8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Logo · 20-05-2018 01:58PM

[QUOTE Folks, we aren’t voting to murder babies. If you don’t know this you shouldn’t really vote. If you keep saying a lie it doesn’t make it true logo.[/QUOTE]

If we vote yes next Friday are we voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

Guy:Incognito · 20-05-2018 02:00PM

Logo wrote: »

Is there any chance that posters might extract themselves from religious and other ideologies. Next Friday you will be asked if you agree to allow abortion of a fetus without question from a girls body, and also to the murder of a six month old baby

When in doubt, turn to lies and scaremongering.

20-05-2018 02:00PM

Arrived into Ireland yesterday around 4pm.
There are overwhelming amounts of 'no' posters! I can't believe how many.
I haven't even left Dublin yet & I have only seen a handful of 'yes' ones.

I don't expect to see many more down the country.

Dressing gown · 20-05-2018 02:00PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Going by your numbers, there's a much lower incidence of abortions being had carried out on unborns by Irish women than in the UK. Thankfully, we have our freedom, but some seem it fit to look across the pond for their cues. Yes - women deserve healthcare. And the unborn deserve protection of life, so it's a balancing act. Abortion without restriction is devoid of any appreciation of nuance.

Repeat after me Yes voters: If the proposed legislation is enacted, that will result in healthy women having healthy babies killed and I'm going to vote for that.

So you know when you find out someone you know is pregnant, a common question people ask is “when is your baby due”. As in, the “baby” will come into being in the future. If you yourself have asked this question, you don’t really think the bun in the oven is really a baby already. So, I’m voting yes but I’d be disgusted at a baby being killed. Healthy or otherwise. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

Sofiztikated · 20-05-2018 02:01PM

Just her wrote: »

A foetus if allowed continue its life will become sentient in a short space of time.

So I don't see that the two can be treated the same as regards assigning rights, specifically the right to life. The foetus/developing baby is uniquely different to any other life form and more value needs to be given to them and their right to life than other forms of life such as mentioned above, in my opinion.

I'm not Grayson, but I'd like to hop in on this bit.

A fetus will PROBABLY become sentient. For me, this is an important distinction, and it's where I personally find termination of pregnancy to be ok. There is a lot of discussion as to where sentience happens, but it's not 12 weeks. The baby/fetus/whatever you want to call it is just not there yet. The parts are, but the lights are not on. For me, it's a good point to call it.

I don't believe just being a fetus gives it a divine right to life when it negatively affects the person giving it that life.

Cabaal · 20-05-2018 02:01PM

Logo wrote: »

If we vote yes next Friday are we voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion and within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

Earlier you said we're going to murder 6 month old baby's, which is it?
Can you even stick to the same story?

now, lets test your lack of knowledge.
In exactly what situations will terminations be allowed after 12 weeks?

eviltwin · 20-05-2018 02:02PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Going by your numbers, there's a much lower incidence of abortions being had carried out on unborns by Irish women than in the UK. Thankfully, we have our freedom, but some seem it fit to look across the pond for their cues. Yes - women deserve healthcare. And the unborn deserve protection of life, so it's a balancing act. Abortion without restriction is devoid of any appreciation of nuance.

Repeat after me Yes voters: If the proposed legislation is enacted, that will result in healthy women having healthy babies killed and I'm going to vote for that.

I don't consider a foetus to be a baby so I have no problem with a woman having an abortion for non medical reasons. It's none of my business.

Cupcake_Crisis · 20-05-2018 02:04PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Going by your numbers, there's a much lower incidence of abortions being had carried out on unborns by Irish women than in the UK. Thankfully, we have our freedom, but some seem it fit to look across the pond for their cues. Yes - women deserve healthcare. And the unborn deserve protection of life, so it's a balancing act. Abortion without restriction is devoid of any appreciation of nuance.

Repeat after me Yes voters: If the proposed legislation is enacted, that will result in healthy women having healthy babies killed and I'm going to vote for that.

As long as there are women the unborn will have a right to life.

Water John · 20-05-2018 02:09PM

DOS, no COI church in the country or RCC for that matter, are overflowing to the door, as your post says. So, on the basis of that porkie, I have serious doubts about the rest of your post. The Minister I accept said largely as you say, but I would very much doubt a wholehearthed endorsement from all those present.

Logo · 20-05-2018 02:09PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Earlier you said we're going to murder 6 month old baby's, which is it?
Can you even stick to the same story?

now, lets test your lack of knowledge.
In exactly what situations will terminations be allowed after 12 weeks?

I'm just trying to understand what a yes vote next Friday will mean. Will you agree that if we vote yes next Friday we voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

retro:electro · 20-05-2018 02:10PM

I sent this thread to one of my friends the other day. She was undecided but verging on a No. She is after messaging me saying she is now an avid Yes and is mortified she was ever going to vote no. She is forwarding on the thread to all her family members. Well done to all those contributing their time to this demanding thread. I’m sure it’s exhausting but rest assured you’re doing good work!

Water John · 20-05-2018 02:14PM

Logo, nothing changes in law after the YES vote on Friday. It's then up to the Oirechtais to pass legislation and for the President to sign it, whatever the legislation decided is, and it's thought, by the AG and the President to not conflict with the Constitution.

January · 20-05-2018 02:15PM

Logo wrote: »

I'm just trying to understand what a yes vote next Friday will mean. Will you agree that if we vote yes next Friday we voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

No, because it's proposed legislation. It's not a guarantee of what will be in the legislation. It cannot be debated unless the 8th is repealed. Which is what we're voting on on Friday.

Just her · 20-05-2018 02:18PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I'm not Grayson, but I'd like to hop in on this bit.

A fetus will PROBABLY become sentient. For me, this is an important distinction, and it's where I personally find termination of pregnancy to be ok. There is a lot of discussion as to where sentience happens, but it's not 12 weeks. The baby/fetus/whatever you want to call it is just not there yet. The parts are, but the lights are not on. For me, it's a good point to call it.

I don't believe just being a fetus gives it a divine right to life when it negatively affects the person giving it that life.

Thanks for your reply, I added another paragraph to the end of my post probably just as you were typing your reply.

Ok, so we all agree (I think) that the foetus/baby will probably become sentient . And if we attach great value to sentience, to the extent that it makes the difference between deciding between life and death, then is it not counter productive to abort the foetus /baby at a point just before they become sentient?

Sofiztikated · 20-05-2018 02:18PM

Logo wrote: »

I'm just trying to understand what a yes vote next Friday will mean. Does it mean that if we vote yes next Friday we voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

A Yes vote next Friday will mean the text of the 8th will be replaced with

"Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy."

There is proposed legislation that says unrestricted access to 12 weeks (Not 3 months) and up to viability in restricted cases. Viability is generally 24 weeks, however, as I read it, if a pregnancy is deemed viable at 23 weeks, then it won't be an abortion, but a termination of pregnancy. I stand to be corrected on that though.

There isn't a guarantee that this is what will be written into law, and can be tightened or loosened.

eviltwin · 20-05-2018 02:18PM

Logo wrote: »

I'm just trying to understand what a yes vote next Friday will mean. Will you agree that if we vote yes next Friday we voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

The only thing that changes next week if the Yes passes is the Repeal of the 8th.

Abortion is still illegal. It has to be legislated for. The current bill will need to go through the usual process. It will take months, it will be debated and tweaked. It's possible we will end up with a much more watered down version of what's currently proposed.

A woman contemplating an abortion today will be in the same position next week even with Repeal.

Logo · 20-05-2018 02:21PM

Water John wrote: »

Logo, nothing changes in law after the YES vote on Friday. It's then up to the Oirechtais to pass legislation and for the President to sign it, whatever the legislation decided is, and it's thought, by the AG and the President to not conflict with the Constitution.

That is incorrect information. A yes vote will mean that abortions will be legal in Ireland. if we vote yes next Friday we are voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

antiskeptic · 20-05-2018 02:23PM

Logo wrote: »

That is incorrect information. A yes vote will mean that abortions will be legal in Ireland. if we vote yes next Friday we are voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

Technically, water john is right - nothing changes with a YES vote.

Practically you are right. A.O.B. will come in

wexie · 20-05-2018 02:23PM

Logo wrote: »

That is incorrect information. A yes vote will mean that abortions will be legal in Ireland. if we vote yes next Friday we are voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

No you're completely incorrect.

A yes vote will mean that it will become possible to enact legislation to legalise abortion.

eviltwin · 20-05-2018 02:24PM

Logo wrote: »

That is incorrect information. A yes vote will mean that abortions will be legal in Ireland. if we vote yes next Friday we are voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

There is no legal framework for abortion even with Repeal. It will have to be legislated for and pass through the Oireachtas.

Sofiztikated · 20-05-2018 02:24PM

Just her wrote: »

Thanks for your reply, I added another paragraph to the end of my post probably just as you were typing your reply.

Ok, so we all agree (I think) that the foetus/baby will probably become sentient . And if we attach great value to sentience, to the extent that it makes the difference between deciding between life and death, then is it not counter productive to abort the foetus /baby at a point just before they become sentient?

As I said before, I don't believe just being a fetus gives it a divine right to life when it negatively affects the person giving it that life. Just because it might achieve sentience, I see no reason for it to impact on those that already HAVE sentience.

DOS · 20-05-2018 02:24PM

Water John wrote: »

DOS, no COI church in the country or RCC for that matter, are overflowing to the door, as your post says. So, on the basis of that porkie, I have serious doubts about the rest of your post. The Minister I accept said largely as you say, but I would very much doubt a wholehearthed endorsement from all those present.

So John Water you're familiar with EVERY RC and CoI church in Ireland and their size? The local RC church often overflows as the priest says a 15 to 20 min mass!! So don't accuse others of lieing when you quite obviously don't have enough knowledge to make such comments.

Sofiztikated · 20-05-2018 02:26PM

Logo wrote: »

That is incorrect information. A yes vote will mean that abortions will be legal in Ireland. if we vote yes next Friday we are voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

No, it is 100% correct. Without any doubt. This is EXACTLY what the referendum is about.

Cupcake_Crisis · 20-05-2018 02:27PM

Logo wrote: »

That is incorrect information. A yes vote will mean that abortions will be legal in Ireland. if we vote yes next Friday we are voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

Logo, you clearly have zero interest in hearing what is being said here. Are you even reading the posts that are directed at you?

Nothing changes next Saturday if the referendum passes. All a yes vote means is that the government have the space to debate the legislation and put it before the Oireachtas. Friday is the first step on a very long road. If the referendum passes on Friday abortion will still be illegal on Saturday.

Skylinehead · 20-05-2018 02:29PM

Logo wrote: »

That is incorrect information. A yes vote will mean that abortions will be legal in Ireland. if we vote yes next Friday we are voting for a 72 hour decision period before abortion within three months into pregnancy and up to six months depending on the case

Mod: In case you missed it, you are no longer allowed to post in this thread after your Hitler comment. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, but no more.

Dressing gown · 20-05-2018 02:30PM

If I’m really honest, I’m not worried about my daughters needing access to abortions in the future should they need one. By the time that comes around contraception will have come on massively, and I plan on being a supportive parent as regards any decisions they hopefully won’t need to but may need to in that department.

What I’m really worried with is coping in the situation where they have a wanted pregnancy that they are told will die. I’ve been in that situation and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

TMI I’m sorry but my period is very irregular so when I found out I was pregnant I had to go for a dating scan. I was desperate for a baby and was taking daily pregnancy tests so I found out very early. When I went for the first scan they told me I was too early to measure and to comeback back the following week. When I went back, a really horrible scanner told me what was there was growing too slowly and would die. Just like that. He said I’d have to come back the following week just to confirm. So from joy to fear at 4 weeks pregnant. When I went back the consultant was called in and she said they couldn’t call it yet, to go home and have a nice Xmas and they would see us in the new year. She said nature is amazing and some grow at different rates so not to worry. But I hadn’t forgotten being told it would die. So it was a crappy Xmas and then in the new year and another few scans and blood tests my fears were confirmed. And then the wait for the ERPC and then the miscarriage and all the blood and then the ERPC anyway. And that was a first trimester pregnancy. I’m not joking I woke to a soaking wet pillow every morning. I didn’t get any respite from the sadness even when I slept.

Now that probably would not have played out much differently without the 8th (I was in the UK), but, I did find comfort in how early the pregnancy was and I didn’t need to think or worry about the foetus being in any pain. But, if that had happened far into a pregnancy I am certain I would have been a basket case of grief. That is what I fear. That is something I would wish on no one. We cannot allow the 8th amendment to punish women any more. Two families a week travel to the UK to end a FFA pregnancy. You cannot understand their pain. I’ve experienced only a fraction of it and we need to help ease that pain in any way we can. Please don’t support legislation that causes suffering, when the alternative does not prevent any. Please vote to repeal the 8th.

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 02:32PM

Logo wrote: »

That is incorrect information. A yes vote will mean that abortions will be legal in Ireland........

Abortions are already legal in Ireland, but being Ireland we have abortion vouchers

and a woman here needs to get an abortion voucher first :

Now, these vouchers are expensive and involve travel

Some women can't afford them, others are too unwell for the travel

If you vote "YES" , women in Ireland won't need to buy a voucher anymore and the ones that are really unwell won't need to travel

Logo · 20-05-2018 02:33PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Technically, water john is right - nothing changes with a YES vote.

Practically you are right. A.O.B. will come in

The technicality doesn't bother me. I'm neither religious or moral. And I did vote for equality. I also agree that women in this country deserve more and the 8th should be repealed. I've already received a warning from boards mods so I'm probably gone. Apparently they don't like my cousin Adolf making amends

eeepaulo · 20-05-2018 02:37PM

Does anyone have any thoughts on how fast legislation will be passed?

I just think about the way the healy Rae's and very few others filibustered the recent transport bill, will that be possible?

I really do not want to see it used in election time and I'm certain mcguirk, ganley and the iona lot will seamlessly slime their position to undermining and foreign backed lobbying, maybe candidate running?

wexie · 20-05-2018 02:40PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

Does anyone have any thoughts on how fast legislation will be passed?

I just think about the way the healy Rae's and very few others filibustered the recent transport bill, will that be possible?

Personally I'd be surprised if there won't be moronic eejits like them trying to do their utmost to either block or delay the legislation or squeeze every last favour out of it.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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