8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

wexie · 17-05-2018 01:21PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

AOB will offer succour to those rape victims who can't proceed to birth. The cost is AOB. The lives of thousands.

You see, it's not about rape victims, it's about abortion for all for any reason. Rape victims and FFA is the wrapping paper.

.....I actually don't think I could disagree with you more than if you'd said the earth is flat.

And quite frankly your reasoning is as foreign to me as...well flat earthers

Just her · 17-05-2018 01:21PM

....... wrote: »

So indeed, by that logic, they dont mind about the abortions per say, they just want to shame women who have them.

Not at all. Why would you think that?

freshpopcorn · 17-05-2018 01:23PM

Has anybody seen Love Both stickers on cars?
I am amazed at seeing so many of them.(about 10) In the marriage referendum I only saw a few from either side.

NuMarvel · 17-05-2018 01:25PM

Just her wrote: »

I believe that hard cases make bad laws.

While that's the accepted wisdom, when it comes to the 8th, it's bad laws make difficult cases worse.

The 8th is the reason for many of the hard cases we've heard about; the X Case, Miss P, Amanda Mellet, Siobhan Whelan, the women in ABC v Ireland, and so many more. Many of these wouldn't have happened in the first place without the 8th. And others could have been addressed to make sure they didn't happen again. But with the 8th in place, nothing can of will change.

We're not voting on whether we agree or disagree with the proposed legislation; we're first and foremost voting on whether it should be in the constitution. And if the last 35 years have shown us anything, it's that the constitution is the last place we should put this issue. All the referendums, court cases, and human rights breaches the 8th has caused is proof of that.

Just her wrote: »

The foetus/baby is being granted no rights at all.

The unborn will continue to have protections and these will be set out in legislation. If we try to keep them in the constitution, then we will continue to tie ourselves up in knots when we try to address the rights of the woman as well.

meeeeh · 17-05-2018 01:25PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

AOB will offer succour to those rape victims who can't proceed to birth. The cost is AOB. The lives of thousands.

You see, it's not about rape victims, it's about abortion for all for any reason. Rape victims and FFA is the wrapping paper.

Even if you claim that doctors not being to able to afford complete healthcare to couple's who have to deal with FFA is just the wrapping paper, do you think other abortions don't happen in Ireland already. In fact early term abortions can be already done taking pills, all you are doing is forcing 'the wrapping paper to suffer even more than they already do. You are not preventing abortions in Ireland you are preventing proper health care. You are not saving babies you are forcing people to suffer and endanger women's health.

seamus · 17-05-2018 01:26PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

There was nothing stopping all this coming into being long ago.

Except that everyone involved in the "No" campaign have also been protesting it for years.

Why is it that the No campaign fight all attempts to improve care for women and children? Why is their "Plan 4 life" manifesto conditional on securing a "No" vote?

Why does nobody in the pro-life campaign care a single bit about pregnant women and born children?

Sofiztikated · 17-05-2018 01:27PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

In the case of rape victims it's certainly arguable. But the mechanism by which that will be granted rape victims is a bit blunter than applying to just rape victims.

The issue is abortion on demand for any reason for everyone. Rape and FFA's are the wrapping paper under which that desire is packaged.

Packaging is extremely important when you want to "sell" a product.

This might sound awful, but I don't particularly care about rape or FFA any more than I care about a girl that got pregnant from a consensual orgy.

Their reasons for wanting access to a termination isn't mine to judge.

I'd like if they could do it safely and early.

joe40 · 17-05-2018 01:27PM

KeyRead6 wrote: »

Hello everyone. I personally believe the abortion laws in Ireland should be the same as they are in the UAE. Unfortunately, the YES vote or the NO vote in the upcoming referendum will not facilitate this.

Abortion in the UAE is a crime with two exceptions: if the pregnancy endangers the mother's life or if there is evidence that the baby will be born with fatal deformities and will not survive.

Currently in Ireland the life of an expecting mothers is protected by The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act which allows abortions when a mother’s life is at risk, including by suicide.

By voting NO I do not allow women to have an abortion here in Ireland in a case where the baby will be born with fatal deformities and will not survive. I believe women in Ireland should have this right.

If I vote YES I am saying it is ok to remove a growing baby from its life support (the womb). I believe every individual has the right to make their own decision regarding ‘is life is worth living?’. Neither you nor I have the right to decide that for anyone else.

The next question is should abortion be available in the case of rape? I don’t believe taking the life of the unborn is the answer here. Allowing abortion in the case of rape and the protection of life are incompatible. We should toughen our laws for convicted rapists to further prevent this from happening.

I believe that life starts following successful implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus and that we should strive to protect it. Looking forward to a logical discussion.

The United Arab Emirates, that where we should take moral guidance from?

Ultimately an individual's views on the wrongs of abortion are a moot point in this debate.
Irish women are having abortions at the rate of over 3000 a year currently.
More importantly we as a society support this. We have given women a constitutional right to travel in order to procure this service.
(A person wishing to travel to a jurisdiction to engage in underage sex for example does not have a constitutional right to do so because we as a society do not support that because we believe it is morally wrong)

We as a society also approve of abortion by our unwillingness to prosecute women that use abortion pills from online sources.

In short Irish women are having abortions with Irish societies approval, but not our willingness to make it safer and accessible to all.

A yes vote combined with the legislation would not be some tectonic shift for Irish society if you are opposed to abortion. It will be a massive change however for the people directly affected.

Can I make this analogy, in the nature programs when you see a wolf chasing a rabbit.
Both are running as fast as they can but one is running for it lunch, one is running for it life, who has the most to lose?

A yes vote will not impact no voter to any extents, a No vote will massively impact yes voters.

_Dara_ · 17-05-2018 01:27PM

This isn’t encouraging. A collection of vox pops. Lots of undecided who mostly seem to be skewing No.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/964073/

I personally think No will win. I think that many undecideds in that clip are being quite reticent.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 17-05-2018 01:33PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

This isn’t encouraging. A collection of vox pops. Lots of undecided who mostly seem to be skewing No.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/964073/

I personally think No will win. I think that many undecideds in that clip are being quite reticent.

It's going to be incredibly close, I'm cautiously optimistic. Dublin and Cork will need to return very high yes results.

Wrongway1985 · 17-05-2018 01:34PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I have met very few atheists who are not pro choice and I have worked with a hell of a lot of them for various reasons. Both in Ireland and abroad.

While here on boards we have one atheist who is against it for the most contrived and fantastical of notions.

I'm assuming you are referring to the OP of the Aethiest voting no thread.

As an Aethiest I find it baffling myself - of course it isn't foreseen an Aethiest could vote No if that's their choosing but for the reasons put forward by the poster such as there being no separation between the consent to have sex being the same as consent to have a child should pregnancy occur due to the consent to have that sex!. Those beliefs fall more in line with followers of religion blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus eh?

Aethiest Ireland are unsurpringly calling for a Yes vote, It's expected and not gonna come under the type of torrid scrutiny you see with members of political parties who have the same openess in the stance being took.

I think it's fair to suggest those who aline themselves to a religion but can see no good from imposing their way of life those who follow differently will be making more of a difference to the overall outcome.

Just her · 17-05-2018 01:41PM

kylith wrote: »

Which is not a baby. It is developing into one.

A baby which is developing, what's the big difference? If you get in on time you can prevent it from being born and and tell yourself it's ok? Is like the sentient argument. If you just get in a couple of weeks earlier and terminate it's existence that's ok? If I had a termination my child wouldn't be here now. I would have terminated its existence. Not a bunch of cells or a non sentient non human creature. My child. If it wasn't my child I had terminated then they would be here whether I had a termination or not.

Zubeneschamali · 17-05-2018 01:41PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

30+ years in practice so a recent enough retiree. You can at least say he's see it all.

Not sure about the value of your anecdote.

I was dealing with your hypothetical about him bumping into Boylan in the canteen. I'm sure Boylan is well used to dealing with catholic fossils like him anyhow.

wingsof daun · 17-05-2018 01:41PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Very piece on the 8th on Newstalk this morning, mentioned the latest polls as 58:42 YES, 44% in favour of abortion on demand, 61% in favour of abortion when a health issue for the mother.

Then they had someone on from the Irish Muslim community, stating that they as muslims while recognising that abortion is not ideal, would be in favour of repealing the 8th and that their religion allows for abortion below 40 days on demand as they do not recognise it as an "unborn child" then, and after that if the women's health or wellbeing needed it.

When your native religion (Catholicism) offers less in the way of women's rights than Islam, you've got a problem.
No offense to muslims, I work with quite a few and I've had some great discussions about religion with them but Islam women particularly in the middle east are expected to be subservient to the menfolk.

By your logic, we should convert to Islam. Islam is somehow a beacon of light now? Modern islam is repulsive to a true christian. Religion doesn't exist to give you rights, it's to guide you back to God and to suppress evil in society. Women should be respected and treated well but women's rights is a modern day invention. Men should treat women properly, but womens rights is a fallacy and cud have detrimental consequences to society.

kylith · 17-05-2018 01:45PM

electro~bitch wrote: »

For anyone who's unaware, the ancillary recommendations of the oireachteas report on the 8th include universal free access to contraception and a overhaul of sex education, the wheels are in motion on both fronts. The Irish Pharmacy Union is proposing that they dispense hormonal contraception without a need for prescription, GPs are opposed to that.

But that would drastically reduce the strain on doctors, and free them up to do the consultations with women who don’t want to continue pregnancies that GPs say they’re too busy for.

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

Their remit is to promote religion. How are they promoting religion here?

They're promoting the moral stance of the Catholic Church, which is part of their raison d'etre. But I think you know this.

I can’t google well cos i’m On my phone, but can someone check: hasn’t Iona said that their stance on the 8th is NOT religious, and are stringently avoiding any mention of religion in their campaigning?

wexie · 17-05-2018 01:45PM

Just her wrote: »

My child.

That's right...your child....

What makes you think you should have any say in how anybody else approaches this question?

You don't think it's right, for you and you know what? That's perfectly A okay.

What's NOT okay is for you to feel that your opinions (and make no mistake what you have is an opinion, they are NOT facts) should influence anybody else's life?

RobertKK · 17-05-2018 01:46PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ruth Coppinger from the Yes side said a miscarriege is really like a heavy period.

https://twitter.com/mandygall7/status/996895713161306113?s=21

freshpopcorn · 17-05-2018 01:46PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

This isn’t encouraging. A collection of vox pops. Lots of undecided who mostly seem to be skewing No.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/964073/

I personally think No will win. I think that many undecideds in that clip are being quite reticent.

Somebody I went to school with was in that clip!

wexie · 17-05-2018 01:47PM

kylith wrote: »

I can’t google well cos i’m On my phone, but can someone check: hasn’t Iona said that their stance on the 8th is NOT religious, and are stringently avoiding any mention of religion in their campaigning?

....

How could they possibly argue that their stance on anything isn't religious?

That'd be like the Pope coming out and saying ' well actually for this particular issue I'm setting my beliefs aside and taking a secular stance'

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 17-05-2018 01:50PM

kylith wrote: »

But that would drastically reduce the strain on doctors, and free them up to do the consultations with women who don’t want to continue pregnancies that GPs say they’re too busy for.

Their arguments are that the dispenser of a product shouldn't be prescribing because they're potentially incentivised to, and that pharmacists won't have the familiarity with a patient's history that a GP usually would. I'm not sure whose position I agree with, but I'm glad to see the conversation happening.

erica74 · 17-05-2018 01:50PM

Just her wrote: »

If I had a termination my child wouldn't be here now. I would have terminated its existence.

Well, duh. You presumably didn't want an abortion, you instead wanted a child so you now have a child.
Just because you wanted a child that doesn't mean every woman wants a child. Where you had the choice to continue with your pregnancy because you wanted a child, other women do not have the choice to have an abortion because they don't want a child.

I suspect you have me on ignore at this stage because you haven't replied to any of my posts so I'm going to do the same.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 17-05-2018 01:54PM

wexie wrote: »

....

How could they possibly argue that their stance on anything isn't religious?

That'd be like the Pope coming out and saying ' well actually for this particular issue I'm setting my beliefs aside and taking a secular stance'

They are arguing against abortion on a human rights basis, but your point was that as a publicly funded charity they should not be allowed take a view. My point was that as a publicly funded charity set up to promote religious and family values in Ireland it is within their remit to take a stance on abortion. It is a totally different scenario from the Project Arts issue.

meeeeh · 17-05-2018 01:57PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Ruth Coppinger from the Yes side said a miscarriege is really like a heavy period.

https://twitter.com/mandygall7/status/996895713161306113?s=21

You mean Clare Daly? Anyway she is right for early term miscarriages and a lot of women don't even realize they having a miscarriage, they think it's the period. Bleeding can be worse and it can go wrong but that's how it looks. To me it certainly did't feel like I was loosing a baby and it was very much a wanted pregnancy.

kylith · 17-05-2018 01:58PM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

Their arguments are that the dispenser of a product shouldn't be prescribing because they're potentially incentivised to, and that pharmacists won't have the familiarity with a patient's history that a GP usually would. I'm not sure whose position I agree with, but I'm glad to see the conversation happening.

I wouldn’t have a problem with a GP doing the initial prescribing, but I was on the pill for nearly 20 years and having to go back to the doctor every 6 months for them to do nothing but say, basically, ‘same again?’ Is ridiculous. There’s no reason your pharmacy couldn’t hold an infinite prescription for you. But that’s for another thread.

kylith · 17-05-2018 02:00PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

wexie wrote: »

....

How could they possibly argue that their stance on anything isn't religious?

That'd be like the Pope coming out and saying ' well actually for this particular issue I'm setting my beliefs aside and taking a secular stance'

They are arguing against abortion on a human rights basis, but your point was that as a publicly funded charity they should not be allowed take a view. My point was that as a publicly funded charity set up to promote religious and family values in Ireland it is within their remit to take a stance on abortion. It is a totally different scenario from the Project Arts issue.

Hang in, sonthey’re arguing from a HUMAN RIGHTS basis? NOT a religious one? Then they’re outside their remit and should not be using their status as a religious charity to campaign.

RobertKK · 17-05-2018 02:01PM

meeeeh wrote: »

You mean Clare Daly? Anyway she is right for early term miscarriages and a lot of women don't even realize they having a miscarriage, they think it's the period. Bleeding can be worse and it can go wrong but that's how it looks. To me it certainly did't feel like I was loosing a baby and it was very much a wanted pregnancy.

She didn’t distinguish between when a miscarriage happened.

mirrorwall14 · 17-05-2018 02:01PM

meeeeh wrote: »

You mean Clare Daly? Anyway she is right for early term miscarriages and a lot of women don't even realize they having a miscarriage, they think it's the period. Bleeding can be worse and it can go wrong but that's how it looks. To me it certainly did't feel like I was loosing a baby and it was very much a wanted pregnancy.

I’ve miscarried. While I was devastated and completely broken after it, early miscarriage is exactly like that. I miscarried at 7 weeks. Had an hour or two of very heavy bleeding and standard period after that

kylith · 17-05-2018 02:02PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Ruth Coppinger from the Yes side said a miscarriege is really like a heavy period.

https://twitter.com/mandygall7/status/996895713161306113?s=21

Ever had a really heavy period, Robert?

trixi001 · 17-05-2018 02:03PM

I am very much a no supporter, as I do not believe in abortion on demand.

I do have significant concerns regarding the health care given to pregnant women, but I firmly believe this is down to medical guidelines.

The law (and the constitution) allows for abortion where the life of the mother is a risk, the risk does not have to be imminent, it just has to be real and substantial (ie in cases of cancer, abortion is allowed by the constitution, so that cancer treatment can be provided)

I have no objection to the life of the mother also including the quality of life - ie: if continuing the pregnancy is going to cause significant harm to the health of the mother, that it drastically affects her quality of life (long term), then I do support her being allowed an abortion.

I recognize that there are a number of hard cases - such as rape and FFA, however repealing the 8th will lead to hard cases such as a young pregnant woman being forced into an abortion by an abusive partner.

For FFA, who decides what is a FFA, my sister lived for only 6 weeks after she was born, should I have the right to deny a child of mine 6 weeks of life? My mum declined scans with her 2 future children, as she didn't want to know if they had the same condition.
If I have children, there is a significant chance they could have the same condition as my sister, in current Ireland the default position is that I continue with the pregnancy as normal and have my child, if the 8th is repealed will the default be abortion? It is not a decision I would want to make, as someone for whom having a child with a FFA is a real possibility, I do not support repealing the 8th and then having to decide which is the best outcome, giving birth to my son or daughter and watching them die or not even giving them the chance to be born?

Abortion is a very emotive subject, and is not the same as the same sex marriage.

Same sex marriage effected only the couple getting married, abortion affects more, if you view the unborn as a child, abortion obviously affects them, it affects fathers or potential fathers, it is not the same as the Same Sex Marriage, and a number of people who supported SSM (including me) will not be supporting repealing the 8th

neonsofa · 17-05-2018 02:07PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Ruth Coppinger from the Yes side said a miscarriege is really like a heavy period.

https://twitter.com/mandygall7/status/996895713161306113?s=21

Could you provide a link to the full discussion, not the entire show but just the discussion leading up to this heavily edited snippet, so we can understand the context in which the sentence was said?

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Comments