8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

_Dara_

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

My mrs is canvassing for T4Y, the husband of one of the canvassers is a postman and doesn't want to deliver the No leaflets and has taken it to the union. I would have thought he would be obliged to deliver any legal and paid-for mail, and it would sicken my hole to have to deliver such myself, but I'd do it. In 1983 it would have been the anti-8th side who would have been suppressed.

Yeah, I don't agree with that now. He needs to suck it up.

Coillte_Bhoy

January wrote: »

I didn't give anybody any grief thanks. He knocked because he had a parcel handed me the no and yes flyers with the parcel I asked if I could return the no one because I didn't want it and he took it back and said yeah you can but I don't want it either. End of conversation and he went on his merry way to deliver them to the rest of the estate.

Ive had a few handed back to me as well and i didnt make an issue but its a pain in the hole.. Why could you not just bin it yourself? Its not as if the postman is an active canvasser or anything. Did it make you feel important handing it back?

Coillte_Bhoy

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Sorry, I got carried away with the adoption thing.

My 83 year old mother in law, who is a frequent mass goer, is voting Yes and has convinced several of her friends to vote Yes.

Let's not forget that even in 1983 33% of votes were No to the 8th. These people are all over 53 now and are unlikely to vote for the 8th now. In Dublin it was 51:49 so 49% of people in Dublin who are over 53 and who voted in 1983 voted against the 8th then, in spite of all the harassment and propaganda and bullying of the catholic church in its pomp, Youth Defence and IRA thugs beating up people.

seamus

pleas advice wrote: »

surely theres some issue with not delivering mail, I presume if they were addressed, like election flyers are, they'd have to be delivered?

Yes. Addressed mail must be delivered, it's a legal requirement. A couple of years back a postman was prosecuted for dumping his undelivered mail in his boot. He couldn't cope with the workload and rather than go back to the office with undelivered mail, he threw it into his car.

Flyers and similar leaflet drops are debateable and I expect it falls under a sort of conscientious objection. Same as if any employer asked you to do something which conflicted with your personal beliefs.

For An Post there's still a contractual requirement so they will have to get another postie to complete that leaflet drop.

January

_Dara_ wrote: »

Yeah, I don't agree with that now. He needs to suck it up.

Pretty hard to suck it up and deliver them when they've had direct experience of the 8th amendment at play in this country.... I think its hard to judge if you don't know the full story.

antiskeptic

Uncharted wrote: »

Election posters are not outdated???
Are you being serious or are you picking arguments for fun on this thread?

You must have some insights that the folks pouring money into them on both sides don't have.

Forgive me if I side with them. I don't suppose them stupid.

Election posters pre-date Daniel O Connells time ffs!!!

So does paper. So does air.

One day you'll be sat in a settee with a smartphone in your hand looking up the news, whilst your children smile at your antiquity. "Dad, why don't you do telepathy, it's easy!"

applehunter

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

My mrs is canvassing for T4Y, the husband of one of the canvassers is a postman and doesn't want to deliver the No leaflets and has taken it to the union. I would have thought he would be obliged to deliver any legal and paid-for mail, and it would sicken my hole to have to deliver such myself, but I'd do it. In 1983 it would have been the anti-8th side who would have been suppressed.

I hope he was fired.

Roy Keane would be going mental at that one.

January

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ive had a few handed back to me as well and i didnt make an issue but its a pain in the hole.. Why could you not just bin it yourself? Its not as if the postman is an active canvasser or anything. Did it make you feel important handing it back?

No didn't feel important at all I just don't want anti choice lies entering my household.

January

applehunter wrote: »

I hope he was fired.

Roy Keane would be going mental at that one.

He wasn't.

antiskeptic

antiskeptic wrote: »

It's a counter to the "life in the womb isn't worth a beermat" way of thinking.

It's an important referendum, it's good that we aren't let forget that from time to time.

Anti union and homophobic too, anything other than fetuses you actually like?

Coillte_Bhoy

January wrote: »

No didn't feel important at all I just don't want anti choice lies entering my household.

Right. Bully for you,
:rolleyes:

applehunter

January wrote: »

He wasn't.

Great to know my post is being screened by the lefties in the post office.

Bad enough they screened my birthday cards for cash over the last 20 years.

gctest50

mesmerise wrote: »

vote no
protect those who don't have a voice

Welcome to boards.ie !

You've persuaded me with your powerful stuff message

mesmerise wrote: »

George Soros out of Irish Politics

how about those from abroad that have come over to speak at anti-choice gatherings ?

pjohnson

DubInMeath wrote: »

Anti union and homophobic too, anything other than fetuses you actually like?

Telepathic children?

January

applehunter wrote: »

Great to know my post is being screened by the lefties in the post office.

Bad enough they screened my birthday cards for cash over the last 20 years.

Not post it was a leaflet drop

Uncharted

antiskeptic wrote: »

You must have some insights that the folks pouring money into them on both sides don't have.

Forgive me if I side with them. I don't suppose them stupid.




So does paper. So does air.

One day you'll be sat in a settee with a smartphone in your hand looking up the news, whilst your children smile at your antiquity. "Dad, why don't you do telepathy, it's easy!"

...... average attempt. 4/10.
Now move along. Others would like to post opinions on important matters....

antiskeptic

DubInMeath wrote: »

Anti union and homophobic too, anything other than fetuses you actually like?

Not sure where you got the homophobic from but I've seen what union-think run riot can do.

Don't get me wrong - the powerful need to be opposed else they'll ride everyone ragged.

It's just that the swing, when it get's up a head of steam in the other direction, is as stupid and ugly

antiskeptic

Uncharted wrote: »

...... average attempt. 4/10.
Now move along. Others would like to post opinions on important matters....

4/10?

That's 0.4 these days.

Hotblack Desiato

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I am into the second half of my twenties so I don't know if I am considered the youth vote anymore.

Feck that, I'm pushing 50 and why should I kowtow* to a yhong slip of a thing?

(*Making me bend down better have a VERY good reason )

It used to be a sign of getting old when the gardai looked too young, now it's the mods...

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

My mother would have been too young to vote in 1983 and she would have voted for it if she could have, she won an award for a pro-life essay apparently. She had me when she was 20, not married. She worked in a customer facing role and would frequently get nasty comments about what a bold girl she was, from people who it's safe to assume (though I'm sure someone will argue the point) would have voted for the 8th.

She could not be a more emphatic yes this time around. I''ve posted before about my sister's experience, and my mam has worked as a counsellor in the rape crisis centre for years, both of which have influenced her. And she had 3 kids by the age of 27 and was our primary caregiver, not a job she took lightly to say the least.

I have to smile when I hear the words "pro-abortion" and think that as far as some people are concerned, that applies to her. She's one of the most pro baby people I can imagine.

My dad is a Yes too, I suspect he's gone on less of a journey though.

Anyways, before I started gushing about me mammy, my point was that some of the people who did or would have voted for the 8th will vote to repeal now. It's something quite a few people have said on the doors as well. All votes count the same like, but those ones mean a lot to me.

_Dara_

kenmc wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what, if anything, would happen if she did vote in both places anyone know? Like if you had slight amnesia and forgot you'd voted earlier that day, could that be your fault?

I'm not sure what happens if it's discovered that someone voted twice. Anyone know?

January

Think you can be jailed.

Bannasidhe

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

1983 voted against the 8th then, in spite of all the harassment and propaganda and bullying of the catholic church in its pomp, Youth Defence and IRA thugs beating up people.

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

H-Blockers chased me down Pana in '83. They didn't actually beat me up because they never caught me due to a number of fortuitous circumstances
a) I was young and fit.
b) They forgot to drop their banners and the drag slowed them down.
c) My bus driver cousin happened to be passing and slowed his bus down do I could get on.

Good Times.

:pac:

Grayson

Just her wrote: »

Well it is a developing baby as I've said before. I usually remember to say foetus as well to keep the yes from nitpicking at words instead of sticking to the point. The point is that there is a human in the womb

The nitpicking is accurate and warranted. No-one here want to kill a baby. When someone says someone is a baby killer that's inaccurate and extremely offensive.

Now what do you mean by human when you say there's human in a womb. A two day old embryo is not yet implanted but is developing. Would you consider that a human being? If that's the case I guess you're against the morning after pill. One of the thing the contraceptive pill does affect the uterus wall making implantation less likely. This means that on the off chance an egg is fertilised it can't implant. So you would have to be against that if you believe an embryo at a few days development is a person.

BTW, if anyone else wants to chime in and say that an embryo is a human being I'd like to know if they are against abortion and for the pill.

My position is that just because it's got human DNA that doesn't bestow personhood on it. Being a human being is more than just DNA.

applehunter

Consensus is life begins at conception, no?

applehunter

applehunter wrote: »

Consensus is life begins at conception, no?

Not a consensus, no. Hence this whole debate.

A fertilised egg is not of equal value to a woman, but our constitution considers it so.

Bannasidhe

applehunter wrote: »

Consensus is life begins at conception, no?

Do you consider frozen embryos alive?
Genuine question.

antiskeptic

Grayson wrote: »

My position is that just because it's got human DNA that doesn't bestow personhood on it. Being a human being is more than just DNA.

The trouble is the arbitrary means at which you draw a line in the sand.

Viability? Well abort up to then for a few years and come back and tell me what you think of all those abortions when science pushes viability back 5 weeks.

When the brain develops? Which day has it enough brain and which day not.

What happens when we don't know exactly which day the conception happened and the theoretical-person is aborted because the day of its conception was calculated to be was out a day?

If it's personhood being conferred by you (along with the world of a difference between the rights you have as a person vs non person), you can't play fast and loose with it. I mean, you could be killing hundreds of "persons" a year mistakenly.

You're playing God (and I don't mean that religiously). You can wrap it up all you like in legal-eez and medical-eez. But you'll never get to the essence of what it is to be a human

Fizzlesque

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm so sorry that you were pressurised to give your daughter up for adoption when you might not / would not have otherwise.

My wife was born in a mother and baby home and, obviously, adopted. She was lucky in that her adoptive family are wonderful and treated her just the same as her 'natural' siblings but still there are issues, she has some medical problems and having no idea of family history doesn't help there. She did try to make contact with her birth mother some years ago, but she didn't want to know. She has her own pain to process, I guess. It made it very important for my wife that she would have her own kids, they're the only blood relatives she has. Adoption is not all fun and games as the no side wants to make out.

Hi Hotblack Desiato. Thank you for your specifically-for-me reply. I guess you haven't read any of my (at this stage many) posts about my daughter's adoption. Granted, they're spaced over many years, so it's not hugely surprising you have missed them

I wasn't actively pressurised, but I was told I'd be on my own and that I'd make a mess of both our lives (that's a synopsis of a much larger story). My father is a good man but he had old fashioned ideas and I wasn't emotionally healthy at that time so I didn't believe in myself and believed I'd cause unnecessary damage to my child. Ah, it's a long story and this isn't the time or the place to get into it.

I am happy to read your wife was part of a wonderful family. My daughter's adoption is semi-open, so I have been able to keep in touch, and, more importantly, know she is well cared for. As stories go, mine is not the worst. My daughter knows I am waiting for her to get in touch - I tell her as much, every year when I send her birthday letter.

To be frank, I only had fleeting thoughts of abortion when I thought I was pregnant. As soon as the Well Woman Clinic confirmed my pregnancy, all thoughts of abortion went out the window; I was going to become a mother. And I did become a mother. I am a 'different to most' mother because even though my child grew up with an adopted mother, she's still my baby to me. I was unable to give my child the childhood she deserved so I allowed another woman to take my place - we met and agreed on continued contact and shared love for 'our' daughter. It has been many years ongoing and not always easy but it could be worse. It could be a lot worse. I could have been shut out completely. But, I would not have agreed to that.

I am glad I carried my daughter to full term and I enjoyed my pregnancy. I had a relatively easy birth and I am glad she is alive. Despite all of this, I support a woman's right to choose to end a pregnancy if she feels it that is the right decision for her. It is a million miles from easy to relinquish a child for adoption. I am sometimes haunted by my choice. Knowing your baby is out there and you can't scoop her up in your arms and let her know everything will be OK is a special form of torture I didn't know existed until I made the choice I did.

Anyway, suffice to say, I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone. I would not recommend adoption as a solution to an unplanned pregnancy. If someone had come to me and said "I'll help you if you want to keep your baby", maybe I'd have a lot less posts on Boards.ie

antiskeptic

Yes-ers playing God (and I don't mean that religiously). You can wrap it up all you like in legal-eez and medical-eez. But you'll never get to the essence of what it is to be a human

The medics have their views, the philosophers have their views, the theists have their views, the lawyers have their views, the politicians have their views.

No one can say for sure what the cut off point is for being a person as opposed to being abortable

To vote Yes is to say you're willing to take a stab at that cut off point. You, however informed you think you are by all the arguments that all the "experts" pose, are deciding to play God.

As the old saying goes. If you don't know (and you don't actually know) vote No.