blindness and sanitization of the issue is the way to go.

Or because we know what’s involved, but it’s totally irrelevant because the proposed legislation is for abortion to 12 weeks and then in _extremely_ limited and heartbreaking situations after that.

Is, for example, a termination at 16 weeks worse than letting an adult woman die?

bnt · 24-05-2018 09:17AM

I'm from the UK and so not entitled to vote, but it's not as if I've been unable to avoid the debates. The most annoying thing to me has the been the unwillingness of the No side in particular to acknowledge that Ireland is one of the last Western countries to face the abortion question. There is a wealth of data out there about the impact of legalised abortion on society. I don't know whether it's wilful ignorance, but we're over 50 years in to the sexual revolution and it's the most "liberal" societies that have the better overall outcomes.

It's perfectly normal and OK to be against abortion on a personal level - that's your right, and it's your behaviour to control. The No side are going beyond that personal mandate and saying "we know what's best for you" based on moralistic ideology, not on evidence - since the evidence points in the other direction.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 09:18AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Those posters are extremely crass, but I can see why they use them- they’re extremely provocative. However, with imagery like that they should be made to prove that it’s factual (ie: it represents the appropriate gestational age) and they shouldn’t be allowed near maternity hospital or schools.

Those posters should not be allowed full stop. If it is not suitable for a child to see it should not be used. We have a watershed on the television. We have age limits for films and computer games. We have laws on public nudity. We have laws on advertisements. But stick up whatever you like on the lampposts?

Nettle Soup · 24-05-2018 09:20AM

I think Fianna Fail have tried to ride both horses in this race. They have been quite sly about it too.
Many of the FF TDs are on the No side for all kinds of spurious reasons but their leader is on the Yes side.
They want to show the public that they agree with both sides but Martin also knows he needs more TDs in Dublin if
FF are ever to get back to power.

Fine Gael for all their failings actually showed a lot of courage in publishing the draft bill before the referendum. It was a risk.

Bannasidhe · 24-05-2018 09:21AM

ittakestwo wrote: »

I don't get how anybody can argue that the 8th does not give the unborn more a legal right than if it was not there.... I know somebody can go abroad but in this jurisdiction they have a legal right no mater how far along it is. If we remove the 8th the unborn wont have a legal right up till 12 weeks.

But to be unborn there has to be an existence. The 8th amendment cant protect something that is not there. So I don't have a problem with people using contraception as there is no existence and nothing that can be protected by law.

I argued exactly that - and gave just a few points why.
The 8th is now nothing more than a sop to the Pro-life movement as it has been rendered obsolete. There was some chance when abortion information was censored and there was no right to travel. Some chance, but yet women still travelled...

Once the right to information and the right to travel were decided - in a referendum - the 8th became nothing more than an NIMBY clause.

Now we have cheap flights and the internet. 3,000 women a year travel. We don't have figures for how many take abortion pills because they are illegal.

The 8th doesn't prevent the majority of women who want to terminate a pregnancy from doing so, it prevents them from doing so in Ireland where they can have a local support network, it forces an unknown number to do so in secret in their bedroom. The only unborn it 'saves' are those of women who cannot/are not allowed to travel or cannot access the pills. It forces those very women least able to care for a child to have a child.

'Saves the unborn' to be born into direct provision and face the possibility of being 'repatriated' to what ever hell hole their mother fled.

Noo · 24-05-2018 09:23AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's the craic with the "trust women" slogan on yes posters? I think its a bit of a strawman argument. The no side is not saying they don't trust women.

One of the In Her Shoes stories sums this one up well. Teenage girl finds herself pregnant, obviously not an ideal situation. Her parents are very supportive and offer her all help and funding she needs to go to England, pushing that suggestion. After much thought she decides to keep the baby.

Her family situation allowed her to have the choice. She made the choice that felt right for her. Just because abortion was available to her it didnt automatically mean she was going to terminate the pregancy. And this is what it means to trust women to make the right choice.

She will be voting yes.

Wrongway1985 · 24-05-2018 09:23AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it took a movie to make you realise that war is hell? What did you think it involved before that?????

Dunno he seemed to be under the impression surgical procedures made pleasant viewing too.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 09:24AM

I’ve actually experienced a spontaneous abortion myself. It was pretty horrific and gory. I’m still voting yes. And I’m a passionate yes at that. Having experienced pregnancy loss I would not force any woman to continue carrying a baby she is desperate for that she knows will not survive. It is the ultimate cruelty.

So telling people if they saw an abortion they would vote no is stupid. When people like me that have been through one are motivated to vote yes for the very reason of having experienced a spontaneous abortion.

wexie · 24-05-2018 09:25AM

bnt wrote: »

I'm from the UK and so not entitled to vote, but it's not as if I've been unable to avoid the debates. The most annoying thing to me has the been the unwillingness of the No side in particular to acknowledge that Ireland is one of the last Western countries to face the abortion question. There is a wealth of data out there about the impact of legalised abortion on society. I don't know whether it's wilful ignorance, but we're over 50 years in to the sexual revolution and it's the most "liberal" societies that have the better overall outcomes.

I couldn't possibly do anything but agree with you on this...but (always a but) I do feel the need to point out that the 'best' outcome of course is something incredibly subjective. I'd imagine there are plenty of people out there (like the no voters we're talking about) who wouldn't agree with you and would be quite happy to go back to sticking all the gays in the closet ('if they don't know it's out there they wouldn't choose it' kinda guf), roll back any openness about sex, sexuality, no sex before marriage, no SSM etc. etc. etc.

You know, the 'good old days' :rolleyes:

bnt wrote: »

It's perfectly normal and OK to be against abortion on a personal level - that's your right, and it's your behaviour to control. The No side are going beyond that personal mandate and saying "we know what's best for you" based on moralistic ideology, not on evidence - since the evidence points in the other direction.

I wonder what it is about strict morals that involves the need to impose them on others for 'your own good'. It's a very strange mindset I find.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 09:26AM

Dressing gown wrote: »

Those posters should not be allowed full stop. If it is not suitable for a child to see it should not be used. We have a watershed on the television. We have age limits for films and computer games. We have laws on public nudity. We have laws on advertisements. But stick up whatever you like on the lampposts?

Don’t get me wrong, I think they should have the respect to NOT use them, but you’ll never stop them unfortunately.

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 09:27AM

bnt wrote: »

I'm from the UK and so not entitled to vote, but it's not as if I've been unable to avoid the debates. The most annoying thing to me has the been the unwillingness of the No side in particular to acknowledge that Ireland is one of the last Western countries to face the abortion question. There is a wealth of data out there about the impact of legalised abortion on society. I don't know whether it's wilful ignorance, but we're over 50 years in to the sexual revolution and it's the most "liberal" societies that have the better overall outcomes.

It's perfectly normal and OK to be against abortion on a personal level - that's your right, and it's your behaviour to control. The No side are going beyond that personal mandate and saying "we know what's best for you" based on moralistic ideology, not on evidence - since the evidence points in the other direction.

Its the impact on the baby rather than society that sits uppermost in a No mind.

Is there a wealth of information out there about that.

Assuming you're not inclined to limit your understanding of what constitutes a human being to how many neurons its brain has managed to drum up, that is.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 09:28AM

ittakestwo wrote: »

But removing the 8th will reduce the legal right of the unborn in our constitution, and that is why I am going No as I want the unborn to remain having a robust legal right.

The Supreme Court clarified in March that the right to life in 40.3.3 is the only right the unborn have in the Constitution, so removing the 8th will not just reduce the rights of the unborn, it will eliminate that single Constitutional right of the unborn.

Which will put things back where they were in 1982 before this mad push for positive rights for fetuses from the pro-life idiots started.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 09:29AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong, I think they should have the respect to NOT use them, but you’ll never stop them unfortunately.

I agree. But I think there are a lot of parents like me that utterly despair at those posters, and I’m hoping if when the dust settles on this we kick up enough of a fuss that there will be some regulation on the content of those posters.

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Akrasia · 24-05-2018 09:30AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the craic with the "trust women" slogan on yes posters? I think its a bit of a strawman argument. The no side is not saying they don't trust women.

Of course they are. Their entire campaign is about how women will use abortion 'on demand'. Implying that women will be frivolous and irresponsible and use it as a form of contraception

retro:electro · 24-05-2018 09:30AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's the craic with the "trust women" slogan on yes posters? I think its a bit of a strawman argument. The no side is not saying they don't trust women.

According to Ronan Mullen we’ll all be lying saying we’re mentally ill so we can have abortions. Social abortions mind you. You know, get all the girls together and while we’re getting the nails done we’ll have a few cocktails and then go for abortions on the way home.
There is nothing at all trusting about his “floodgates will open mantra”. Same crap that speculated every second couple would be getting divorced and all the gays would be adopting all the babies.

Ush1 · 24-05-2018 09:31AM

wexie wrote: »

I wonder what it is about strict morals that involves the need to impose them on others for 'your own good'. It's a very strange mindset I find.

The idea that humans are inherently destructive and have to hold back the dark side of our natures. Why we have laws against murder etc...

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The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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