8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

wingsof daun wrote: »

Maybe, but the laws for humanity must come from the Creator, man creates his own religious systems which r never perfect. Whereas, christianity is a way of life given to us by Christ. We can never accept Islam. Christ taught Thou shalt not kill, so we can;t call us a christian ppl if we perform abortions.

Can you post that in rational english please?

RobertKK wrote: »

Ruth Coppinger from the Yes side said a miscarriege is really like a heavy period.

https://twitter.com/mandygall7/status/996895713161306113?s=21

Can you in your experience rebut that? An early stage miscarriage is like a heavy period she is absolutely correct. In fact, it is thought that many pregnancies result in miscarriage before a woman even knows she is pregnant. Her choice of wording was poor and insensitive but she wasn’t wrong, at least for early stage miscarriages.

kylith wrote: »

No it doesn’t. It doesn’t have eyes, ears, lungs, kidneys, a digestive system, a nervous system, and a functioning brain.

At 18 weeks my own foetus is only now calcifying it’s skeleton and developing myelin, a protein essential for impulse conduction, on its nerve endings.

By the end of the third month, your baby is fully formed. All the organs and extremities are present and will continue to mature in order to become functional. The circulatory and urinary systems are working and the liver produces bile.

kylith wrote: »

The UN has stated that the 8th amendment is a contravention of human rights.

Either way, the rules for charities state No Politics. So either the Iona should stop campaigning or give up the benefit she of charitable status.

That mural had to be removed because it was not inside charitable remit of Project Arts:

"The rules are that you must be clear about what your charitable purpose is. And to be absolutely clear, a political purpose isn't a charitable purpose," he said.
"Now, there is a thin line there, but in Ireland we actively recognise that charities are engaged in political activities and they make a big difference in society. However, that activity must be directly related to their charitable purpose and activity."

I'm not sure I agree with regulator in case of Project Arts but I very much support the right of charities to act politically. The activities Amnesty International for example would be completely limited. I despise Iona institute but I think they are inside their rights to campaign. As are Women's Council, Atheist Ireland and others.

trixi001 wrote: »

I am very much a no supporter, as I do not believe in abortion on demand.

I do have significant concerns regarding the health care given to pregnant women, but I firmly believe this is down to medical guidelines.

The law (and the constitution) allows for abortion where the life of the mother is a risk, the risk does not have to be imminent, it just has to be real and substantial (ie in cases of cancer, abortion is allowed by the constitution, so that cancer treatment can be provided)

I have no objection to the life of the mother also including the quality of life - ie: if continuing the pregnancy is going to cause significant harm to the health of the mother, that it drastically affects her quality of life (long term), then I do support her being allowed an abortion.

I recognize that there are a number of hard cases - such as rape and FFA, however repealing the 8th will lead to hard cases such as a young pregnant woman being forced into an abortion by an abusive partner.

For FFA, who decides what is a FFA, my sister lived for only 6 weeks after she was born, should I have the right to deny a child of mine 6 weeks of life? My mum declined scans with her 2 future children, as she didn't want to know if they had the same condition.
If I have children, there is a significant chance they could have the same condition as my sister, in current Ireland the default position is that I continue with the pregnancy as normal and have my child, if the 8th is repealed will the default be abortion? It is not a decision I would want to make, as someone for whom having a child with a FFA is a real possibility, I do not support repealing the 8th and then having to decide which is the best outcome, giving birth to my son or daughter and watching them die or not even giving them the chance to be born?

Abortion is a very emotive subject, and is not the same as the same sex marriage.

Same sex marriage effected only the couple getting married, abortion affects more, if you view the unborn as a child, abortion obviously affects them, it affects fathers or potential fathers, it is not the same as the Same Sex Marriage, and a number of people who supported SSM (including me) will not be supporting repealing the 8th

You know, I agree with nearly everything you say, but then, I'm voting Yes, nearly because of everything you say.

I dont agree with Abortion on demand my self, be that for socio economic, or a lifestyle choice.

In terms of the health or risk of life to the mother, yes abortion is available in them cases, but are medical staff scared or concerned re providing abortions in these cases, incase in come back that they infact provoided an illegel abortion. Am hoping a yes vote would offer both them and the mother more legel protection and support.

In terms of Rape and abuse, not sure it would mean abusive partners forcing their wifes and girl friends into abortions, maybe the law, and even any future abortion service, should be taking more of a stance here, and stepping in, and either investigating such cases, and preventing furture cases of them. But even if there is not an abusive partner on the scene, the mother has already had one choice taken from her, should she be denied another and spend 9 months carrying a child. Yes its not the childs fault, but I can not imagine the psychological implications of an event, and the choice should be available in them cases

In terms Fatal Abnormalties, what are the projected life spans to allow for such an event, how late into the pregnacy would a termination be offered or available. I am sure if a child goes to term, the parents would love that child regardless, but then there are also possible psychological implications, and would the mother be able to conceive again, or risk to her health.

Again, I do not agree with abortion on the demand, I doubt many Yes Campaigners/Voters do either. The proposed 12 week rule does not sit comfortably with me, for me as well, its not a decision in any of the cases outlined above I would want to make, and hopfully never have to, but when you look at both our arguements, I dont want to deny someone else that decision either, and could be the better of two evils.

Its a sad and emotive subject, and its no comparsion to the same sex marriage. Personally I will be glad when this campaign is over. I dont think there will be any real winners or losers in this, apart from choice.

trixi001 wrote: »

I do not believe I have the right to choose not to let my child live, just because its life will be short.
It is not simply a matter of it being easier not to have to make the decision.
FFA's are a very emotive and complex subject - but I don't believe repealing the 8th and allowing abortion on demand for whatever reason is a price worth paying to allow people to have a abortion in cases of FFA.

Grand, nobody will be forced to have an abortion so you have nothing to be concerned about.

kylith wrote: »

The bible has no penalty for abortion until ensoulment (16-20 weeks gestation)

Interesting, can u quote the prophet and verse number?

trixi001 wrote: »

I am going on the experience of my mother and other family members, my mother was basically forced into a amnio test, so that she could travel to England for an abortion if we had the same condition of my sister - the doctors could not understand why she wouldn't want an abortion. I think she walked out and didn't go back to a doctor until she was in labour - thankfully myself and my sibling were born healthy.
From family members in England - doctors outlooks haven't changed much since then.
Having a scan and finding out your child has a FFA is horrible regardless of carrying that child to term.
This is my last post on the subject.

I’ve had two kids in England. I had my 12 week scan for all three of my kids there. Every woman is offered an amniocentesis at 12 weeks. There is no pressure to take it. The measurements taken that indicate a risk of various syndromes are not fully reliable. Which is why every woman is offered an amniocentesis. They are very clear that it carries a risk of miscarriage. Which is why many people who are told there is a risk of a given syndrome choose not to have it done. There are crappy doctors everywhere. I’m sorry your mum had such a horrible time but it doesn’t mean that will happen here or happens in the UK.

Edited to add: I also lost my first pregnancy through miscarriage. The miscarriage happened in Ireland but I was living in the UK and had been told the foetus would not make it. This was after 7 scans and several blood tests. I got the news that the pregnancy would miscarry on the phone while I was at work. I asked what my options were and told to take time to process it and to get back to them on how I wanted to proceed. I chose to schedule an ERPC (evacuation of retained products of conception). I had to travel to Ireland for family reasons in the interim. I was under no pressure to do anything. I can only see Irish doctors and nurses being equally or more sympathetic to women in those circumstances.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/mother-might-still-be-alive-but-for-eighth-amendment-gynaecologist-1.3493958?mode=amp

Please read.

Prof Kenny said she believed continuing with the pregnancy posed a substantial threat to Ms Harte’s life and thus qualified her for a termination here in Ireland, but Cork University Maternity Hospital’s ethics committee disagreed and said there was not a substantial threat to her life.

But the law as it stands is fit for purpose?!

Prof Kenny said that because of her cancer, Ms Harte could not just turn up at a clinic in the UK offering abortion services, but had instead to go to a hospital. She said the Eighth Amendment continued to have an impact in that she, as her doctor here in Ireland, could not refer her to the UK hospital.

So the 8th has a further impact that I didn't even realise it had!

SireOfSeth wrote: »

You mean: “Thou shall not murder”. Bible is pretty silent on abortion. Like totally. However Christ did say: “Love your neighbour as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.“ So surely any Christian person should vote Yes to give the choice to all women.

Abortion was very uncommon when it was written.

If I vote yes, I am supporting a killing of unborn, therefore I would be complicit in it, not that 1 vote will really infleunce the outcome. Like a group of conspirators who set out to murder someone, they are all punished by the laws of the state, even they dont perform the murder, they are sentenced because they conspired.

wingsof daun wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

The bible has no penalty for abortion until ensoulment (16-20 weeks gestation)

Interesting, can u quote the prophet and verse number?

Thanks to the skeptics annotated bible

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6
Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

meeeeh wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

The UN has stated that the 8th amendment is a contravention of human rights.

Either way, the rules for charities state No Politics. So either the Iona should stop campaigning or give up the benefit she of charitable status.

That mural had to be removed because it was not inside charitable remit of Project Arts:

"The rules are that you must be clear about what your charitable purpose is. And to be absolutely clear, a political purpose isn't a charitable purpose," he said.
"Now, there is a thin line there, but in Ireland we actively recognise that charities are engaged in political activities and they make a big difference in society. However, that activity must be directly related to their charitable purpose and activity."

I'm not sure I agree with regulator in case of Project Arts but I very much support the right of charities to act politically. The activities Amnesty International for example would be completely limited. I despise Iona institute but I think they are inside their rights to campaign. As are Women's Council, Atheist Ireland and others.

Amnesty is not a charity

From Amnesty’s website:
Fundraising Statement. As the promotion and protection of human rights is not recognised as a charitable purpose under Irish law, Amnesty International cannot register as a charity in Ireland.

trixi001 wrote: »

Yes, no one would ever force me to have an abortion, but it will be expected in cases of FFA...

Culturally we are very different from our neighbours, particularly about death. Us Irish are good at death and dying. It's our culture. We can celebrate life the person had- even the short tragic ones.

In Britain, the way they deal with dying is very different. Many employers don't give bereavement leave so you take some of your annual leave. Even after burying a parent many expect that you'd take care of that in a half day and return to work. Funerals are several weeks after the death, and even neighbours rarely attend. Children either, even if its their own beloved grandparents being buried.

I've known three different Irish couples who had a FFA diagnosis on their 20 week scan. All had the freedom and money to travel if they wanted. All chose to carry their child and to meet them, because culturally we . Others that are not able for that gruelling remaining 20 weeks and resultant funeral and bereavement travel. Neither option is easy, but I can tell you it's heartwrenching seeing a woman you love getting asked constantly for those 20 weeks if she's excited about the birth, does she know what she's having, all the while she's clinging onto her mental health with all her strength.

It's wrong to compound that suffering by expecting her to go far away from her mum and her sisters and her other children that could give her comfort to deliver her FFA baby then face an arduous journey home with empty arms when her counterparts who deliver early here get to bring their baby home for a night in a cuddle cot, the family gather to give love and support and to say hello as well as goodbye to the new relative.