The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Overheal · 21-05-2018 04:43PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

https://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13

You can watch the video called "The Silent Scream"

Load of bollocks with sped up footage etc.

“Many members of the medical community were critical of the film, describing it as misleading and deceptive. Richard Berkowitz, professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Mount Sinai Medical Center, described the film as "factually misleading and unfair".[4] John Hobbins of the Yale School of Medicine called the film's use of special effects deceptive, a form of "technical flimflam." He pointed out that the film of the ultrasound is initially run at slow speed, but that it is sped up when surgical instruments are introduced to give the impression that "the fetus is thrashing about in alarm." Hobbins questioned the titular "scream", noting that "the fetus spends lots of time with its mouth open", that the "scream" may have been a yawn, and also that "mouth" identified on the blurry ultrasound in the film may in fact have been the space between the fetal chin and chest.[4] Edward Myer, chairman of pediatrics at the University of Virginia stated that, at twelve weeks, the brain is not sufficiently developed for a fetus to be able to feel pain.[8] Similarly, Hart Peterson, chairman of pediatric neurology at the New York Hospital, stated that the "notion that a 12-week-old fetus is in discomfort is erroneous."[8]

Fetal development experts argued that, contrary to Nathanson's assertion in the film, a fetus cannot perceive danger or make purposeful movements. David Bodian, a neurobiologist at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, stated that doctors had no evidence that a twelve-week-old fetus could feel pain, but noted the possibility of a reflex movement by a fetus in response to external stimuli such as surgical instruments. The size of the ultrasound image and of the fetus model used was also misleading, appearing to show a fetus the size of a full-term baby, while in actuality a twelve-week-old fetus is under two inches long.[4] Jennifer Niebyl of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine said that what Nathanson described as the fetus recoiling from pain and seeking to escape is "strictly reflex activity" which Nathason made look purposeful by speeding up the film as the suction catheter was placed.[12] Fay Redwine of the VCU Medical Center stated "Any of us could show you the same image in a fetus who is not being aborted."[12]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silent_Scream

nullzero · 21-05-2018 04:44PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

People are allowed to be selfish. People are allowed to enjoy sex. The alternative you are peddling is unrealistic at best. If people stopped having recreational sex the population would plummet.

People do need to act a little more responsibly. Alcohol impares judgment and we all have had sexual experiences when drunk which aren't our finest moments.
The big issue with contraceptive pills is how easy it is to forget to take the bloody things. This isn't a means of heaping blame on women's shoulders) I can barely finish a course of antibiotics ffs, never mind take a pill at the same time everyday).
I think modern life is over sexualized particularly in relation to exposure of young people to graphic content etc... There are worse things you can catch from unsafe sex than an unwanted pregnancy which we seem to have forgotten having been so aware of stds in the 90's in particular. But I digress...

Yer Da sells Avon · 21-05-2018 04:46PM

pone2012 wrote: »

You're confusing sexual abstinence with abstinence solely from the act of intercourse...they are not the the same thing

You're confusing other people's business with your own.

jigglypuffstuff · 21-05-2018 04:48PM

erica74 wrote: »

But why can't people just have some sex? Why do we have to abstain?

Abstain if one does not wish to fall pregnant or risk it

Because the act of intercourse exists for the purpose of procreation. That is its function and everything else occuring from it cannot be accrued from other activities

So it's hypocritical to engage in an act that's for procreation when you don't want to procreate

Ave Sodalis · 21-05-2018 04:48PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for some simle answers.
At the moment I'm leaning towards No, but really I'm very much in the Undecided category.

When we last had the referendum I didn't vote. Myself and another male friend were of the opinion that this was very much a women's vote.
Since then, we both have had kids, and so it's more on our mind now.

Seeing a 12 week scan, and to have it grow into a child, puts far more perspective on the issue that the more care-free manner we had previously (just describing ourselves, not anyone else).

I can't imagine that abortions are without a huge deal of stress and mental trauma for women. Dealing with the procedure itself, the mental torture of deciding to go ahead with the operation, and coping with it long term.

Maybe there are some women who would see it as an handy opt-out if prevention doesn't work. I'd imagine this would be the extreme minority. From my experience, a man is a dad the day a child emerges, a women is a mom 9 months previously. It's something men don't fully understand (in my opinion).

So, to the questions.
Is this open to all women who seek an abortion up to the 12 weeks mark?

From reading about this, there is a wait period after consultation. Does that mean it could go beyond 12 weeks (i.e. consultation after 11 weeks and 6days, and then proceed with the abortion some time later)?

Does the father of the child/fetus have any say in the matter? i.e. if a women went ahead with the birth, then the father has some moral/legal obligations, some maybe should have a degree of consultation as well?

Any guidance would be appreciated. Not looking to get into a heated debate on the issue. I've two girls, so I'm trying to approach this from both sides of the fence in terms of knowing what they were after 12 weeks and should they ever need to avail of an abortion at some stage of their lives.

I see this as a tough decision to make, so again, any guidance is appreciated.

Yes, it is open to any woman up to 12 weeks. This is due to the inability to legislate for rape cases, the percentage of abortions performed at this point in other countries, and to bring us in line with the EU norm.

As far as I'm aware, the 72 hours needs to be within the 12 weeks (but open to correction on this)

Your last question is going to get differing answers, and they won't be affected by the 8th. I believe that the father should be consulted. This issue should be discussed, but the final decision is the woman's.

This is all provided that a) the referendum passes (which is dealing solely with repealing the 8th, and b) the legislation is passed in line with the current recommendation.

pone2012 wrote: »

Outercourse is 100% effective... again asking too much of people to engage in that regularly, yet abstain from THE ONE ACT which exclusively results in human procreation if they don't want to risk becoming pregnant

And look at the responses

This " me me me" narrative is typical of anything to get everything they want and little to no restraint or sacrifice for anyone other than themselves

It's just a sad reflection of the modern mindset in Ireland

Will you stop. You have absolutely no idea about the circumstances of posters here and of the people of Ireland. How dare you say something like what's in that post. You haven't got a clue about what I sacrifice on a daily basis, or how often I get what I want, nor do you know about anyone else here.

fxotoole · 21-05-2018 04:50PM

For all the posters attempting to use the Silent Scream to sway people, it’s complete bunk and propaganda from US pro-life organizations. Have a read of what the Medical Community think about it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silent_Scream

erica74 · 21-05-2018 04:51PM

It amazes me how the people pontificating about contraception are the ones who actually don't understand how it works.

Every form of contraception has a percentage failure rate. A woman is fertile for approx 35 years, that's 420 potentially fertilised eggs, even a 1% failure rate could mean 4 unplanned pregnancies in a woman's lifetime.

If contraception fails, it has nothing to do with the intelligence of the people using it, moreso the fact that no contraception is 100% effective and forms of contraception cannot be used together to add up to 100% effectiveness.
I actually think the No side's misinformation on contraception is part of the problem. Do you have children or friends who you are giving this incorrect and misleading "advice" to?

Bannasidhe · 21-05-2018 04:53PM

pone2012 wrote: »

You're confusing sexual abstinence with abstinence solely from the act of intercourse...they are not the the same thing

I'm not confusing any thing.
I can assure you I have some experience of sex without intercourse.

But, unlike you, I also understand that for the vast majority intercourse is not about reproduction, it is part and parcel of a healthy, loving relationship. In fact, in many places it is a requirement for a marriage to be 'legalised'.

It's simply not realistic to expect people to abstain from intercourse for pleasure until women have passed the age of fertility nor is it just that our Constitution may force people into this situation.

erica74 · 21-05-2018 04:54PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Abstain if one does not wish to fall pregnant or risk it

Because the act of intercourse exists for the purpose of procreation. That is its function and everything else occuring from it cannot be accrued from other activities

So it's hypocritical to engage in an act that's for procreation when you don't want to procreate

:pac: you're a gas character!

I have sex because it feels good and because I like it. My husband and I have sex because it is a bonding enjoyable experience for us. Isn't that crazy!!

nullzero · 21-05-2018 04:54PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Abstain if one does not wish to fall pregnant or risk it

Because the act of intercourse exists for the purpose of procreation. That is its function and everything else occuring from it cannot be accrued from other activities

So it's hypocritical to engage in an act that's for procreation when you don't want to procreate

The biological urge is stronger than the knowledge of the risk.
Contraception used correctly very rarely fails. According to this thread it's extremely unreliable, talk to a doctor to get the actual facts about it. A lot of modern pills need to be taken in a very regimented fashion and can fail if not taken exactly as prescribed. Nobody's perfect but it is a bit of a cop out to blame the contraceptive all the time, condoms rip all the time. Essentially use contraception and pull the hell out as well.

fxotoole · 21-05-2018 04:56PM

That AbortionFacts website seems to be run by right wing US Christian groups. If you’re gonna use that to back up your arguments, at least consider the source:

https://www.abortionfacts.com/donate

nullzero · 21-05-2018 04:56PM

erica74 wrote: »

It amazes me how the people pontificating about contraception are the ones who actually don't understand how it works.

Every form of contraception has a percentage failure rate. A woman is fertile for approx 35 years, that's 420 potentially fertilised eggs, even a 1% failure rate could mean 4 unplanned pregnancies in a woman's lifetime.

If contraception fails, it has nothing to do with the intelligence of the people using it, moreso the fact that no contraception is 100% effective and forms of contraception cannot be used together to add up to 100% effectiveness.
I actually think the No side's misinformation on contraception is part of the problem. Do you have children or friends who you are giving this incorrect and misleading "advice" to?

I don't think it's fair to say the users intelligence was being questioned.

erica74 · 21-05-2018 04:57PM

nullzero wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to say the users intelligence was being questioned.

I wasn't talking about that individual exchange. There has been many comments made about "stupid" women who don't understand or don't know how contraception works.

nullzero · 21-05-2018 04:58PM

erica74 wrote: »

I wasn't talking about that individual exchange. There has been many comments made about "stupid" women who don't understand or don't know how contraception works.

Why would you respond to such comments?

erica74 · 21-05-2018 04:59PM

nullzero wrote: »

Why would you respond to such comments?

Why not?

I'd question why I respond to half the nonsense on here but hey, I had some time.

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 05:00PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for some simle answers.
At the moment I'm leaning towards No, but really I'm very much in the Undecided category.

When we last had the referendum I didn't vote. Myself and another male friend were of the opinion that this was very much a women's vote.
Since then, we both have had kids, and so it's more on our mind now.

Seeing a 12 week scan, and to have it grow into a child, puts far more perspective on the issue that the more care-free manner we had previously (just describing ourselves, not anyone else).

I can't imagine that abortions are without a huge deal of stress and mental trauma for women. Dealing with the procedure itself, the mental torture of deciding to go ahead with the operation, and coping with it long term.

Maybe there are some women who would see it as an handy opt-out if prevention doesn't work. I'd imagine this would be the extreme minority. From my experience, a man is a dad the day a child emerges, a women is a mom 9 months previously. It's something men don't fully understand (in my opinion).

So, to the questions.
Is this open to all women who seek an abortion up to the 12 weeks mark?

From reading about this, there is a wait period after consultation. Does that mean it could go beyond 12 weeks (i.e. consultation after 11 weeks and 6days, and then proceed with the abortion some time later)?

Does the father of the child/fetus have any say in the matter? i.e. if a women went ahead with the birth, then the father has some moral/legal obligations, some maybe should have a degree of consultation as well?

Any guidance would be appreciated. Not looking to get into a heated debate on the issue. I've two girls, so I'm trying to approach this from both sides of the fence in terms of knowing what they were after 12 weeks and should they ever need to avail of an abortion at some stage of their lives.

I see this as a tough decision to make, so again, any guidance is appreciated.

Hi there, firstly well done for seeking clarification, it’s always good to know all the facts.
I’ll try to briefly answer your questions.

Firstly, this absolutely is a men’s matter as much as women. These laws could affect your wife or daughters in the future so you should have your say on the matter.

This will be a GP led service open to all women up to 12 weeks.
There will be a 72 hour reflection period after the initial consultation. After 72 hours, the woman can fulfil her description of two tablets.
These tablets induce a miscarriage and she will have a heavy bleed, not unlike a heavy period.

Legally, the mother doesn’t need to consult the father, but this is the current case as it stands.
Women are ordering pills online and travelling to the UK and don’t need the fathers permission.

The question Id ask you is this one.
If your daughter came to you, traumatised, devastated, pregnant as a teenager after her first fumble with her boyfriend, and wanted an abortion? What would you do?
You’d support her as best you could obviously, but if abortion was the only option, would you not prefer her to have it here, with the support of her family?
Or would you prefer she have to travel to another country during an already distressing time, away from her family, with the financial burden to boot?

If your wife was receiving cancer treatment and found out she was pregnant, would you like to have the option of a termination on the table, so she could continue treatment?
Or would you expect her to risk her life, leaving your daughters without a mum, to gestate the pregnancy? Or would you rather there was a choice?

I know these are unlikely scenarios that you will hopefully never have to face but they are unfortunately reality for other families.
These exact situations (and worse, the cases of FFA and rape which I won’t talk about, because it isn’t just about the hard cases) are happening to families in Ireland right now.

Abortion has always been in Ireland, a No vote won’t make it go away.
It will just remain unregulated and unsupervised and dangerous.
If it must happen, let it happen as early as possible with as much support from the woman’s family is as possible.

I urge you to read the ‘In Her Shoes’ Facebook page, it’s very helpful to see the real life situations this amendment has caused.

Best of luck with your research, I’m happy to answer any other questions you have here or over PM.

nullzero · 21-05-2018 05:03PM

erica74 wrote: »

Why not?

I'd question why I respond to half the nonsense on here but hey, I had some time.

I think you responded because it was easy to do so, shooting fish in a barrel typically is.

Wrongway1985 · 21-05-2018 05:03PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

I realise that contraception is not 100% effective. However, when used correctly, I believe it is very effective. I'm not sure exactly what the figures are but I believe it is about 99% if not more. The women who are unlucky enough to find themselves pregnant as a result of failed contraception are tiny. We should not change our laws so radically to deal with this very rare occurrence.

You are casually replacing facts on contraception effectiveness with your "beliefs"

It isn't radical at all, tell me the developed countries you may attend where women opting for terminations will be turned away by their health services??

4000 women per year deemed by you to have been "unlucky" by becoming pregnant (some with much wanted children) is that such a rare figure? You allow them to travel to be looked after elsewhere and don't enforce the law when it's common knowledge around 1000 of these women are using abortion pills what's your solution?

A safer option to these inevitable terminations is the most logical answer. What is the alternative?

jigglypuffstuff · 21-05-2018 05:04PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Yes, it is open to any woman up to 12 weeks. This is due to the inability to legislate for rape cases, the percentage of abortions performed at this point in other countries, and to bring us in line with the EU norm.

As far as I'm aware, the 72 hours needs to be within the 12 weeks (but open to correction on this)

Your last question is going to get differing answers, and they won't be affected by the 8th. I believe that the father should be consulted. This issue should be discussed, but the final decision is the woman's.

This is all provided that a) the referendum passes (which is dealing solely with repealing the 8th, and b) the legislation is passed in line with the current recommendation.

Will you stop. You have absolutely no idea about the circumstances of posters here and of the people of Ireland. How dare you say something like what's in that post. You haven't got a clue about what I sacrifice on a daily basis, or how often I get what I want, nor do you know about anyone else here.

Oh but I do dare, and please find a Safe space if my words offend you , or if you wish become like the snowflakes who cannot discuss issues that don't align with their worldview by simply not responding or crying offended

I have every idea because I live here and I read and listen to everything about this debate and apart from the medical/hard cases....the majority of what I do hear is excuses for convience cases.. and these are all me me me egocentric narratives which are very reflective of a persons mindset and character

And I will remind you I entered this conversation when a poster literally mention the epitome of that... which was financial reasons.

So in response to your how dare I, I do dare... and the two things you can do about it are #1 nothing #2 like it

21-05-2018 05:05PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Abstain if one does not wish to fall pregnant or risk it

Because the act of intercourse exists for the purpose of procreation. That is its function and everything else occuring from it cannot be accrued from other activities

So it's hypocritical to engage in an act that's for procreation when you don't want to procreate

I understand that the RCC taught us all this when we were children. I know they tried to brainwash us, however, you can have sex in a loving healthy relationship without wanting children. This is allowed, no matter what the priests & nuns told ya!

neonsofa · 21-05-2018 05:07PM

erica74 wrote: »

I wasn't talking about that individual exchange. There has been many comments made about "stupid" women who don't understand or don't know how contraception works.

And I'd say that a lot of those that are just too stupid and "silly" are probably teenagers who feel invincible and think itll never happen to them, who are A) too silly to be parents and

the children who the no side are claiming to love and want to protect. The silly teenagers don't deserve compassion, only babies. I wonder where the cut off point for compassion is. When does it become ok to force pregnancy and parenthood onto the children they claim to care for.

Bannasidhe · 21-05-2018 05:07PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Oh but I do dare, and please find a Safe space if my words offend you , or if you wish become like the snowflakes who cannot discuss issues that don't align with their worldview by simply not responding or crying offended

Careful there. You're looking a bit triggered.

Ave Sodalis · 21-05-2018 05:07PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Oh but I do dare, and please find a Safe space if my words offend you , or if you wish become like the snowflakes who cannot discuss issues that don't align with their worldview by simply not responding or crying offended

Well aren't you great :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I have every idea because I live here and I read and listen to everything about this debate and apart from the medical/hard cases....the majority of what I do hear is excuses for convience cases.. and these are all me me me egocentric narratives which are very reflective of a persons mindset and character

Is it really?

And I will remind you I entered this conversation when a poster literally mention the epitome of that... which was financial reasons.

So?

So in response to your how dare I, I do dare... and the two things you can do about it are #1 nothing #2 like it

So edgy. I bet you even think you hold some sort of moral highground.

jigglypuffstuff · 21-05-2018 05:10PM

erica74 wrote: »

:pac: you're a gas character!

I have sex because it feels good and because I like it. My husband and I have sex because it is a bonding enjoyable experience for us. Isn't that crazy!!

So you engage in sexual intercourse solely for s side effect and ignore its primary purpose?

Yeah I'd put that up there with crazy.... right beside eating when you're not even hungry because you like the taste, or hunting and killing an animal not for food, but because "you like it "

Yes I tend not to do agree with that "slave to the senses" mentality...it's quite problematic

freshpopcorn · 21-05-2018 05:11PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Is this open to all women who seek an abortion up to the 12 weeks mark?

From reading about this, there is a wait period after consultation. Does that mean it could go beyond 12 weeks (i.e. consultation after 11 weeks and 6days, and then proceed with the abortion some time later)?

Does the father of the child/fetus have any say in the matter? i.e. if a women went ahead with the birth, then the father has some moral/legal obligations, some maybe should have a degree of consultation as well?

.

My answer to your first question is Yes abortion is open to everybody up to twelve weeks. There is something about three day cooling off period being mentioned.
From my understanding in some cases of fetal fatal abnormality it will be allowed upto 24 weeks!
The limit being proposed is twelve weeks. So in years to come a future government could extend this limit but we might also discover a very effective method of contraceptive which could nearly end abortion apart from rare cases.
Father has no say. This will always be the case.(I think) Working on father rights to access to children is a different matter tough.

Now please clarify anything I've said. This is to the best of my knowledge!

Bredabe · 21-05-2018 05:12PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Abstain if one does not wish to fall pregnant or risk it

Because the act of intercourse exists for the purpose of procreation. That is its function and everything else occuring from it cannot be accrued from other activities

So it's hypocritical to engage in an act that's for procreation when you don't want to procreate

I was 'prescribed' sexual release by health professionals for everything from tummy cramp to teeth grinding. Its obviously not just for procreation or it wouldn't be designed to be such a great stress reliever.

Nollog · 21-05-2018 05:13PM

I didn't get my voting card. I checked the register late last month, I was on there. I just checked it there now and it's saying I'm not found.

Anything I can do to get my vote now?

fxotoole · 21-05-2018 05:15PM

Pone2012 - may I ask what your feelings are on oral sex? Since it’s purely for pleasure and not for procreational purposes, like?

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 05:15PM

pone2012 wrote: »

So you engage in sexual intercourse solely for s side effect and ignore its primary purpose?

Yeah I'd put that up there with crazy.... right beside eating when you're not even hungry because you like the taste, or hunting and killing an animal not for food, but because "you like it "

Yes I tend not to do agree with that "slave to the senses" mentality...it's quite problematic

Imagine having sex with the person you love for the fun of it, to show your affection and bond as a couple. The absolute insanity of it! Who would do such a thing!

Ave Sodalis · 21-05-2018 05:18PM

/\/ollog wrote:

Anything I can do to get my vote now?

If you're definitely on the register, just take ID such as a passport. Afaik, that should be enough.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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