The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 10:59AM

Dressing gown wrote: »

Many women are pressurised into abortion because of the shaming culture in Ireland. There is clearly still a large demographic of people that are prolife. How do you think that makes the sisters and daughters of those families feel when faced with a crisis pregnancy? So what do they do? They have an abortion in secret and alone because they do not want their prolife families to be shamed by their abortion. I know of this happening in my own family. If abortion became legal here and dialogue opened up the pressure on women could only reduce. This trend for many on the yes side is coming from a place where women do not want to be told what to do anymore. We have had enough. Empowering women is giving them the strength to stand up to the pressure you mistakenly try to use to support the no side. Empower your women and vote yes.

In these cases, you think they are going to have a public abortion here in Ireland and invite friends and family around to partake or something like that?

Abortions, whether they take place here or in the UK, are usually in secret and alone and are traumatic. While you make a good case, its still not strong enough in my opinion.

The case of having an abortion so as not to shame the wider family is also a poor reason to terminate a pregnancy.

As for standing up for women, half of fetus's will one day be women, a point often ignored by many.

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 11:00AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Indeed. Equally it can be said there are people who DID want an abortion but were pressured into not having one. Pressuring people into decisions they do not want to make is what is the "evil" here, not cherry picked cases in one direction or the other.

Agree 100%.

Of course people being pressurized against an abortion would be seen as a good thing by the No side.

Billy86 · 24-05-2018 11:01AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

I agree !

But surely you can't be happy this fool is on the yes side ? ??

You think she's beneficial to the cause ?

Sure she comes over poorly, but what's weird with that video is it mashes together a bunch of provocative comments by her at the start... then shows some of the full video.

The video is called "A Pro Choice Message to the Men of Ireland". There is a line in the early snippet that says "to all your men, know your place" - now that sounds like complete headbanging whackery, but what is strange to me is that this is the crux of the Tweet - the 'message to men', yet in the extended video part they completely leave it out as if they don't want to give context to what she was saying.

This is the full statement that they show:
"I just want to say to the families and friends of Savita that I am really ****ing sorry that you had to face the **** that you did in this ****ing country. I am really sorry to people like [didn't catch the name?] who had to die in her own house because the hospitals in this racist country did her a disgusting disservice. I am sorry to all the women who are still having to go through the **** in this country because a cowardly government is what's setting their lives apart."

I don't get what the racist part was about and it has zero context in this issue as the 8th amendment has absolutely nothing to do with race so she came over poorly mentioning that. The rest I more or less agree with actually, though our current government have gone about making changes though she sounds fairly self-important about it to be honest.

The "men know your place" comment in isolation does seem complete nuttery for sure, but I'm also curious why the guy who posted the thing decided to edit out of the lengthy part? Surely if it's anything like it sounds in isolation he would want to leave it in since it's the central part and title of his post?

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 11:02AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Am I right in thinking, if passed, there is a strong probability of abortion on demand to anyone who wants it up to 12 weeks?

Yes, that is the plan.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:02AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

We have abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.
Online pills and constitutionally protected travel to England ensure that. The 8th does not prevent abortion on demand merely makes abortion unsafe and dangerous. It also creates those hard cases you abhor.

Abortion, on request, in cooperation with a woman's own medical team, an opportunity to provide support and counselling, a check on gestation & a waiting period of 72 hours is absolutely 100% an improvement on the current situation.

I'll be voting yes.

I respect which way anyone votes and hopefully people also respect the No side.
Its a fundamental personal right to vote any way you wish.
Personally I will be voting No.

seamus · 24-05-2018 11:02AM

Ush1 wrote: »

The gay Indian right winger yeah?

So I hear you're a racist now, Father?

antiskeptic · 24-05-2018 11:03AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I would love for this vote to be pitched in a fair, representative way. Unfortunately the No side have refused to do that.

A fair and representative way would allow the electorate to draw a line at various places between status quo and a.o.d.

The strong indication is they would have preferred that.

The middle ground plus those from no/yes who figured better the middle than the opposing extreme would be in favour.

It would achieve a greater majority than this referendun will. Thus reflecting better, the wil of we, the people

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-05-2018 11:03AM

sugarman wrote: »

I see a lot of news stories today of people coming home to vote, isnt it against the law if youre currently not living in the state prior to the referendum?

Not automatically. There are a lot of factors which determine legal eligibility to vote. Including how long you have been out of the state, and what your current intentions to return are.

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 11:03AM

Ush1 wrote: »

The gay Indian right winger yeah?

Someone please be outraged at me pleeease

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 11:04AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

In these cases, you think they are going to have a public abortion here in Ireland and invite friends and family around to partake or something like that?

Abortions, whether they take place here or in the UK, are usually in secret and alone and are traumatic. While you make a good case, its still not strong enough in my opinion.

The case of having an abortion so as not to shame the wider family is also a poor reason to terminate a pregnancy.

As for standing up for women, half of fetus's will one day be women, a point often ignored by many.

Shurimgreat, you’ve been asked how legislating for cases of rape would work. So, what’s your thinking on it? How would it work in a practical sense?

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 11:04AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Claire Byrne will hopefully learn from watching Pat Kenny chair a conversation of such significance in a firm and well informed manner.

I think when the history is written that the No sides "win" in that debate will be seen as a Pyrrhic victory.

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 11:04AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I respect which way anyone votes and hopefully people also respect the No side.
Its a fundamental personal right to vote any way you wish.
Personally I will be voting No.

You've a right to vote any way you wish. You don't have a right to your opinion being respected. Nobody has that.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:04AM

erica74 wrote: »

Bum sex again.

Your immature post has been reported.

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 11:05AM

sugarman wrote: »

I see a lot of news stories today of people coming home to vote, isnt it against the law if youre currently not living in the state prior to the referendum?

If you are still ordinarily resident in Ireland, you are eligible to vote.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:06AM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

You've a right to vote any way you wish. You don't have a right to your opinion being respected. Nobody has that.

So you don't respect my right in a democracy to vote any way I like?

I guess you don't like democracy so.

erica74 · 24-05-2018 11:06AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Your immature post has been reported.

Oh no, I'm devastated.

Are you going to reply to anyone who has questioned the outlandish claims you've made?

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Good point. Contraception is always preferable to abortion. Abortion should always be the worst case scenario given how violent it is.

How is abortion violent?
Do you have any idea how that would make a woman, who has had an abortion because of FFA, feel? Do you think those women (2 women every week travel from Ireland) want to read that?

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I am all in favour of dealing with extreme cases such as rape, incest, fatal fetal abnormalities, life of the mother at serious risk (non mental health cases) and in extreme mental health cases. And yes abortion on demand for those cases.

I am not in favour of abortion on demand used on healthy babies up to 12 weeks.

What about healthy babies who have been conceived through rape or incest?

Why do you make a distinction between the life of the mother at serious risk "non mental health cases" and "extreme mental health cases"?

Shurimgreat wrote: »

As I said and its a fact, a lot of people walking around today who would not be because if abortion was available during recessions.

And nobody would know otherwise because they just wouldn't exist. Do you regularly going around thinking of people who don't exist and have never existed?

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And recessions are often temporary. It might be difficult economically to raise a child for a year or two but recessions always come to an end and women may end up regretting an abortion.

And what about all the women who don't regret their abortion? What about all the women who had an abortion in order to provide financially for the children they already had? 1 to 2 years of financial hardship (and I don't agree it would just be 1 to 2 years) would have an effect on the other children, what about those children?

Separately you have claimed "many women have been pressurized" but have not backed up that claim with actual evidence.

You have also been asked numerous times how you would legislate for the "hard" cases and have yet to respond.

I'm just highlighting these in case you missed them.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 11:07AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You'd wonder how many people walking around today might not be if abortion was freely available under the current proposals back then?

I was walking around in the 80s, and if you think abortion was not freely available via a simple ferry crossing, you are quite wrong. The 8th did not stop women from choosing in the 80s, or the 90s, or the 2000s, right up to today.

24-05-2018 11:08AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

A fair and representative way would allow the electorate to draw a line at various places between status quo and a.o.d.

The strong indication is they would have preferred that.

The middle ground plus those from no/yes who figured better the middle than the opposing extreme would be in favour.

It would achieve a greater majority than this referendun will. Thus reflecting better, the wil of we, the people

still ignoring that this referendum is to repeal what exists, nothing more and nothing less.

spookwoman · 24-05-2018 11:08AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Voting Yes means abortion on demand up to 12 weeks. Just so people are clear. Most abortions, likely over 90% will have nothing to do with the hard cases.
Its abortion on demand through the back door.

I'm as liberal as the next person, but this is a step too far for me.

Are you for equality and equal oppertunities?

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-05-2018 11:10AM

sugarman wrote: »

I'd a look out of curiosity, it states "You must be an ordinarily resident in the State on 1 September in the year before the Register comes into force."

Exactly what I said then

There is also this information "If you leave your address but you plan to return there within 18 months, you can continue to be registered there, as long you do not register at any other address."

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 11:11AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

So you don't respect my right in a democracy to vote any way I like?

I guess you don't like democracy so.

I’ll ask you one more time then I’ll just accept that you, like the rest of the no side, have no answer for this.

How do you propose we legislate for rape cases?

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:11AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Shurimgreat, you’ve been asked how legislating for cases of rape would work. So, what’s your thinking on it? How would it work in a practical sense?

Different referendum which removes the part about abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and deals better with the extreme cases.

The 12 week abortion on demand limit is like I said a two handed grab by those who want a very liberal abortion on demand regime where abortions can be carried out for the most minor and spurious of reasons such as not wanting to embarrass a family or upset their social standing.

Oddly enough the extreme cases may be very badly catered for if this referendum passes. Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join the queue like everyone else.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 11:12AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

In these cases, you think they are going to have a public abortion here in Ireland and invite friends and family around to partake or something like that?

Abortions, whether they take place here or in the UK, are usually in secret and alone and are traumatic. While you make a good case, its still not strong enough in my opinion.

The case of having an abortion so as not to shame the wider family is also a poor reason to terminate a pregnancy.

As for standing up for women, half of fetus's will one day be women, a point often ignored by many.

I don’t know how to respond para by paragraph on my phone but I’ll try.

It might sound like madness, but to really reduce abortion rates to as low as possible in this country I think attitudes to abortion needs to change. At the moment it is estimated that 1 in 20 pregnancies end in abortion. That is a lot. We need to get to the bottom of why this is happening. We can do better, through education, through support, through ways I haven’t thought of. But while there is accusations of murdering babies flying around people aren’t going to talk about abortions. It will remain secret. By making it legal in this country it will allow for an eventual shift in attitudes from cries of murder to the accepted reality that it happens. Then we can really get down to why it is happening. And address it properly armed with facts. I absolutely believe if the prolife movement was actually compassionate to women in crisis pregnancies there would be a massive reduction in the number of abortions in this country. I think it might be why you see a gradual reduction in abortion rates in countries that legalise abortion.

TL:DR first and second point; is yes I think legality of abortion would eventually shift attitudes and reduce the numbers of abortions happening. I think that’s why it has happened in countries that have already legalised abortion.

Re shame being a reason to abort a baby. I agree it’s a terrible reason and if those women felt they could talk to their loved ones about it they might not actually go through with the abortion. I think people are inherently good and if any of our loved ones came to is in a crisis we would try to support them whatever their decision was. I also think of you are willing to afford that compassion to your own loved one but not to your neighbour down the street, or the broke teenager in a housing estate then it’s a bit hypocritical.

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 11:12AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Different referendum which removes the part about abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and deals better with the extreme cases.

The 12 week abortion on demand limit is like I said a two handed grab by those who want a very liberal abortion on demand regime where abortions can be carried out for the most minor and spurious of reasons such as not wanting to embarrass a family or upset their social standing.

Oddly enough the extreme cases may be very badly catered for if this referendum passes. Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join a queue like everyone else.

You answered a different question there. I asked how do YOU propose we legislate for rape cases?

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-05-2018 11:12AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join the queue like everyone else.

How much time do you think is taken up per case exactly? Who's time is taken up? And what exactly do you think that person is doing with that time when it is taken up?

schemingbohemia · 24-05-2018 11:13AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

A fair and representative way would allow the electorate to draw a line at various places between status quo and a.o.d.

The strong indication is they would have preferred that.

The middle ground plus those from no/yes who figured better the middle than the opposing extreme would be in favour.

It would achieve a greater majority than this referendun will. Thus reflecting better, the wil of we, the people

Are you saying the Citizen's Assembly wasn't fair and representative?

It's legally impossible to provide for FFA/Rape/Incest without repealing the 8th, you know that but you keep pushing it as an alternative (which you would vote against anyway) to try to muddy the waters.

The whole No campaign has copied the Trump/Brexit line of populist nonsense, no facts, no analysis, no truth.

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 11:13AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I respect which way anyone votes and hopefully people also respect the No side.
Its a fundamental personal right to vote any way you wish.
Personally I will be voting No.

You've a right to vote any way you wish. You don't have a right to your opinion being respected. Nobody has that.

So you don't respect my right in a democracy to vote any way I like?

That's the opposite of what I wrote. Don't do that.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I guess you don't like democracy so.

I like democracy, but I do not like the idea that opinion is privileged. You have a right to vote as you wish, to hold any opinion you wish, to speak any part of either of those things as you wish.

You have no rights over whether your words or actions are respected by others, no rights to freedom from the consequences of your words and actions. That's essential for a healthy democracy.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 11:14AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Are you suggesting that its not?

Of course it's not, everyone knows it's not. that's why a fertilized egg has zero protection, none, in Irish law. Create them in a lab, freeze them, thaw them, experiment on them - it's open season.

ArmaniJeanss · 24-05-2018 11:14AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Voting Yes means abortion on demand up to 12 weeks. Just so people are clear. Most abortions, likely over 90% will have nothing to do with the hard cases.
Its abortion on demand through the back door.

I'm as liberal as the next person, but this is a step too far for me.

Not repealing the 8th for another generation, and therefore not fixing the issue with rape/incest/ffa is a step too little for me.

I'd like to think I'm not a callous person, love children as much as anyone, and am ultimately anti-abortion.
However I'm very much for the living here, my girlfriend, my sisters, my wonderful nieces, and am putting them first.

Repeal the vile 8th, then shape the legislation.

wexie · 24-05-2018 11:14AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Oddly enough the extreme cases may be very badly catered for if this referendum passes. Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join the queue like everyone else.

No they won't, majority will be dealt with by GP's. Do you really think a consultant will be needed to prescribe a few pills? Or a hospital for that matter?

_Dara_ wrote: »

Shurimgreat, you’ve been asked how legislating for cases of rape would work. So, what’s your thinking on it? How would it work in a practical sense?

You haven't also really answered this question. Or rather really haven't come near answering it.

What would your proposal be to deal with the cases of rape or incest? In a practical way, within a practical and useful timeframe?

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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