The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Monkey09 · 21-05-2018 02:18PM

The morning after pill is effective up to 5 days. I can't understand why a rape victim shouldn't avail of this option. The vast majority of abortions which take place in the UK are on healthy women with healthy babies. Only 27% of rape victims choose to abort. Therefore most women who obtain an abortion are doing so for economic or convenience reasons. That to me, is not right. If I decided to end someone's life tomorrow because they had become an inconvenience, there would be a major problem but just because it is an unborn baby in this situation, it is not worthy of protection.

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2018 02:18PM

Mr.H wrote: »

I know one girl in particular who has had an abortion because it just didn't suit her lifestyle. The same girl doesn't like condoms because they don't feel great. She also doesn't want to be on the pill or use a bar. She is a long time friend of mine and I love her to bits. But she is a complete idiot. Use no protection means it's only a matter of time. This is the wrong use of abortion. Might be OK to some people and I am OK with that point of view. But that's where my slight reservations come from.

I want to return to this a moment. Forgive me if someone else asked similar in the meantime.

If your friend, who you love, comes to you tomorrow because she is pregnant again and wants to travel for a termination, would you help her?

If she were upset and frightened but convinced she needed a termination, but for some reason be it financial or practical- say she needs a lift to the airport or someone to travel with her to ensure she can come back home safely- she needs your help to proceed. Will you help her or will you refuse her?

Let's go further, if it should turn out she does not have the means to travel, should your friend therefore be forced to bring the baby to term?

Ave Sodalis · 21-05-2018 02:20PM

Monkey09 wrote:

The morning after pill is effective up to 5 days. I can't understand why a rape victim shouldn't avail of this option. The vast majority of abortions which take place in the UK are on healthy women with healthy babies. Only 27% of rape victims choose to abort. Therefore most women who obtain an abortion are doing so for economic or convenience reasons. That to me, is not right. If I decided to end someone's life tomorrow because they had become an inconvenience, there would be a major problem but just because it is an unborn baby in this situation, it is not worthy of protection.

The MAP does not work after you ovulate, and has decreasing levels of effectiveness as time goes on.

Bannasidhe · 21-05-2018 02:20PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

And what input should men have, if any, in the debate? Men still have the vote. If a man's child is aborted against his will...tough sh*t basically i suppose.

Men have the option to support women's right to determine whether or not they wish to be pregnant and all that entails and to state that being pregnant should not be the determining factor in what kind of health care a woman receives.
Men have the option to say to a rape victim that their body does not have to endure further trauma against their will.
Men have the option to support women in ending a pregnancy when their is no hope of a baby at the end of it.
Men have the option to trust their wives, girlfriends, sisters, nieces, aunts, colleagues, mothers to decide what is best for themselves

Men also have the option to vote to keep the current situation.

Tough sh*t on women that it's not men who get pregnant eh.

nullzero · 21-05-2018 02:21PM

January wrote: »

My husband is adopted. He struggles a lot with his feelings about being unwanted by his birth mother. People should have the choice of whether they want to go through with the pregnancy and adopt or not. It shouldn't be mandatory and there should be alternatives available. My husband is pro-choice.

Do you feel grateful to his mother for having carried him and given birth to him?

kylith · 21-05-2018 02:21PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

A lot of women are angry, we've been discussed and debated and shamed and judged for making personal decisions that have nothing to do with anyone else.

And what input should men have, if any, in the debate? Men still have the vote. If a man's child isu aborted against his will...tough sh*t basically i suppose.

Until it can be transplanted into his body to gestate, i’m Afraid so.

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2018 02:21PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

The morning after pill is effective up to 5 days. I can't understand why a rape victim shouldn't avail of this option. The vast majority of abortions which take place in the UK are on healthy women with healthy babies. Only 27% of rape victims choose to abort. Therefore most women who obtain an abortion are doing so for economic or convenience reasons. That to me, is not right. If I decided to end someone's life tomorrow because they had become an inconvenience, there would be a major problem but just because it is an unborn baby in this situation, it is not worthy of protection.

Nobody is getting an abortion because having a child would be an inconvenience. Do you hear yourself? How could carrying a a pregnancy for 40 weeks, giving birth and then either giving the child up for adoption- or else raising them- ever be considered something so trivial as an "inconvenience"?

I can only assume you have not been meaningfully close to anyone who has done any of the above.

suicide_circus · 21-05-2018 02:21PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Everyone has a voice in the debate but when it comes down to the actual procedure that's between the woman and her doctor.

And its at that point that a lot of men will pause and think about unrestricted purely choice based non life threatening/rape etc situations. But it's just the inescapable biologocal reality that men rely on women to protect and nurture their children in utero so I suppose it really is just tough sh*t.

On a side note, hopefully after Friday we won't have to see those ghastly repeal tops any more.

Calina · 21-05-2018 02:22PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

A lot of women are angry, we've been discussed and debated and shamed and judged for making personal decisions that have nothing to do with anyone else.

And what input should men have, if any, in the debate? Men still have the vote. If a man's child is aborted against his will...tough sh*t basically i suppose.

What men could do is start recognising that a) they don't know what it feels like to be pregnant and never will and b) listening to those who can and will is a good start.

The 8th amendment is not just a problem in terms of wanting or not to be pregnant. It has ramifications in terms of healthcare and access to pharmaceuticals not just when pregnant but 'just in case' and people who have other illnesses.

It is in its own right, bad law. There was a perfectly adequate ban on abortion on the books from 1869. We did not need it and it has created all the hard cases. Even if you vote to repeal, the 2013 legislation remains in force and continues to broadly ban terminations. There was no need for it to go into the constitution and since it has it a) legalised abortion and b) created the hard cases.

If men don't want women to get abortions, then perhaps they should discuss parenting before having sex.

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 02:23PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

The morning after pill is effective up to 5 days. I can't understand why a rape victim shouldn't avail of this option. The vast majority of abortions which take place in the UK are on healthy women with healthy babies. Only 27% of rape victims choose to abort.
Therefore most women who obtain an abortion are doing so for economic or convenience reasons. That to me, is not right. If I decided to end someone's life tomorrow because they had become an inconvenience, there would be a major problem but just because it is an unborn baby in this situation, it is not worthy of protection.

How dare you. Who are you to say what a woman should or would do after having her body violated in the most traumatic way?
When you're talking objectively of course its easy to say she should get the MAP. In practice it isn't that straightforward and there isn't a "one size fits all" guidebook to dealing with a rape.

Doing it for economic reasons is perfectly acceptable to me - why bring a child you can't afford into a life of poverty?

As for the bolded, the difference is that the unborn are not citizens and are not afforded the same rights as living born people. Killing people, actual born people, is illegal and heavily punished pretty much worldwide.
Yet most countries, particularly progressive ones, have legalised abortion.
What does that tell you?

Monkey09 · 21-05-2018 02:23PM

spookwoman wrote: »

So forcing a woman to have a child against her will is not going to affect her physical and mental health?

If a woman doesn't want to have a child, she should use contraception. If this contraception fails, it doesn't give her the right to kill another human being. If she doesn't wish to be a parent, she should chose adoption and bring a little bit of happiness to one of the thousands of couples who are desperate for a child.

eviltwin · 21-05-2018 02:23PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

And its at that point that a lot of men will pause and think about unrestricted purely choice based non life threatening/rape etc situations. But it's just the inescapable biologocal reality that men rely on women to protect and nurture their children in utero so I suppose it really is just tough sh*t.

On a side note, hopefully after Friday we won't have to see those ghastly repeal tops any more.

sadly it is, unless you think a man should have more of a say on a pregnancy that the woman who has to endure it?

Leroy42 · 21-05-2018 02:24PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

If a woman doesn't want to have a child, she should use contraception. If this contraception fails, it doesn't give her the right to kill another human being. If she doesn't wish to be a parent, she should chose adoption and bring a little bit of happiness to one of the thousands of couples who are desperate for a child.

And if she is raped or the contraception doesn't work?

Do you think it fair to force a man to give up a kidney for transplant, even if that may effect his quality of life?

Captain Flaps · 21-05-2018 02:24PM

Folks, several pro-life pages are all advising their users to go get into arguments with repealers in the comment sections of major publications, stands to reason they'd be here too. I would humbly suggest that Mr H is being disingenuous claiming they're voting yes whilst trying to dismantle arguments in favour of repeal. Don't waste your time.

I could be wrong, apologies if I am. If you're all voting yes your efforts are better spent trying to change others' minds, not arguing with people who are (supposedly) on the same side as you.

Ave Sodalis · 21-05-2018 02:24PM

Monkey09 wrote:

If a woman doesn't want to have a child, she should use contraception. If this contraception fails, it doesn't give her the right to kill another human being. If she doesn't wish to be a parent, she should chose adoption and bring a little bit of happiness to one of the thousands of couples who are desperate for a child.

Then the thousands of couples should consider adopting one of the thousands of children in foster care already.

Bannasidhe · 21-05-2018 02:25PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

But it's just the inescapable biologocal reality that men rely on women to protect and nurture their children in utero so I suppose it really is just tough sh*t.

.

Their children?

Did you mean that to sound like a woman is merely the means of production of a man's child?

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 02:25PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

If a woman doesn't want to have a child, she should use contraception. If this contraception fails, it doesn't give her the right to kill another human being. If she doesn't wish to be a parent, she should chose adoption and bring a little bit of happiness to one of the thousands of couples who are desperate for a child.

Read the FAQ's on the 1st page of the thread please.
I genuinely get a twitch every time some genius offers up adoption as some sort of nugget of brilliance that nobody thought of before.

January · 21-05-2018 02:25PM

nullzero wrote: »

Do you feel grateful to his mother for having carried him and given birth to him?

No... I feel nothing towards her, I don't know her, I don't know her story, I don't know whether she was forced to adopt or not, I don't know that she probably wanted to abort but couldn't (he's pre-1983 so the 8th didn't save him, that's for sure).

I feel grateful to his adopted parents for raising him into the amazing man he is today but towards anyone else.

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2018 02:26PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

And what input should men have, if any, in the debate? Men still have the vote. If a man's child is aborted against his will...tough sh*t basically i suppose.

What's the alternative? Give the father veto power over the mother's choice? How would that work without being basically barbaric?

suicide_circus · 21-05-2018 02:26PM

Calina wrote: »

. If men don't want women to get abortions, then perhaps they should discuss parenting before having sex.

Taking responsibility for ones actions you mean? that's dangerous ground, no? Although I suppose an abortion is taking responsibility in a grim kind of way. I'm talking purely choice based here, not rape/life threatening etc.

....... · 21-05-2018 02:26PM

This post has been deleted.

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2018 02:27PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

If a woman doesn't want to have a child, she should use contraception. If this contraception fails, it doesn't give her the right to kill another human being. If she doesn't wish to be a parent, she should chose adoption and bring a little bit of happiness to one of the thousands of couples who are desperate for a child.

How many have you adopted?

suicide_circus · 21-05-2018 02:28PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Their children?

Did you mean that to sound like a woman is merely the means of production of a man's child?

Well I would say that in having the abortion (on choice grounds) the woman would be addicating her parenthood.

suicide_circus · 21-05-2018 02:29PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

What's the alternative? Give the father veto power over the mother's choice? How would that work without being basically barbaric?

Yeah there is no way round it I freely admit that.

nullzero · 21-05-2018 02:30PM

January wrote: »

No... I feel nothing towards her, I don't know her, I don't know her story, I don't know whether she was forced to adopt or not, I don't know that she probably wanted to abort but couldn't (he's pre-1983 so the 8th didn't save him, that's for sure).

I feel grateful to his adopted parents for raising him into the amazing man he is today but towards anyone else.

So she isn't an important part of your life, but your husband is?

spookwoman · 21-05-2018 02:31PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

If a woman doesn't want to have a child, she should use contraception. If this contraception fails, it doesn't give her the right to kill another human being. If she doesn't wish to be a parent, she should chose adoption and bring a little bit of happiness to one of the thousands of couples who are desperate for a child.

You have been told contraception is not 100% and if it fails and gets pregnant it can still affect her physical and metal health.
Adoption is still forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to be pregnant.
Forcing a person to go through hell which could affect them for the rest of their life is ok so someone else can have a little bit of happiness are you for real?

Monkey09 · 21-05-2018 02:31PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

How dare you. Who are you to say what a woman should or would do after having her body violated in the most traumatic way?
When you're talking objectively of course its easy to say she should get the MAP. In practice it isn't that straightforward and there isn't a "one size fits all" guidebook to dealing with a rape.

Doing it for economic reasons is perfectly acceptable to me - why bring a child you can't afford into a life of poverty?

As for the bolded, the difference is that the unborn are not citizens and are not afforded the same rights as living born people. Killing people, actual born people, is illegal and heavily punished pretty much worldwide.
Yet most countries, particularly progressive ones, have legalised abortion.
What does that tell you?

How dare I? So expressing my opinion is not allowed now? Laws are in place to ensure people behave in a certain way. For example, there are laws which make it illegal to drink and drive. Are u saying that the people who enacted this law have no right to restrict people from drinking and drinking, if they wish to do so? I have utmost sympathy for any woman who is raped. She deserves every support. However, the baby she is carrying has committed no crime. It should not be forced to pay for it's father's crime.

I disagree with your argument that an unborn baby is not actually a person. At 12 weeks, the baby has a heartbeat, all vital organs, can move, yawn and suck. It deserves the protection of the law.

Cupcake_Crisis · 21-05-2018 02:32PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

And its at that point that a lot of men will pause and think about unrestricted purely choice based non life threatening/rape etc situations. But it's just the inescapable biologocal reality that men rely on women to protect and nurture their children in utero so I suppose it really is just tough sh*t.

On a side note, hopefully after Friday we won't have to see those ghastly repeal tops any more.

Out of curiosity, what’s your stance on men who opt out of parenthood? You know the ones who get women pregnant and decide they want absolutely nothing got to do it, abandon the woman and do everything in their power to avoid contributing to the child’s upbringing?

Calina · 21-05-2018 02:34PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

. If men don't want women to get abortions, then perhaps they should discuss parenting before having sex.

Taking responsibility for ones actions you mean? that's dangerous ground, no? Although I suppose an abortion is taking responsibility in a grim kind of way. I'm talking purely choice based here, not rape/life threatening etc.

Dealing with the rape/health/FFA cases requires the 8th amendment to be removed. So you cannot remove those cases from a discussion on this referendum in all honesty.

However, I am all for discussing the question of parenthood in advance. My experience of a lot of Irish men is that they just want to get laid. Pregnancy isn't their problem and they (at that point) didn't want to be trapped with kids.

I have often wondered how fast the laws would change if women in Ireland went on strike and refused to have sex until the laws were changed.

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2018 02:34PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Taking responsibility for ones actions you mean? that's dangerous ground, no? Although I suppose an abortion is taking responsibility in a grim kind of way. I'm talking purely choice based here, not rape/life threatening etc.

How do you take responsibility when the law offers you only one path? Moral responsibility requires choice. So that the outcome- be it a good birth, a bad birth, a good termination or a bad one- is an accepted result of the decision made by the person. They are responsible. Otherwise whatever happens are just consequences of obeying the law, and nobody is responsible.

That is what you want- a world in which awful things sometimes happen, but we content ourselves that at least it isn't anyone's fault.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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