Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

awec · 21-05-2018 07:49AM

bilston wrote: »

We need a LH, and out half and a back three player. I suppose a lot depends on Payne's future.

I've no idea where we will get a LH from but if Carbery doesn't come then I'd be investigating the idea of bringing CL back from Australia if he doesn't make the Qantas team this summer. I'm not sure that the IRFU would sanction it though. But the point is he'd be coming as a 12/15 (I think he can play 15?) who can back up McPhillips at 10, rather than coming to be first choice 10.

To be honest, unless deals have been done, I don't think it will be easy bringing anyone in at this stage.

I'd maybe added Matthew Agnew to the back row options next season, although I don't think he is in the Academy at the moment. Curtis Jnr may be a scrum half option at some stage as Well?

Payne has retired. Yet to be announced, but it’s done.

Will be a coach next year.

Burkie1203 · 21-05-2018 08:28AM

https://twitter.com/markbro20064199/status/998474076032262144?s=19

prawnsambo · 21-05-2018 08:53AM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/markbro20064199/status/998474076032262144?s=19

Donald Trump has started following Ulster? :eek:

bilston · 21-05-2018 09:06AM

stephen_n wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

We need a LH, and out half and a back three player. I suppose a lot depends on Payne's future.

I've no idea where we will get a LH from but if Carbery doesn't come then I'd be investigating the idea of bringing CL back from Australia if he doesn't make the Qantas team this summer. I'm not sure that the IRFU would sanction it though. But the point is he'd be coming as a 12/15 (I think he can play 15?) who can back up McPhillips at 10, rather than coming to be first choice 10.

To be honest, unless deals have been done, I don't think it will be easy bringing anyone in at this stage.

I'd maybe added Matthew Agnew to the back row options next season, although I don't think he is in the Academy at the moment. Curtis Jnr may be a scrum half option at some stage as Well?

Will someone of CL’s standard be prepared to come in as a benchwarmer though?

He wouldn't be a benchwarmer. He'd be starting at 10/12/15.

bilston · 21-05-2018 09:07AM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/markbro20064199/status/998474076032262144?s=19

Who is Mark Brown?

Former Former · 21-05-2018 09:20AM

bilston wrote: »

He wouldn't be a benchwarmer. He'd be starting at 10/12/15.

That's the problem though. You sign someone like Lealiifano and he's going to start. So neither Carbery nor McPhillips is getting any game time, in a World Cup year. That would be absolutely criminal and the IRFU can't allow that to happen.

Unless Ulster sign an absolute duffer whose only redeeming quality is the ability to fill a jersey and convert oxygen to CO2 and who presents no threat to McPhillips, they'll have to sign an IQ out-half.

Utah_Saint · 21-05-2018 09:53AM

Former Former wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

He wouldn't be a benchwarmer. He'd be starting at 10/12/15.

That's the problem though. You sign someone like Lealiifano and he's going to start. So neither Carbery nor McPhillips is getting any game time, in a World Cup year. That would be absolutely criminal and the IRFU can't allow that to happen.

Unless Ulster sign an absolute duffer whose only redeeming quality is the ability to fill a jersey and convert oxygen to CO2 and who presents no threat to McPhillips, they'll have to sign an IQ out-half.

Carbery?

bilston · 21-05-2018 09:55AM

Former Former wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

He wouldn't be a benchwarmer. He'd be starting at 10/12/15.

That's the problem though. You sign someone like Lealiifano and he's going to start. So neither Carbery nor McPhillips is getting any game time, in a World Cup year. That would be absolutely criminal and the IRFU can't allow that to happen.

Unless Ulster sign an absolute duffer whose only redeeming quality is the ability to fill a jersey and convert oxygen to CO2 and who presents no threat to McPhillips, they'll have to sign an IQ out-half.

He wouldn't be signed as a 10, he'd be signed as a 12 who can provide back up to McPhillips at 10. The fact he can also (I think) play 15 means that over the season McCloskey is still getting plenty of gametime.

Personally I'm happy to take Carbery, just not at the expense of McPhillips development. But then Ireland comes first.

bilston · 21-05-2018 09:59AM

It's interesting that in the whole will he won't he saga regarding Carbery that the forgotten man (outside Ulster) has been McPhillips.

I wonder if his performances have surprised even Joe a little bit. If your stick McPhillips behind what on paper should be a much stronger Ulster pack next season might we suddenly have a potential WC bolter on our hands?

stephen_n · 21-05-2018 10:23AM

bilston wrote: »

He wouldn't be a benchwarmer. He'd be starting at 10/12/15.

But if he’s starting at 10, it’s at the expense of McPhillips at 12 it’s McCloskey. I’m just talking about the bigger games there. If CL came back, I’d imagine McPhillips would end up getting about as much game time as last season, which wouldn’t be good for him or Ulster.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 21-05-2018 11:15AM

stephen_n wrote: »

But if he’s starting at 10, it’s at the expense of McPhillips at 12 it’s McCloskey. I’m just talking about the bigger games there. If CL came back, I’d imagine McPhillips would end up getting about as much game time as last season, which wouldn’t be good for him or Ulster.

I'd be happier with a 15 who can cover 10 than a 12 who can do so.

Squidgy Black · 21-05-2018 11:17AM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I'd be happier with a 15 who can cover 10 than a 12 who can do so.

Hmmmm I wonder where you'd find someone who's been playing 15 and covering 10 also.

wp_rathead · 21-05-2018 11:21AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Hmmmm I wonder where you'd find someone who's been playing 15 and covering 10 also.

Haha imagine Joey goes North and he's played 15

Former Former · 21-05-2018 11:27AM

wp_rathead wrote: »

Haha imagine Joey goes North and he's played 15

That would be just fine IMO.

If Carbery goes north and can't displace McPhillips, then at least we know that he's not good enough. It's one thing not to be able to displace Sexton, but if he can't displace McPhillips, well that's all we'd need to know.

As things stand, we just don't know how good Carbery is or can be. We don't really know how good McPhillips is either.

But Joe seems to see a lot in Carbery and he has to do something to bring him along ahead of September 2018.

McPhillips, Ulster, Ulster fans, everything else takes a back seat. That is how it has to be. Ulster simply cannot sign anyone at 10 who is not Irish qualified.

BTW. John Cooney is Ulster's player of the year and he never had half the talent or potential of Carbery, but getting regular game time in meaningful matches was the making of him.

Utah_Saint · 21-05-2018 11:29AM

Former Former wrote: »

wp_rathead wrote: »

Haha imagine Joey goes North and he's played 15

That would be just fine IMO.

If Carbery goes north and can't displace McPhillips, then at least we know that he's not good enough. It's one thing not to be able to displace Sexton, but if he can't displace McPhillips, well that's all we'd need to know.

As things stand, we just don't know how good Carbery is or can be. We don't really know how good McPhillips is either.

But Joe seems to see a lot in Carbery and he has to do something to bring him along ahead of September 2018.

McPhillips, Ulster, Ulster fans, everything else takes a back seat. That is how it has to be. Ulster simply cannot sign anyone at 10 who is not Irish qualified.

Joey can't displace Byrne either....

Former Former · 21-05-2018 11:31AM

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Joey can't displace Byrne either....

Well, that's unclear, but even if it is the case, it's all the more reason to send him north.

awec · 21-05-2018 11:33AM

Former Former wrote: »

That would be just fine IMO.

If Carbery goes north and can't displace McPhillips, then at least we know that he's not good enough. It's one thing not to be able to displace Sexton, but if he can't displace McPhillips, well that's all we'd need to know.

As things stand, we just don't know how good Carbery is or can be. We don't really know how good McPhillips is either.

But Joe seems to see a lot in Carbery and he has to do something to bring him along ahead of September 2018.

McPhillips, Ulster, Ulster fans, everything else takes a back seat. That is how it has to be. Ulster simply cannot sign anyone at 10 who is not Irish qualified.

BTW. John Cooney is Ulster's player of the year and he never had half the talent or potential of Carbery.

Does he?

If we are honest, Joey Carbery would probably have zero Irish caps if it were not for Paddy Jackson's off field issues. The guy certainly has something about him, and the hype is definitely there, but it's not really based on a whole lot of substance.

Former Former · 21-05-2018 11:40AM

awec wrote: »

Does he?

If we are honest, Joey Carbery would probably have zero Irish caps if it were not for Paddy Jackson's off field issues. The guy certainly has something about him, and the hype is definitely there, but it's not really based on a whole lot of substance.

But Jackson's off-field issues aren't going away between now and September 2019, so we have to play the hand we've been dealt. It's like saying Jackson wouldn't have as many caps if Madigan hadn't moved abroad, it's just the way of things.

Yes, Joe does see a lot in Carbery. He wouldn't be (allegedly) driving this move if he didn't.

I agree we've very little hard evidence to go on, but I do know that a) Joe is a better judge of players than us and b) he's a much better judge of players than anyone at Ulster. If he thinks this is worthwhile, I think he's earned the right to move on it.

launish116 · 21-05-2018 11:48AM

Really don’t think this move is good for Ulster! Still think he’ll take Munster and I wouldn’t blame him.

Eod100 · 21-05-2018 11:50AM

awec wrote: »

Does he?

If we are honest, Joey Carbery would probably have zero Irish caps if it were not for Paddy Jackson's off field issues. The guy certainly has something about him, and the hype is definitely there, but it's not really based on a whole lot of substance.

Yeah that issue is a bit of a moot point. He's the 2nd choice at this stage and whether that's due to other circumstances is just the way it is.

Agree on the hype thing but maybe it goes back to the ''you're never as good as they say you are or never as bad either'' mantra. I think at times some in media and some fans can swing wildly from hyping up player X and saying player Y is awful.

I do think Carberry is a decent player, some of the breaks he's made in games have been brilliant. Whether he has all the required skills to be an out and out 10 is another thing but I don't think he will develop fully behind Sexton as for one he's brought into Irish camp anytime Sexton is called in also, so doesn't get the benefit of starting games when JS is on international duty.

irishbucsfan · 21-05-2018 11:53AM

Ulster need an experienced 10 for depth. Keatley ticks that box, Carbery does not. Many NIQs tick that box also. They absolutely need someone anyway.

The double switch makes most sense to me. An NIQ signing makes sense after that.

Eod100 · 21-05-2018 11:55AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ulster need an experienced 10 for depth. Keatley ticks that box, Carbery does not. Many NIQs tick that box also. They absolutely need someone anyway.

The double switch makes most sense to me. An NIQ signing makes sense after that.

So Keatley to Ulster and Carberry to Munster? Whatever about 1 of those happening, chances of both seem slim..

irishbucsfan · 21-05-2018 11:57AM

Eod100 wrote: »

So Keatley to Ulster and Carberry to Munster? Whatever about 1 of those happening, chances of both seem slim..

Right, but it’s a current rumour

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/provincial-switch-deal-see-carbery-go-new-province-not-ulster/

Eod100 · 21-05-2018 12:05PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Right, but it’s a current rumour

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/provincial-switch-deal-see-carbery-go-new-province-not-ulster/

It's an interesting one. Don't know much about Carberry or Keatley's contracts is there some 'flexibility' about going to another province? Presume both are currently contracted to their current provinces..

awec · 21-05-2018 12:13PM

Yes. McPhillips and Carbery just leaves us with two inexperienced 10s of a very similar standard. McPhillips isn't going to learn much from Carbery and vice versa.

Keatley would be a fairly mediocre signing but he might be a better signing than Carbery. Though the thoughts of actually signing Ian Keatley just depresses me.

Squidgy Black · 21-05-2018 12:17PM

Has Keatley proven to be a good mentor for anyone though, I know he's experienced and all but have any 10s that've been in the same team as him actually improved from when they joined Munster? I mean he tends to break down under pressure, I'd say one of his main flaws is that when the spotlights shone on him is when he's made some of his biggest blunders.

Burkie1203 · 21-05-2018 12:25PM

awec wrote: »

Yes. McPhillips and Carbery just leaves us with two inexperienced 10s of a very similar standard. McPhillips isn't going to learn much from Carbery and vice versa.

Keatley would be a fairly mediocre signing but he might be a better signing than Carbery. Though the thoughts of actually signing Ian Keatley just depresses me.

What would actually please you? Apart from signing a 35 year old half back from Monty.

Ulster are in bits. Backline alone Jackson bowe Olding Payne trimble Piatau all gone. Ulsters first objective is to get a squad together for next season capable of a 3rd place finish. The longer term is completely different scenario which requires major long term planning.

Signing some 33 or 34 year old journey man who phones it in for a season is not the solution. We saw a bit of hunger about Ulster yday. With a very young side out. That should tell you something.

awec · 21-05-2018 12:30PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

What would actually please you? Apart from signing a 35 year old half back from Monty.

Ulster are in bits. Backline alone Jackson bowe Olding Payne trimble Piatau all gone. Ulsters first objective is to get a squad together for next season capable of a 3rd place finish. The longer term is completely different scenario which requires major long term planning.

Signing some 33 or 34 year old journey man who phones it in for a season is not the solution. We saw a bit of hunger about Ulster yday. With a very young side out. That should tell you something.

And signing another young, inexperienced guy with limited experience at 10 who plainly doesn't want to be here is?

A 35 year old journeyman who can no longer play 80 minutes every week is exactly what Ulster need. Someone to mentor McPhillips and who will come off the bench at the 60 minute mark to see games through.

prawnsambo · 21-05-2018 12:34PM

awec wrote: »

And signing another young, inexperienced guy with limited experience at 10 who plainly doesn't want to be here is?

To be fair, if he goes it will be because he wants to. The IRFU can't force him.

Burkie1203 · 21-05-2018 12:36PM

awec wrote: »

And signing another young, inexperienced guy with limited experience at 10 who plainly doesn't want to be here is?

A 35 year old journeyman who can no longer play 80 minutes every week is exactly what Ulster need. Someone to mentor McPhillips and who will come off the bench at the 60 minute mark to see games through.

Nope. Ulster need competition and hunger in the squad.

What if McPhillips might soon realise he isnt under pressure from the disinterested hasbeen for his place and his performances drop off as a result? From what I have seen of him, he needs gametime. Not mentoring. He executed a few poor kicks yesterday but his decision making looked fine.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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