8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

RobertKK · 19-05-2018 12:13AM

kenmc wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what, if anything, would happen if she did vote in both places anyone know? Like if you had slight amnesia and forgot you'd voted earlier that day, could that be your fault?

Penalties.

157.—(1) Where a person is guilty of an offence under this Act, other than an offence mentioned in subsection (2), such person shall be liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for a period not exceeding six months or to both such fine and such imprisonment, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £2,500 or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for a period not exceeding two years or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

(2) Where a person is guilty of an offence under sections 133 , 140 , 148 or 153 , such person shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for a period not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1992/act/23/section/157/enacted/en/html#sec157

applehunter · 19-05-2018 12:17AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you consider frozen embryos alive?
Genuine question.

It's not a subject I am overly familiar with.

Do you?

antiskeptic · 19-05-2018 12:17AM

Fizzlesque wrote: »

Hi Hotblack Desiato. Thank you for your specifically-for-me reply. I guess you haven't read any of my (at this stage many) posts about my daughter's adoption. Granted, they're spaced over many years, so it's not hugely surprising you have missed them

I wasn't actively pressurised, but I was told I'd be on my own and that I'd make a mess of both our lives (that's a synopsis of a much larger story). My father is a good man but he had old fashioned ideas and I wasn't emotionally healthy at that time so I didn't believe in myself and believed I'd cause unnecessary damage to my child. Ah, it's a long story and this isn't the time or the place to get into it.

I am happy to read your wife was part of a wonderful family. My daughter's adoption is semi-open, so I have been able to keep in touch, and, more importantly, know she is well cared for. As stories go, mine is not the worst. My daughter knows I am waiting for her to get in touch - I tell her as much, every year when I send her birthday letter.

To be frank, I only had fleeting thoughts of abortion when I thought I was pregnant. As soon as the Well Woman Clinic confirmed my pregnancy, all thoughts of abortion went out the window; I was going to become a mother. And I did become a mother. I am a 'different to most' mother because even though my child grew up with an adopted mother, she's still my baby to me. I was unable to give my child the childhood she deserved so I allowed another woman to take my place - we met and agreed on continued contact and shared love for 'our' daughter. It has been many years ongoing and not always easy but it could be worse. It could be a lot worse. I could have been shut out completely. But, I would not have agreed to that.

I am glad I carried my daughter to full term and I enjoyed my pregnancy. I had a relatively easy birth and I am glad she is alive. Despite all of this, I support a woman's right to choose to end a pregnancy if she feels it that is the right decision for her. It is a million miles from easy to relinquish a child for adoption. I am sometimes haunted by my choice. Knowing your baby is out there and you can't scoop her up in your arms and let her know everything will be OK is a special form of torture I didn't know existed until I made the choice I did.

Anyway, suffice to say, I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone. I would not recommend adoption as a solution to an unplanned pregnancy. If someone had come to me and said "I'll help you if you want to keep your baby", maybe I'd have a lot less posts on Boards.ie

There's a post to motivate both a Yes vote and a No vote all in one.

Wow!

19-05-2018 12:28AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

The medics have their views, the philosophers have their views, the theists have their views, the lawyers have their views, the politicians have their views.

No one can say for sure what the cut off point is for being a person as opposed to being abortable

To vote Yes is to say you're willing to take a stab at that cut off point. You, however informed you think you are by all the arguments that all the "experts" pose, are deciding to play God.

As the old saying goes. If you don't know (and you don't actually know) vote No.

Those of us who don't believe in God (or do but not the Catholic Church's version) prefer to trust in the medical profession. Science wins over religion for me, and science says a foetus in early pregnancy is not a person.

Bannasidhe · 19-05-2018 12:29AM

applehunter wrote: »

It's not a subject I am overly familiar with.

Surely if you believe life begins at conception than logically an embryo (frozen or not) is alive?

PhoenixParker · 19-05-2018 12:29AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

The medics have their views, the philosophers have their views, the theists have their views, the lawyers have their views, the politicians have their views.

No one can say for sure what the cut off point is for being a person as opposed to being abortable

To vote Yes is to say you're willing to take a stab at that cut off point. You, however informed you think you are by all the arguments that all the "experts" pose, are deciding to play God.

As the old saying goes. If you don't know (and you don't actually know) vote No.

I know that my 12 week miscarriage was painful but not a minute fraction of the pain that losing my living breathing son would be.

I know that nobody in my family, friends or society in general treated it as the loss of a child though they were upset for me.

I know that the government didn't give me child benefit for the three months. Nor did they give me maternity leave which the government legally allows for stillbirths at 24 weeks.

I know that at 12 weeks the fetus has value but not a value remotely close to that of a child.
My family and friends also know this, even the no voters among them.
The government also know this in the way they legislate.

I also know that a 12 week fetus can't survive without being attached to my body, and I believe I should get to decide what I do with my body.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-05-2018 12:30AM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

It was common knowledge at the time, sorry no linkies available so you'll just have to take my word for it. But the rah-rah gang were very much in favour of the 8th.

Dressing gown · 19-05-2018 12:34AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

The trouble is the arbitrary means at which you draw a line in the sand.

Viability? Well abort up to then for a few years and come back and tell me what you think of all those abortions when science pushes viability back 5 weeks.

When the brain develops? Which day has it enough brain and which day not.

What happens when we don't know exactly which day the conception happened and the theoretical-person is aborted because the day of its conception was calculated to be was out a day?

If it's personhood being conferred by you (along with the world of a difference between the rights you have as a person vs non person), you can't play fast and loose with it. I mean, you could be killing hundreds of "persons" a year mistakenly.

You're playing God (and I don't mean that religiously). You can wrap it up all you like in legal-eez and medical-eez. But you'll never get to the essence of what it is to be a human

There is no playing going on here and I take so much offence to your flippant condemning remarks that you just keep on making. All these ‘selfish women’ the suggestion that people voting yes equivocate a foetus in the womb to a beer mat, frankly you are so out of line you’ve fallen off the flat earth.

I’ve had a miscarriage at 11 weeks. That was my first pregnancy. It broke me. I grieved fornit more acutely than the death of my father. Yes I am an angry angry yes voter but it’s just horrible insensitive and frankly stupid remarks like the ones you repeatedly make without hesitation that make me angry. The women having these abortions are people. They have a life as important to them as yours is to you. They are going through a bloody hard time when the choose to have an abortion or choose to try to abort themselves when they lack the means to get there themselves.

God if there is one and the son of his Jesus he may or many not have sent did not treat people or speak of people like they didn’t matter. It is you throwing the beermat and clump of cells remarks around and to be honest treating those pregnant women with no respect whatsoever.

I wouldn’t say this to your face and I think I’m going to have to step back for a bit and I’m sorry for losing my cool but you need to think about the message and the fact that there could be young women in their own living hell at the moment reading this and they don’t deserve smart arse remarks belittling them as well as everything else they are going through.

antiskeptic · 19-05-2018 12:35AM

Flying Fox wrote: »

Those of us who don't believe in God (or do but not the Catholic Church's version) prefer to trust in the medical profession. Science wins over religion for me, and science says a foetus in early pregnancy is not a person.

This vote is down to you - whatever you choose to guide your path is your choice. It's guidance is subservient to your choice to be guided by it.

You, in this instance and for this moment, are playing God.

(for the record, I believe in God, just not the Catholic Church's version)

Just her · 19-05-2018 12:36AM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

My mother would have been too young to vote in 1983 and she would have voted for it if she could have, she won an award for a pro-life essay apparently. She had me when she was 20, not married. She worked in a customer facing role and would frequently get nasty comments about what a bold girl she was, from people who it's safe to assume (though I'm sure someone will argue the point) would have voted for the 8th.

She could not be a more emphatic yes this time around. I''ve posted before about my sister's experience, and my mam has worked as a counsellor in the rape crisis centre for years, both of which have influenced her. And she had 3 kids by the age of 27 and was our primary caregiver, not a job she took lightly to say the least.

I have to smile when I hear the words "pro-abortion" and think that as far as some people are concerned, that applies to her. She's one of the most pro baby people I can imagine.

My dad is a Yes too, I suspect he's gone on less of a journey though.

Anyways, before I started gushing about me mammy, my point was that some of the people who did or would have voted for the 8th will vote to repeal now. It's something quite a few people have said on the doors as well. All votes count the same like, but those ones mean a lot to me.

Sounds as if you're lucky your mam didn't hold the same viewpoint back before you were born, or we might not be listening to you gushing about her. Pity you wouldn't try to allow others the same chance you got at life, instead of going out of your way to canvas so they have a better chance of dying in utero, but sure you're alright Jack.

voz es · 19-05-2018 12:38AM

When there is a healthy child in the womb they are following your growth path, diminishing the 8th will diminish their chances.

Fight for the hard cases, not the hard hurt end of healthy babies through masked social abortion.

Fight to change the 8th don't kill it along with our pre-born humans rights.

lillycakes2 · 19-05-2018 12:39AM

How can we put our faith in the government to take care of WOMENS rights and health after what we have learned about them in regards to the cervical smear scandal. Scandal after scandal. They don't know how to handle /manage the rights of women/babies/foetuses/embryos/cells/zygotes.......you name it !!! They are incompetent!!!!!!!!!!!
They have failed women of Ireland.
How can we trust them with our yes vote??????? Yes to make decisions about womens bodies / health???????

What decisions were made with the Cervical smear scandals? Cover ups and lies............ Shower of F.......s.
Why this whole country are not marching the streets for the lot of them to be fired is beyond me? This referendum should be put on hold, because the gob****es and liars we have in government right now are not capable of handling this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pleas advice · 19-05-2018 12:39AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Surely if you believe life begins at conception than logically an embryo (frozen or not) is alive?

its in a state of suspended animation, what's the point of the question?

is it so that you can deny embryos are alive, so you can justify the killing of them?

applehunter · 19-05-2018 12:40AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Surely if you believe life begins at conception than logically an embryo (frozen or not) is alive?

So you believe the frozen embryo is alive?

I suppose it is, but if it's in a freezer it complicates it I would have thought.

I'd have to read up on it.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-05-2018 12:40AM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

She worked in a customer facing role and would frequently get nasty comments about what a bold girl she was, from people who it's safe to assume (though I'm sure someone will argue the point) would have voted for the 8th.

It fcuking boils my piss the way we treat women and mothers in this society. Frigid if they don't "put out". Sluts if they do. Slappers if they "fall pregnant".

It sickens my hole and makes me want to vomit. As a society, we should be ashamed of ourselves the way we treat woman and mothers. Love both my arse.

Repeal the 8th, because women deserve human rights.

Dressing gown · 19-05-2018 12:45AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

The medics have their views, the philosophers have their views, the theists have their views, the lawyers have their views, the politicians have their views.

No one can say for sure what the cut off point is for being a person as opposed to being abortable

To vote Yes is to say you're willing to take a stab at that cut off point. You, however informed you think you are by all the arguments that all the "experts" pose, are deciding to play God.

As the old saying goes. If you don't know (and you don't actually know) vote No.

And one more thing. It is you that actually don’t know. Dating scans are so advanced now they can predict dates with an amazing degree of accuracy. They were out for my daughter whom I did not have dates for by 1 day. And that is about the norm. We are years off bringing viability rates down by another 5 weeks if ever, and if that did happen cut off dates for termination would reduce. However, we know NOW that the foetus is not developed enough to feel pain, or to be conscious at 12 weeks. Just because you are ignorant to the science does not mean it does not exist.

And as for humanity, a great many minds far smarter than you or I have considered when the biological organism acquired human rights and that point is at birth. Our nation has already signed up to the treaties that declare that and we are in breach of those treaties.

Whiplash85 · 19-05-2018 12:47AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It fcuking boils my piss the way we treat women and mothers in this society. Frigid if they don't "put out". Sluts if they do. Slappers if they "fall pregnant".

It sickens my hole and makes me want to vomit. As a society, we should be ashamed of ourselves the way we treat woman and mothers. Love both my arse.

Repeal the 8th, because women deserve human rights.

Jesus wept you are a pain in the hole

Bannasidhe · 19-05-2018 12:48AM

applehunter wrote: »

So you believe the frozen embryo is alive?

I suppose it is, but if it's in a freezer it complicates it I would have thought.

I'd have to read up on it.

I have already made my position clear numerous times so no point answering a question with a question.

This is about your question re: life begins at conception.

If you believe life begins at conception than logically all embryos are alive.

yes or no?

Experience_day · 19-05-2018 12:49AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It fcuking boils my piss the way we treat women and mothers in this society. Frigid if they don't "put out". Sluts if they do. Slappers if they "fall pregnant".

It sickens my hole and makes me want to vomit. As a society, we should be ashamed of ourselves the way we treat woman and mothers. Love both my arse.

Repeal the 8th, because women deserve human rights.

Ohh I'm great at virtue signalling. ohh look at me.

I said LOOK AT ME!

antiskeptic · 19-05-2018 12:49AM

Dressing gown wrote: »

There is no playing going on here and I take so much offence to your flippant condemning remarks that you just keep on making. All these ‘selfish women’ the suggestion that people voting yes equivocate a foetus in the womb to a beer mat, frankly you are so out of line you’ve fallen off the flat earth.

You misconstrue.

There are people out there who will fall pregnant through utter carelessness (and I include men in this). There are people out there, having fallen pregnant through utter careless will abort for the most selfish and puerile of reasons (and I include men in this).

Those people will place next to zero value on the life in the womb. That is evidenced by the carelessness with which they fell pregnant and the selfishness and puerility with which they abort. Life, the worth of a beermat

That's a fact.

That doesn't mean all or even most abortions belong there. And you ought not think that I suggest that the case.

I’ve had a miscarriage at 11 weeks. That was my first pregnancy. It broke me. I grieved fornit more acutely than the death of my father. Yes I am an angry angry yes voter but it’s just horrible insensitive and frankly stupid remarks like the ones you repeatedly make without hesitation that make me angry.

I've only had a single experience of pregnancy (that I know of) and that was the birth of my son (via my wife). The love felt for him makes it unimaginable what it would have been like had something, anything gone wrong along the way. I am sorry.

The trouble however, is that selfishness and carelessness is going to feature in the mix just as love and anguish is going to feature. And there will be places where both feature. We are human and selfishness is part of our make up - it would be a lie to pretend otherwise. It would be a lie to pretend that it doesn't enter this mix. We're simply not that pure.

The issue is too important and too pressing to ignore this fact. Even though it will hurt some. Please try to hold in mind that I am not intending to speak about you and I am not speaking about all. Don't project what I say onto yourself when onto yourself it doesn't belong.

applehunter · 19-05-2018 12:51AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It fcuking boils my piss the way we treat women and mothers in this society. Frigid if they don't "put out". Sluts if they do. Slappers if they "fall pregnant".

It sickens my hole and makes me want to vomit. As a society, we should be ashamed of ourselves the way we treat woman and mothers. Love both my arse.

Repeal the 8th, because women deserve human rights.

Boiling piss, itchy rectum, vomiting... you need to visit your GP.

Sounds like a classic case of hysteria.

applehunter · 19-05-2018 12:57AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have already made my position clear numerous times so no point answering a question with a question.

This is about your question re: life begins at conception.

If you believe life begins at conception than logically all embryos are alive.

yes or no?

I said I agreed with you in my last post.

I am used to the male female intercourse - sperm fertilises egg then life reasoning.

Does this have anything to do with the 8th amendment?

Bannasidhe · 19-05-2018 12:57AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

There are people out there who will fall pregnant through utter carelessness (and I include men in this). There are people out there, having fallen pregnant through utter careless will abort for the most selfish and puerile of reasons (and I include men in this).

.

Except, of course, that men generally do not 'fall pregnant'* - men can accidentally impregnate but actually be pregnant... not so much. So 'selfish' man is more likely worried about his wallet as physically he won't feel a thing.

*exception being trans men.

Overheal · 19-05-2018 12:58AM

January wrote: »

I know the wife of the postman. I'm glad he took a stand the union and eventually an post supported his decision not to deliver anti choice lies on principal.

I handed the no leaflet back to my own postman told him I didn't want it. He said he didn't either.

Still needs to be careful showing his bias as doesnt he also distribute the polling/voting cards? Neither side wants to insinuate anything should they not get their cards.

Overheal · 19-05-2018 12:58AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

You misconstrue.

There are people out there who will fall pregnant through utter carelessness (and I include men in this). There are people out there, having fallen pregnant through utter careless will abort for the most selfish and puerile of reasons (and I include men in this).

Those people will place next to zero value on the life in the womb. That is evidenced by the carelessness with which they fell pregnant and the selfishness and puerility with which they abort. Life, the worth of a beermat

That's a fact.

That doesn't mean all or even most abortions belong there. And you ought not think that I suggest that the case.

I've only had a single experience of pregnancy (that I know of) and that was the birth of my son (via my wife). The love felt for him makes it unimaginable what it would have been like had something, anything gone wrong along the way. I am sorry.

The trouble however, is that selfishness and carelessness is going to feature in the mix just as love and anguish is going to feature. And there will be places where both feature. We are human and selfishness is part of our make up - it would be a lie to pretend otherwise. It would be a lie to pretend that it doesn't enter this mix. We're simply not that pure.

The issue is too important and too pressing to ignore this fact. Even though it will hurt some. Please try to hold in mind that I am not intending to speak about you and I am not speaking about all. Don't project what I say onto yourself when onto yourself it doesn't belong.

(<slutshaming>)
(anecdote about me lovely wife after dismissing other users' 'petty anectdotes)
(<slutshaming>)
fin

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 19-05-2018 12:59AM

Just her wrote: »

Sounds as if you're lucky your mam didn't hold the same viewpoint back before you were born, or we might not be listening to you gushing about her. Pity you wouldn't try to allow others the same chance you got at life, instead of going out of your way to canvas so they have a better chance of dying in utero, but sure you're alright Jack.

To the same extent I'm lucky the contraception didn't work.

Unlucky for you I guess that the three pregnancies she didn't abort have now resulted in three Repeal campaigners! Statistically she's likely to have miscarried another mean abortionist too

Bannasidhe · 19-05-2018 01:03AM

applehunter wrote: »

I said I agreed with you in my last post.

I am used to the male female intercourse - sperm fertilises egg then life reasoning.

Does this have anything to do with the 8th amendment?

You can't have agreed with me because I didn't say anything of my own view for you to agree with.

All I asked was whether you believed an embryo was alive. It was a question, not a statement.

So much wriggling around when it's a simple yes or no.

Just her · 19-05-2018 01:04AM

Question to yes voters. To those of you who say you truly believe the foetus has no right to life, is not sentient, its a woman's body and choice what to do with it: there was an American comedian who is extremely Pro choice and came out with how she would like to get pregnant in order to get an abortion. How do you honestly feel about that and why? For those of you who think the foetus is worth little to nothing. I'm not talking to people who have been talking on here about difficult cases, I'm talking to people who have openly made the foetus or as I consider it baby out to be worthless and have made out it has no right to life whatsoever.

antiskeptic · 19-05-2018 01:04AM

Dressing gown wrote: »

And one more thing. It is you that actually don’t know. Dating scans are so advanced now they can predict dates with an amazing degree of accuracy.

We're talking about non-persons / persons. Trying the slide a Rizla paper between those two states is impossible.

Not only because the scans won't be able to measure the exact number of electrons making up the brain which divide between person and non-person. But because any line in the sand: viability, weeks, weight, sentience levels is arbitrary anyway.

They were out for my daughter whom I did not have dates for by 1 day.

Out by a day which way? Rendering her a person when she wasn't or rendering her a non-person when she was. See my point?

We are years off bringing viability rates down by another 5 weeks if ever,

You miss the point. Bring it back 6 months tomorrow and the 6 months x 20 years worth of abortions you carried out in your professional lifetime have all, magically, through science, become persons. Had only they be born now.

However, we know NOW that the foetus is not developed enough to feel pain, or to be conscious at 12 weeks. Just because you are ignorant to the science does not mean it does not exist.

It's not that I'm ignorant of it. It's just that I don't reckon myself in a position to decide that conscious or feeling pain is the decider of whether I ought be considered a card carrying member of the human race.

In so far as you do, you are playing God. I'm not condemning in this - I'm just trying to get you to realise that that's what you're doing. You are the decider: Science is merely your servant in your decision.

I mean, you don't have to go with Science, do you? You choice to do that.

And as for humanity, a great many minds far smarter than you or I have considered when the biological organism acquired human rights and that point is at birth. Our nation has already signed up to the treaties that declare that and we are in breach of those treaties.

Same as above. If you chose to to lay your decision at the feet of great minds / national treaties / science then that is your doing. You are the decider of doing that. You remain "God".

You can't lay the responsibility for your choice (and how you chose to be informed) anywhere else but at your own feet.

I don't want to teach you to suck eggs, I just thought I'd underline what's going on.

Overheal · 19-05-2018 01:05AM

Just her wrote: »

Sounds as if you're lucky your mam didn't hold the same viewpoint back before you were born, or we might not be listening to you gushing about her. Pity you wouldn't try to allow others the same chance you got at life, instead of going out of your way to canvas so they have a better chance of dying in utero, but sure you're alright Jack.

Or that she decided to have sex the night before, or the night after, or the contraception didn't fail, or a different sperm reached the egg

You're trying to split a waveringly thin "what if" hair there.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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