The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Overheal · 23-05-2018 08:13AM

nullzero wrote: »

Acting like something and being something aren't the same. Again you failed to grasp the qualifying statement.

Thinly veiled masks over personal attacks do not stop them from being personal attacks.

Keep going. You’re doing splendid. /s

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 08:14AM

pleas advice wrote: »

And rape didn't happen in marriage before 1990?

Even the No leaders in the current debate do not think women who have abortions should be arrested and put in jail, so it would appear that even avid proponents of a No vote do not agree with you that abortion should be treated as murder.

But go right ahead and make your case. 170,000 murderers are prowling our streets undetected and unpunished according to your definition. Something should be done, if you are right.

defrule · 23-05-2018 08:15AM

Weather forecast is very good on Friday. People likely won’t turn up.

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 08:17AM

defrule wrote: »

Weather forecast is very good on Friday. People likely won’t turn up.

There a die hard voters on either side, a herd of wild horses wouldn’t stop them from voting. Myself included.

cournioni · 23-05-2018 08:17AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

There were 5 adoptions in Ireland last year. 5. It is not my responsibility to provide a baby for a couple who can’t one.

The idea is to avoid killing an unborn unnecessarily.

NuMarvel · 23-05-2018 08:17AM

Overheal wrote: »

Sad figures all sides agree as there are a disproportionate number of applicants looking to adopt. Adoption in Ireland should become a chief political issue in the near future to be redressed, though I don’t think it’s a panacea for replacing abortions.

There have been changes to improve our adoption laws by making it possible for married couples to put a child up for adoption, and to make it easier for children in long term foster care to be adopted. There are also further possible changes to our adoption laws on the way (see here for example), and changes last year.

But all that said, I don't think there's any correlation between adoption and abortion. The most effective way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the number of crisis pregnancies in the first place. And we do with education and improved access to contraception (and not just condoms either), and tackling socio-economic inequalities.

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 08:18AM

cournioni wrote: »

The idea is to avoid killing an unborn unnecessarily.

So your solution is force a woman to birth them and then put them in a system that doesnt work?

gmisk · 23-05-2018 08:19AM

defrule wrote: »

Weather forecast is very good on Friday. People likely won’t turn up.

I would have thought it would be the opposite?
If it was lashing some people wouldnt want to go out.

nullzero · 23-05-2018 08:19AM

Overheal wrote: »

Thinly veiled masks over personal attacks do not stop them from being personal attacks.

Keep going. You’re doing splendid. /s

You're doing the same thing, Jesus christ, are you for real?

neonsofa · 23-05-2018 08:20AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

There a die hard voters on either side, a herd of wild horses wouldn’t stop them from voting. Myself included.

Yeah I have a tonne of important things on this friday but ensuring that I'd be able to vote was top of my list. I don't think people would allow a bit of sun to take them away from something this serious. Maybe a few but not in the main.

NuMarvel · 23-05-2018 08:20AM

defrule wrote: »

Weather forecast is very good on Friday. People likely won’t turn up.

I recall hearing something similar before the marriage equality referendum, and that had the largest turnout ever for a referendum at 1.9 million people.

Cabaal · 23-05-2018 08:20AM

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think we passed peak crazy when Cora Sherlock posted a video to say she didn't pull out of the debate last night even though she was nowhere to be seen!

http://www.thejournal.ie/cora-sherlock-prime-time-4029067-May2018/

We must respect her CHOICE that she CHOOSE not to appear on RTE, it would be unfair for her to be forced to appear on RTE against her will. Equally it would be wrong for RTE to go to court to force her to appear on RTE.

She had a choice and she choose not to appear, we must respect this.

Remember when she used to carry around a podium challenging Harris to a debate?

.....thats what makes this so much funnier

frag420 · 23-05-2018 08:21AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

“The sign is placed in a privately owned field and is guarded by a large bull that is currently grazing in the field,” a spokesperson said.

Placing the bull in the field was seen as a necessity following the removal of the Benbulben sign at the weekend by pro abortion activists.

You couldn't make it up!!

#bullsforyes:D:D

gmisk · 23-05-2018 08:21AM

Cabaal wrote: »

We must respect her CHOICE that she CHOOSE not to appear on RTE, it would be unfair for her to be forced to appear on RTE against her will. Equally it would be wrong for RTE to go to court to force her to appear on RTE.

She had a choice and she choose not to appear, we must respect this.

Remember when she used to carry around a podium challenging Harris to a debate? .....thats what makes this so much funnier

Ha amazing!
Never seen that pic before.

PhoenixParker · 23-05-2018 08:23AM

cournioni wrote: »

The idea is to avoid killing an unborn unnecessarily.

If that's your aim your agenda would be best served by promoting long term reliable contraception, comprehensive sex education, improving maternity leave and pay, subsidising childcare and other policies championed by the countries with the lowest abortion rates.

defrule · 23-05-2018 08:23AM

gmisk wrote: »

I would have thought it would be the opposite?
If it was lashing some people wouldnt want to go out.

I’m thinking it’s like cleaning your room. You don’t do it on a good sunny day. You go out, sunbathe, picnic, beach etc...

The good weather will fuel the feel good factor that will reinforce the thought “ah sure, we’ll be grand, I’ll hardly make a difference if I stay out on this beach.”

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2018 08:23AM

cournioni wrote: »

The idea is to avoid killing an unborn unnecessarily.

That is a useful goal and one that is shared by people on both sides of the abortion issue. We pretty much all want less, ideally no, abortions to ever actually happen. And we should never lose sight of that common ground. We should in fact cherish it.

However there are two issues there.

The first is that no individual alone is the arbiter of what constitutes "necessary" and "unnecessary". We have to work together to establish such norms.

The second is that there are equally important goals we should also strive towards. Including the goal of not curtailing the freedom, choices and well being of sentient against "unnecessarily" (to use your word). And I would certainly suggest doing that in deference to a non-sentient entity as being not just slightly but ENTIRELY unnecessary. So we certainly need to look at those norms.

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 08:23AM

Overheal wrote: »

Adoption in Ireland should become a chief political issue in the near future to be redressed, though I don’t think it’s a panacea for replacing abortions.

Our adoption laws are based on the rights of the family as written in the Constitution. To change our laws to make adoption more widely available, we would need an amendment which would weaken the rights of birth parents in favour of adoptive parents.

And if we tried to weaken the Family in our Constitution, guess who would go completely mental?

Yes - the Catholic Church, Iona, John Waters and all the usual suspects.

Overheal · 23-05-2018 08:23AM

nullzero wrote: »

You're doing the same thing, Jesus christ, are you for real?

I haven’t insulted you at all, have I? You can clear this up with me in PM of you like; personally I think it’s unfair to keep derailing the thread, much less calling other people cretins et all behind a water thin veneer of “qualifying language.” Questions about the reality of Jesus Christ should be directed to the Christianity forum. Meanwhile, I was still wondering what hard evidence you were using to make generalizing claims (with or without “qualifying language”) about the risk to reproductive health of women who undergo abortions: specifically, which abortion procedures, how long the gestation is, etc etc etc.

seamus · 23-05-2018 08:23AM

Overheal wrote: »

Wouldn’t have known there was a legal definition but it makes sense it would be a requisite for establishing statutory law. Thanks for sharing.

It doesn't mention the word "sovereign", but one must meet those two requirements in order to be issued with a birth certificate, and therefore to be recognised as a person.

I'll admit that's a tiny bit facetious, since theoretically any baby born alive will get a birth cert regardless of gestational age or size. However since the youngest such birth in Ireland is 23 weeks and five days, it's an incredibly rare instance.

Nevertheless, the foetus in the womb is not a person until it is born, and if it is not born alive, it must meet the two criteria above to be legally recognised as having ever existed.

Overheal · 23-05-2018 08:24AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Our adoption laws are based on the rights of the family as written in the Constitution. To change our laws to make adoption more widely available, we would need an amendment which would weaken the rights of birth parents in favour of adoptive parents.

And if we tried to weaken the Family in our Constitution, guess who would go completely mental?

Yes - the Catholic Church, Iona, John Waters and all the usual suspects.

You Irish sure do love your amendments!

(No jokes about 2A please. I know. I know.)

Cabaal · 23-05-2018 08:25AM

gmisk wrote: »

Ha amazing!
Never seen that pic before.

Neither had i, just came across it on broadsheet.ie

Apparently she pulled this challenge nonsense several times, he called her bluff and she runs.......except now she claims she didn't run
:rolleyes:

You couldn't make this stuff up,

Between this and the no side opting out of tonights debate, it suggests the no side is in freefall and can't come to any further agreements on their positions.

I think they know they've lost this but we need to make sure we all get out and vote yes!

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 08:25AM

Cabaal wrote: »

We must respect her CHOICE that she CHOOSE not to appear on RTE, it would be unfair for her to be forced to appear on RTE against her will. Equally it would be wrong for RTE to go to court to force her to appear on RTE.

She had a choice and she choose not to appear, we must respect this.

Remember when she used to carry around a podium challenging Harris to a debate? .....thats what makes this so much funnier

That woman openly goaded Harris on Twitter into a debate. Said she was carrying her Love both podium around with her for whenever he was ready to debate her. Then she gets her debate and legs it. You couldn’t make it up.

neonsofa · 23-05-2018 08:25AM

defrule wrote: »

I’m thinking it’s like cleaning your room. You don’t do it on a good sunny day. You go out, sunbathe, picnic, beach etc...

The good weather will fuel the feel good factor that will reinforce the thought “ah sure, we’ll be grand, I’ll hardly make a difference if I stay out on this beach.”

Voting for human rights (whether you believe that involves just the foetus or the woman or whatever else) is not quite the same as the chore of cleaning your room.

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 08:26AM

defrule wrote: »

Weather forecast is very good on Friday. People likely won’t turn up.

Other way around - pissing rain discourages voters. Sunny weather and everyone is out and about.

gmisk · 23-05-2018 08:27AM

Cabaal wrote: »

we need to make sure we all get out and vote yes!

YES!
Voting is the most important thing!

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 08:27AM

frag420 wrote: »

“The sign is placed in a privately owned field and is guarded by a large bull that is currently grazing in the field,” a spokesperson said.

Placing the bull in the field was seen as a necessity following the removal of the Benbulben sign at the weekend by pro abortion activists.

You couldn't make it up!!

#bullsforyes:D:D

They mean the sign that seemed to have blown about the place, and was then removed by either Sligo CC, and Sligo 4 Life?

https://twitter.com/anniewestdotcom/status/997363283542921216/photo/1?tfw_site=Independent_ie&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Fabortion-referendum%2Fgiant-no-sign-on-iconic-ben-bulben-mountain-removed-36920146.html

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 08:28AM

cournioni wrote: »

The idea is to avoid killing an unborn unnecessarily.

That is your idea, your agenda.

I am more concerned with the pregnant woman. The unborn is not a person.

Overheal · 23-05-2018 08:28AM

seamus wrote: »

It doesn't mention the word "sovereign", but one must meet those two requirements in order to be issued with a birth certificate, and therefore to be recognised as a person.

I'll admit that's a tiny bit facetious, since theoretically any baby born alive will get a birth cert regardless of gestational age or size. However since the youngest such birth in Ireland is 23 weeks and five days, it's an incredibly rare instance.

Nevertheless, the foetus in the womb is not a person until it is born, and if it is not born alive, it must meet the two criteria above to be legally recognised as having ever existed.

Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying that too

gmisk · 23-05-2018 08:28AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Apparently she pulled this challenge nonsense several times, he called her bluff and she runs.......except now she claims she didn't run
:rolleyes:

What is she claiming?
Where was she?

Ah im not sure I give a toss at this stage, she has made herself a laughing stock.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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