The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

wexie

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes, there would need to be at least some evidence to back it up. Again my opinion.

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

And you think all of this can be done inside of 12 weeks?

Or are we now moving the goalposts?

Shurimgreat

erica74 wrote: »

Oooh "bicker", I love that word:pac: I hope we can continue to bicker like obstreperous girls!



Aah so you have read the opening post which states claims must be backed up with evidence, which is a site wide rule. Any evidence for the claims you've made?

Like I said to an earlier poster, the Yes side seem to believe they don't have to provide any stats, facts or studies themselves and we should take what they say as a given. Lets see some from your side too, ie evidence to back up claims.

Secondly, if you believe that abortion is always solely a woman's decision, particularly in a marriage, then you are naïve in the extreme. I am sure some women on here have unfortunately experience of this situation and the discussions they had with male partners or even their parents.

SusieBlue

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes, there would need to be at least some evidence to back it up. Again my opinion.

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

No, no, no, no, no.

Most rapes are not investigated. Most go unreported.
There is no guidebook on how to deal with a rape. There is no one size fits all approach.
Many women never speak of their ordeal again after it happens. Their right to deal with their trauma should be respected.

What happens if there isn't enough evidence? Tough sh*t, here have a baby you don't want?
Are you really advocating that kind of system with Ireland abysmal track records for dealing with sexual assault cases? Given how long these cases take to go to trial?

Anita Blow

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes, there would need to be at least some evidence to back it up. Again my opinion.

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

Rape can only be proven in a court of law. There is no medical test to prove rape, as Maeve Eogan of the Sexual Assault Treatment Unit has stated.

The Citizen's Assembly with input from the judiciary and medical fields came to the conclusion that unrestricted access up to 12 weeks is the only practical solution to cases of rape

spookwoman

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes, there would need to be at least some evidence to back it up. Again my opinion.

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

wrong most rape cases are not reported
The last comprehensive study on the subject, the 2002 Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland report, found that 42 per cent of women had experienced some form of sexual abuse. Yet only 10 per cent of sexual offences were reported, it found. In 2009 – the last year for which we have figures – the conviction rate in rape cases in the Republic was 8 per cent
29th march 2018 https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/sexual-offences-a-system-in-need-of-change-1.3443529

Shurimgreat

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Because YOU were asked!

I have absolutely zero suggestions because there are none other than a 12 week window in very early pregnancy.

And I answered. And yes so did you - abortion on demand up to 12 weeks as do all the Yes side.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Zubeneschamali

Ush1 wrote: »

The gay Indian right winger yeah?

That's the lad.

It wasnt me123

Lads, Shurimgreat is asking exactly the same questions answered for the last 8 weeks; and spouting the same lies we have heard for the last 8 weeks.

Clearly as he is feeling the pressure of being the only No voter on here at the moment, lets all give him/her a rest and a chance to answer some of the other questions.

Don't interact - you are wasting your time

Repeal all the way - trust women to make the right decision for them

nozzferrahhtoo

On a lighter note, as threads like this need one on occasion, it is funny I have been talking to a few users about "empathy" over the last few days, and what it actually means. And how if one thinks one is feeling empathy for an inanimate object, or an unconscious entity, then one is likely projecting one's own feelings onto the object first, and feeling empathy for it second in response to that.

Anyway I was just putting my coke cans into a bag to bring back to the machine, to get my deposit on them back (wonderful system, wish more countries had it) when that very thing happened to me. I have, for fun, been sticking eyes on my coke cans you see. And when I peered into the bag and saw all their little terrified faces peering back out at me, not knowing where they were going and why I was planning to abandon them..... the empathy circuits of my brain actually did misfire and I had genuine feelings for the cans.

Mad how the human brain works sometimes. But quite often that is indeed what happens. We have feelings of empathy for objects or entities that simply do not warrant it due to what the word empathy actually means. Be that a coke can, or a 10 week old fetus.

Anyway here are my little friends. They are gone now, into the big scary machine.

AnSliabhCorcra

This may have been asked or covered elsewhere; if so, please forgive. When is it likely that the result of the referendum will be announced? Will we have feelers on the night of the referendum or is it more likely to take a few days thereafter?

Shurimgreat

spookwoman wrote: »

wrong most rape cases are not reported
The last comprehensive study on the subject, the 2002 Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland report, found that 42 per cent of women had experienced some form of sexual abuse. Yet only 10 per cent of sexual offences were reported, it found. In 2009 – the last year for which we have figures – the conviction rate in rape cases in the Republic was 8 per cent
29th march 2018 https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/sexual-offences-a-system-in-need-of-change-1.3443529

The responsible thing is to encourage all victims of rape to seek medical and garda assistance whether they seek abortion or not. I think even you agree on that.


Victims of rape need appropriate treatment and counselling, whether abortion is involved or not.

Cupcake_Crisis

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And I answered. And yes so did you - abortion on demand up to 12 weeks as do all the Yes side.

No you didn’t! You were asked how you would legislate and you can’t answer.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Water John wrote: »

And Teresa Lowe could have asked her sister (Pieta House) to advise the No camp on the reality of mental health and how real it is.

Why are you tarring the entire No side on the basis of one stupidly worded remark by Ronán Mullen?

pauldla

Nozz, you’re a monster.

uptherebels

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Like I said to an earlier poster, the Yes side seem to believe they don't have to provide any stats, facts or studies themselves and we should take what they say as a given. Lets see some from your side too, ie evidence to back up claims.

Yet another person who hasn't been reading the thread.
Anytime you want to show your evidence of the many women pressurised into having abortions that would be delightful

circadian

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Anyway here are my little friends. They are gone now, into the big scary machine.

Some amount of soft drinks, not to mention the Red bull. I hope you aren't drinking all that in short succession.

Shurimgreat

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Lads, Shurimgreat is asking exactly the same questions answered for the last 8 weeks; and spouting the same lies we have heard for the last 8 weeks.

Clearly as he is feeling the pressure of being the only No voter on here at the moment, lets all give him/her a rest and a chance to answer some of the other questions.

Don't interact - you are wasting your time

Repeal all the way - trust women to make the right decision for them

Grow up FFS.

We are trying to have a mature discussion here and posts like yours are not helping.

murpho999

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Yes, there would need to be at least some evidence to back it up. Again my opinion.

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

How do you know all this stuff?

How do you know how many rapes are reported?

It's a hugely traumatic experience to be raped. Then to discover a pregnancy adds to that trauma.

So you propose that this extremely traumatised woman must basically prove she has been raped within a 12 week period before being permitted an abortion?

It's crazy and totally cruel. I would not want to live in that society.

Legislate for 12 weeks and the victim can quietly and safely have an abortion without judgement and let her try to get her life back together.

If others who have not been raped but for whatever personal reason want to avail of that 12 week window then it's their choice.

If others don't and they wish to carry on their pregnancy as the majority of women do then they will do so.

It's simply a matter of choice, understanding , trust and compassion for me.

Zubeneschamali

sugarman wrote: »

isnt it against the law if youre currently not living in the state prior to the referendum?

No.

erica74

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Like I said to an earlier poster, the Yes side seem to believe they don't have to provide any stats, facts or studies themselves and we should take what they say as a given. Lets see some from your side too, ie evidence to back up claims.

You made a claim, you back it up.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Secondly, if you believe that abortion is always solely a woman's decision, particularly in a marriage, then you are naïve in the extreme. I am sure some women on here have unfortunately experience of this situation and the discussions they had with male partners or even their parents.

When did I say it's always solely a woman's decision?

SusieBlue

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

Why are you tarring the entire No side on the basis of one stupidly worded remark by Ronán Mullen?

In fairness he made a plethora of stupidly worded remarks last night.

Peadar Toibín was marginally better the night before, but he still stuttered and deflected before he all but admitted he'd fore a child to remain pregnant in cases of rape.

nozzferrahhtoo

pauldla wrote: »

Nozz, you’re a monster.

I know right? Clearly each can is individual and unique, so it should have rights

circadian wrote: »

Some amount of soft drinks, not to mention the Red bull. I hope you aren't drinking all that in short succession.

The cans with eyes were collected over a period of three months. The Red bull and cans without eyes belong to the guy beside me, different desk I hate Red Bull myself. Especially those weird flavored ones he likes.

Though if I was drinking them all in quick succession, it probably would explain to a lot of people why I write such long posts, in such short spaces of time

Shurimgreat

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

No you didn’t! You were asked how you would legislate and you can’t answer.

Do you understand how referendums particularly in the context of the 8th amendment work? I can explain it to you if you like or you can tell me what you think first. Looking forward to your explanation.

Nettle Soup

Shurimgreat wrote: »

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Lads, Shurimgreat is asking exactly the same questions answered for the last 8 weeks; and spouting the same lies we have heard for the last 8 weeks.

Clearly as he is feeling the pressure of being the only No voter on here at the moment, lets all give him/her a rest and a chance to answer some of the other questions.

Don't interact - you are wasting your time

Repeal all the way - trust women to make the right decision for them

Grow up FFS.

We are trying to have a mature discussion here and posts like yours are not helping.

He is right. You answer nothing.

Dressing gown

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

Why are you tarring the entire No side on the basis of one stupidly worded remark by Ronán Mullen?

Whatever my feelings are for the no side and the absolutist views of many, I have no doubt that Theresa Lowe and Maria Steen have the utmost respect for mental health.

spookwoman

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The responsible thing is to encourage all victims of rape to seek medical and garda assistance whether they seek abortion or not. I think even you agree on that.


Victims of rape need appropriate treatment and counselling, whether abortion is involved or not.

You cannot force anyone to report their rape. That is why they are looking for 12 weeks. 8% conviction so by using your standards not even 8 % would be able to get an abortion if they got raped and impregnated because they would have to wait to go to trial and get a conviction which takes well over 9 months

Cupcake_Crisis

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Grow up FFS.

We are trying to have a mature discussion here and posts like yours are not helping.

To be fair, in an adult discussion people answer questions they’ve been asked so we’re not really.

It wasnt me123

AnSliabhCorcra wrote: »

This may have been asked or covered elsewhere; if so, please forgive. When is it likely that the result of the referendum will be announced? Will we have feelers on the night of the referendum or is it more likely to take a few days thereafter?

They start counting on Saturday and unlike an election its a Yes pile, No pile and incomplete/damaged pile.

We will get results as soon as they start counting. There will be invigilators checking to make sure that no mistakes with the piles have been made. And they may even be checked again.

No there will be little talk about it on the actual night, until after 10pm, on tv and radio as they aren't allowed to talk during the opening hours of the referendum.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

SusieBlue wrote: »

In fairness he made a plethora of stupidly worded remarks last night.

Peadar Toibín was marginally better the night before, but he still stuttered and deflected before he all but admitted he'd fore a child to remain pregnant in cases of rape.

I thought Peadar Toibín made lots of good points on Prime Time personally. I didn't find Simon Harris very convincing. But I suppose, whichever side you're voting with, you will always see them as coming out best.

I do agree, though, that Ronán didn't help the No vote. But please can posters stop assuming his comment on mental health reflects the views of all No voters, because it doesn't.