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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

  • 17-05-2018 12:40am
    #1
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭


    Mod Note: I've discussed with site admins, due to the current legal situation recommendations cannot be made for use of electric scooters on public roads in Ireland, but can be made for use on private property. However, we will allow discussion of e-scooters for purchase for use on private property, and other jurisdictions such as France/Germany where they are legal for use. This restriction will be lifted as soon as the legal situation changes, which will hopefully be soon.


    I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

    I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

    I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

    So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

    What do you think?


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Comments

  • #2
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,163 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Add the points up for driving a totally undocumented vehicle and then decide if you want to gamble that you don't meet an RPU Garda that's up on the statute.


  • #3
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,326 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    ED E wrote: »
    Add the points up for driving a totally undocumented vehicle and then decide if you want to gamble that you don't meet an RPU Garda that's up on the statute.

    Under what SI exactly?


  • #4
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,685 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Sounds like a pain driving 10km, then finding (free) parking. Then getting the scooter out for the next 5 km. And all of it in reverse back home in the evening.

    Is there no bigger range EV 2 wheeler out there that can do the whole return commuting trip from your home?


  • #5
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    goz83 wrote: »
    I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

    I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

    I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

    So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

    What do you think?

    There is no gray area they are a mechanically propelled vehicle and would require a licence, tax and insurance if they could be made road legal.


  • #6
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Get a proper petrol scooter or electric bike. You'll do 15k in about 15-25 mins.


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  • #7
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭homer911


    beauf wrote: »
    Get a proper petrol scooter or electric bike. You'll do 15k in about 15-25 mins.


    More like 40-45 on a legal ebike


  • #8
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,174 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Would your back problem preclude use of a folding bicycle?
    5k is not that far and a good quality folding bicycle might be a solution.


  • #9
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Under what SI exactly?

    Driving a mechanically propelled vehicle without insurance?


  • #10
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    ED E wrote: »
    Add the points up for driving a totally undocumented vehicle and then decide if you want to gamble that you don't meet an RPU Garda that's up on the statute.

    Under what SI exactly?
    It’s classified the same as a car.


  • #11
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    homer911 wrote: »
    More like 40-45 on a legal ebike

    Thats 12-14 mph (20-22 kmh) Which is slower than someone on a regular bicycle. On a electric bicycle you will be faster. Even allowing for traffic, and lights etc.
    In utility cycling there is a large variation; an elderly person on an upright roadster might do less than 10 km/h (6.2 mph) while a fitter or younger person could easily do twice that on the same bicycle. For cyclists in Copenhagen, the average cycling speed is 15.5 km/h (9.6 mph).[10]

    On a racing bicycle, a reasonably fit rider can ride at 40 km/h (25 mph) on flat surface.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance

    http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/speed_distance_time_calc.html

    Even when decently unfit I could do 14k in about 40~50 downhill/uphill on my bicycle.


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  • #12
    Bigus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭Bigus


    Electric bike for the whole journey might fix your back too, my mid 50's mate has fixed his long term back problems by strengthening core muscles through cycling.


  • #13
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    ED E wrote: »
    Add the points up for driving a totally undocumented vehicle and then decide if you want to gamble that you don't meet an RPU Garda that's up on the statute.

    I'm not convinced that the model I am looking at is considered an mpv if going by what the RSA state here.

    What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters?
    Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV). Under Road Traffic Law, if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles. Therefore, it must be
    roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured. The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet.

    The m365 can't go unless you scoot it first. Other models can go without any aid from the user, which would make them mpv's.
    Del2005 wrote: »
    There is no gray area they are a mechanically propelled vehicle and would require a licence, tax and insurance if they could be made road legal.

    See above. Not saying some jobsworth Garda won't disagree with that interpretation, but I also think it is very unlikely that they will pull over an adult on one of these doing around 15kmph. You'd really want to be acting the maggot to attract attention from them.
    unkel wrote: »
    Sounds like a pain driving 10km, then finding (free) parking. Then getting the scooter out for the next 5 km. And all of it in reverse back home in the evening.

    I don't see it that way. I would drive until I get to where the traffic becomes bad and park up. I could then scoot the rest of the way...much faster than being stuck in cc traffic and much kinder on my back. I have free parking in the city anyway, but I would prefer to leave the car somewhere outside the cc and go from there. The only pain is when I arrive at my destination, where do I leave the scooter.....but that's a minor issue I will figure out. Maybe reception will hold it for me.
    unkel wrote: »
    Is there no bigger range EV 2 wheeler out there that can do the whole return commuting trip from your home?

    Yes, but I don't like any of them and I think they will attract more attention. The M365 looks very like a regular kids scooter, but in adult size. It's not flashy with big tyres or any of that. Plus, they also usually don't require a push start, which makes them an mpv by definition. I also don't want to spend more than €500 on one.
    beauf wrote: »
    Get a proper petrol scooter or electric bike. You'll do 15k in about 15-25 mins.

    I am not interested in the petrol ones. Far too noisy and guaranteed to get you lifted very quickly in the city. I also prefer electric powered vehicles in general....hence the posting here. I don't like cycling....even if the e-bike was fully electric, I just don't like cycling. I find it very uncomfortable to sit on a bicycle since my back injury. Maybe in time that will change. I considered an e-scooter, but the cost, plus tax, insurance etc made it a non-runner.


  • #14
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Electric bicycles where the motor assists the cyclist (i.e. making pedalling easier, but still required) are specifically allowed. That's a new-ish law, and again, it's specifically bicycles.

    Scooters which can propel themselves unaided are unfortunately considered mechanically propelled vehicles. The one you're thinking of can, once you start it. Just like a motorbike, which requires an action from the rider to start it, but once started can propel itself.

    Worth a read:
    https://www.magireland.org/2015/news-media/warning-on-bicycle-engines-electric-scooters/


  • #15
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Electric bicycles where the motor assists the cyclist (i.e. making pedalling easier, but still required) are specifically allowed. That's a new-ish law, and again, it's specifically bicycles.

    Scooters which can propel themselves unaided are unfortunately considered mechanically propelled vehicles. The one you're thinking of can, once you start it. Just like a motorbike, which requires an action from the rider to start it, but once started can propel itself.

    Worth a read:
    https://www.magireland.org/2015/news-media/warning-on-bicycle-engines-electric-scooters/

    I had come across a similar article which pointed to RSA site. The point I am making is that the scooter does not propel itself at first. You need to turn the power on and then manually propel it before it will engage. That's not quite the same as starting a motorbike engine...even when using a kick starter. The fact is that they are propelled from a stationary position under the power of the motor alone.

    Anyway...putting all that aside.... are there instances of these electric scooters being confiscated from adults and has anyone been given points or given a court date?


  • #16
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    goz83 wrote: »
    ...What do you think?

    https://extra.ie/2017/07/28/news/irish-news/gardai-warn-scooter-tax-insurance

    I think the solution is some form of cycling. Even if you hate it.


  • #17
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    goz83 wrote: »
    I had come across a similar article which pointed to RSA site. The point I am making is that the scooter does not propel itself at first. You need to turn the power on and then manually propel it before it will engage. That's not quite the same as starting a motorbike engine...even when using a kick starter. The fact is that they are propelled from a stationary position under the power of the motor alone.

    Ok, put it like this. In certain circumstances the scooter can propel itself entirely unaided. I think that's a deal-breaker.
    goz83 wrote: »
    Anyway...putting all that aside.... are there instances of these electric scooters being confiscated from adults and has anyone been given points or given a court date?

    I very much doubt either has ever happened.


  • #18
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    goz83 wrote: »
    I had come across a similar article which pointed to RSA site. The point I am making is that the scooter does not propel itself at first. You need to turn the power on and then manually propel it before it will engage. That's not quite the same as starting a motorbike engine...even when using a kick starter. The fact is that they are propelled from a stationary position under the power of the motor alone.

    Anyway...putting all that aside.... are there instances of these electric scooters being confiscated from adults and has anyone been given points or given a court date?

    https://www.thesun.ie/news/1319836/gardai-seize-electronic-scooter-and-owner-now-faces-prosecution-for-having-no-licence-or-insurance/
    ...does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)...

    How you start it is irrelevant.

    http://irishcycle.com/2017/05/27/gardai-warn-bikes-with-petrol-engines-attached-are-low-powered-motorcycles/
    If a vehicle has a source of power which only aids a vehicle’s manual propulsion and cannot propel the vehicle on its own, then the vehicle is not an mpv for the purposes of the 1961 Act. Into this category would fall an electrically-assisted bicycle. This is because the vehicle stops when the pedalling stops,” said Sergeant Frawley.

    He added: “In relation to the electric units, electrically assisted pedal cycles are commonly referred to as ‘pedelecs’ to describe bicycles with electric motors or batteries too small to drive them without pedalling. Their speed is limited to 25km per hour and the motor cuts out if pedalling ceases. In contrast, mopeds can move without assistance of pedals. For guidance, if an electric bike can be operated without pedalling, it is a moped, ie a low-powered motorcycle and is subject to motor tax.”


  • #19
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    goz83 wrote: »
    I had come across a similar article which pointed to RSA site. The point I am making is that the scooter does not propel itself at first. You need to turn the power on and then manually propel it before it will engage. That's not quite the same as starting a motorbike engine...even when using a kick starter. The fact is that they are propelled from a stationary position under the power of the motor alone.

    Anyway...putting all that aside.... are there instances of these electric scooters being confiscated from adults and has anyone been given points or given a court date?

    My bike can be started by pushing it. Its still an MPV once it can propel itself.

    Unfortunately at this moment the Gardai are completely ignoring people using these types of MPV on the road. But it'll just take 1 incident and they will, do you want to be the first convicted? Because you'll loose your licence and have a nice phone number for insurance quotes.


  • #20
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    goz83 wrote: »
    ED E wrote: »
    Add the points up for driving a totally undocumented vehicle and then decide if you want to gamble that you don't meet an RPU Garda that's up on the statute.

    I'm not convinced that the model I am looking at is considered an mpv if going by what the RSA state here.

    What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters?
    Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV). Under Road Traffic Law, if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles. Therefore, it must be
    roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured. The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet.

    The m365 can't go unless you scoot it first. Other models can go without any aid from the user, which would make them mpv's.
    Del2005 wrote: »
    There is no gray area they are a mechanically propelled vehicle and would require a licence, tax and insurance if they could be made road legal.

    See above. Not saying some jobsworth Garda won't disagree with that interpretation, but I also think it is very unlikely that they will pull over an adult on one of these doing around 15kmph. You'd really want to be acting the maggot to attract attention from them.
    unkel wrote: »
    Sounds like a pain driving 10km, then finding (free) parking. Then getting the scooter out for the next 5 km. And all of it in reverse back home in the evening.

    I don't see it that way. I would drive until I get to where the traffic becomes bad and park up. I could then scoot the rest of the way...much faster than being stuck in cc traffic and much kinder on my back. I have free parking in the city anyway, but I would prefer to leave the car somewhere outside the cc and go from there. The only pain is when I arrive at my destination, where do I leave the scooter.....but that's a minor issue I will figure out. Maybe reception will hold it for me.
    unkel wrote: »
    Is there no bigger range EV 2 wheeler out there that can do the whole return commuting trip from your home?

    Yes, but I don't like any of them and I think they will attract more attention. The M365 looks very like a regular kids scooter, but in adult size. It's not flashy with big tyres or any of that. Plus, they also usually don't require a push start, which makes them an mpv by definition. I also don't want to spend more than €500 on one.
    beauf wrote: »
    Get a proper petrol scooter or electric bike. You'll do 15k in about 15-25 mins.

    I am not interested in the petrol ones. Far too noisy and guaranteed to get you lifted very quickly in the city. I also prefer electric powered vehicles in general....hence the posting here. I don't like cycling....even if the e-bike was fully electric, I just don't like cycling. I find it very uncomfortable to sit on a bicycle since my back injury. Maybe in time that will change. I considered an e-scooter, but the cost, plus tax, insurance etc made it a non-runner.

    Your interpretation is wrong. In electric bikes if you stop pedalling the engine cuts out.

    With the scooter once you push off , the engine continues. That’s the difference.


  • #21
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭homer911


    There's an older gent who I see on the N11, lives somewhere in the Stillorgan area, cycles a black pedelec with a mirror on the end of his right handlebar - the bike is completely illegal and I'm waiting for the day the Guards pounce on him - he powers uphill at about 40Kmh with very little effort - don't know whether to be jealous of him, or to just think that he is nuts!


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  • #22
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,163 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    ted1 wrote: »
    Your interpretation is wrong. In electric bikes if you stop pedalling the engine cuts out.

    With the scooter once you push off , the engine continues. That’s the difference.
    Exactly: I think the OP only sees what he wants to see
    homer911 wrote: »
    There's an older gent who I see on the N11, lives somewhere in the Stillorgan area, cycles a black pedelec with a mirror on the end of his right handlebar - the bike is completely illegal and I'm waiting for the day the Guards pounce on him - he powers uphill at about 40Kmh with very little effort - don't know whether to be jealous of him, or to just think that he is nuts!

    He may well have insurance, I am looking at one and its recommended for PL reasons.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #23
    peaceboi
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭peaceboi


    Another option would be to get the electric bike from Halfords through bike to work scheme, there's 1000eur priced one for sale. Says 30 miles on single charge. But don't know if advertised miles is achievable in real world ?🀔


  • #24
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Calahonda52 wrote: »


    He may well have insurance, I am looking at one and its recommended for PL reasons.

    Unless it's got a VLC and registration plate it can't be insured and with our insurance companies even then you can struggle, try getting insurance for a road legal quad.


  • #25
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    ted1 wrote: »
    Your interpretation is wrong. In electric bikes if you stop pedalling the engine cuts out.

    With the scooter once you push off , the engine continues. That’s the difference.

    What a shame. I'd get insurance if it was reasonable/possible, but it would not be possible to get any insurance for one of those. I tried to insure a road Quad years ago which was road legal in Sweden...taxed, insured the whole lot. No hope over here unless you are using it on farm land. Looks like I'll just be another single occupant in a car, adding to the congestion in the cc.
    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Exactly: I think the OP only sees what he wants to see

    Not quite Cala. Was more hoping that the technicality would stick.


  • #26
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    goz83 wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Your interpretation is wrong. In electric bikes if you stop pedalling the engine cuts out.

    With the scooter once you push off , the engine continues. That’s the difference.

    What a shame. I'd get insurance if it was reasonable/possible, but it would not be possible to get any insurance for one of those. I tried to insure a road Quad years ago which was road legal in Sweden...taxed, insured the whole lot. No hope over here unless you are using it on farm land. Looks like I'll just be another single occupant in a car, adding to the congestion in the cc.
    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Exactly: I think the OP only sees what he wants to see

    Not quite Cala. Was more hoping that the technicality would stick.
    Pop into greenaer off Pearse Street and test drive One of their electric bikes


  • #27
    jsd1004
    Registered Users Posts: 712 ✭✭✭jsd1004


    Is every kid on a hoverboard breaking the law in a park/footpaths etc.


  • #28
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    jsd1004 wrote: »
    Is every kid on a hoverboard breaking the law in a park/footpaths etc.
    Yes

    https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/ireland-self-balancing-scooter-2382939-Oct2015/?amp=1


  • #29
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,163 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    ted1 wrote: »
    Pop into greenaer off Pearse Street and test drive One of their electric bikes

    They have two A2B KUO foldables, the more expensive is a throttle assisted version, and they will advise you to take out insurance for using it

    http://www.greenaer.ie/product/a2b-kuo-folding-ebike/ this one is the pedelec

    OP: How about
    https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/what-constitutes-pay/items-not-treated-as-pay/provision-of-bicycles-for-directors-and-employees.aspx

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #30
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Pop into greenaer off Pearse Street and test drive One of their electric bikes

    They have two A2B KUO foldables, the more expensive is a throttle assisted version, and they will advise you to take out insurance for using it

    http://www.greenaer.ie/product/a2b-kuo-folding-ebike/ this one is the pedelec

    OP: How about
    https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/what-constitutes-pay/items-not-treated-as-pay/provision-of-bicycles-for-directors-and-employees.aspx

    I actually meant their regular e bikes. With only 15kmits hardly worth taking the car at all.


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  • #31
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Del2005 wrote: »
    But it'll just take 1 incident and they will, do you want to be the first convicted? Because you'll loose your licence and have a nice phone number for insurance quotes.

    I will grow very old before that happens. There are serial f$$$$rs being caught driving cars without insurance and while being banned. And NOTHING happens to them, they constantly get a snap on the hand and that's it.

    You seriously thing that anything will be done to one scooting on m365?


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