8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

SusieBlue · 15-05-2018 11:11AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

This is fundamentally a conscience issue. It centres on whether life in the womb is fully human - though different to a walking talking person.

That can be rationalised away by various means but it remains the central issue.

A person asked whether they feel they did a wrong thing or not isnt necessarily going to give a true answer. Not least to themselves.

Your 'science' cant test for that

I posted that in response to someone stating that women in the audience regretted their abortions, and nurses saw how abortion was detrimental to mental health because of trauma.

I'm showing that this isn't the case and that 97% of women do not have regrets.

As for the bolded, when questioning whether those who have had abortions experience regret, I think actually asking people is a good measure of getting the truth.

lawred2 · 15-05-2018 11:13AM

bruschi wrote: »

I dont think it will, at all. I think the shouting and apparent facts will sway the dont knows to no. People like to say that they will research and make informed decisions, no they wont. If they havent done so already, they never will. If they are using a bogus debate as their source, then that says the type of voter they are.

There are thousands out there who havent a clue about the facts and will blurb off crap they hear some person say as actual fact. I despair looking at some of the stuff written online. Even some of the stuff last night, over emotional irrational rubbish but gets presented as fact without challenge.

I dont believe last night will have helped the yes side i any shape or form. People who think the yes side did well or that the no side disgraced themselves are already yes voters. For the first time since this referendum was announced, I genuinely feel the no side are going to win. And that is a horrible situation to be in.

There are enough people out there to vote yes, but the apathy shown in referendum turnouts needs to change. There was a 60% turnout for the SSM referendum. Usually the low turnout is to do with younger people. For the yes vote to go through, it needs a big turn out.

it's how popular votes are won now

Trump, Brexit and now this... All coloured by the same simple tactics. Should loudest, hardest and lie the best and you'll win.

It works and it's very hard to argue against.

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:14AM

The psychological society of ireland came out for yes.

I noticed they cited a study by a pro choice agency in the states in support of their 'fact based' view.

I also noted research they cited which found there was no mental health difference in women of crisis pregnancies who aborted or went full term

Funny choice of research!

....... · 15-05-2018 11:14AM

This post has been deleted.

SusieBlue · 15-05-2018 11:14AM

lawred2 wrote: »

it's how popular votes are won now

Trump, Brexit and now this... All coloured by the same simple tactics. Should loudest, hardest and lie the best and you'll win.

It works and it's very hard to argue against.

Throw enough sh*t at the wall and some bits will stick. They are just making an effort to confuse people now.
Shady tactics and very dishonest. That Maria Steen is an absolute weapon.

15-05-2018 11:14AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

The same way they investigate any illegal drug use or importation.

ahh, OK yes under the Misuse of Drugs Act, I presumed we were talking about prosecuting for actually having the abortion.

my mistake

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:16AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I posted that in response to someone stating that women in the audience regretted their abortions, and nurses saw how abortion was detrimental to mental health because of trauma.

I'm showing that this isn't the case and that 97% of women do not have regrets.

As for the bolded, when questioning whether those who have had abortions experience regret, I think actually asking people is a good measure of getting the truth.

And I gave a reasonable reason for supposing it not a good way to get at the truth.

Moiratat · 15-05-2018 11:16AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

A healthy baby, and healthy mother, so the vast majority of cases

I was healthy and my baby too, so are you saying I had a "social abortion"? But many posters on here have been unwilling to comment on my situation as it is what you'd describe as a hard case. So was it a " hard case social abortion "? How would you feel about that?

Yeah_Right · 15-05-2018 11:16AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

Or social abortion as it was called last night, not the very small % of hard cases, that should have been legislated for.

So you agree that abortion laws should be dealt with through legislation. Excellent. I guess that means you're voting repeal then.

Ave Sodalis · 15-05-2018 11:18AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

1.fair ball.

2. Repeal doesnt encourage your approach. It simply moves the rug under which crisis pregnancies are currently being swept to this side of the Irish Sea.

I dont have all the answers. Im for liberalisation. But not this. Not a.o.d.

My point is my "approach" is not effective enough to be relied on.

I agree. But we are being asked to make this great leap forward. Past a society that places abortion as an option of last resort to of first resort. Wheres the support. Wheres the free contrceptives. Wheres tackling dads who flee the scene. Wheres se education. Wheres adoption.

Nah: the blunt instrument, the cheapest option.

Abortion is not the first resort.

They vary tremendously. A.o.b. will cater for the most noble of cases (the ones Yes are focusing on). It will cater for the most ignoble cases (the ones Yes wouldnt touch with a bargepole). And everthing in between.

People can be extremely selfish. Especially when they find themselves somewhere they really dont want to be.

What cases won't the Yes touch with a barge pole?

SusieBlue · 15-05-2018 11:18AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

And I gave a reasonable reason for supposing it not a good way to get at the truth.

No you didn't. You don't think asking women who have had abortions if they regret it is a good way of measuring if women who have had abortions experience regret.
You are talking nonsense.

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:18AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

By fully human I mean fully human. Not fully human with equivocation. Your equivocating: which was my point.

Dyr · 15-05-2018 11:19AM

We're going to have tighten up a few laws regarding foreign interests interfering in Irish political life methinks.

A constitutional amendment perhaps

erica74 · 15-05-2018 11:20AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

A healthy baby, and healthy mother, so the vast majority of cases

How do you know either the baby and/or mother in the vast majority of cases were healthy? Physically or mentally healthy? Emotionally healthy? Economically healthy?

AnneFrank wrote: »

The two lady Gp's who worked in the Uk said having an abortion was worse for the woman's long term mental health.
The yes side really need more than the very low % of hard cases to convince people or they will lose, i never thought that a few weeks ago, the tide has certainly turned

No person can make that claim. Nobody, even if they are a GP, can deal in absolutes because every woman and every pregnancy is different and unique.

Ave Sodalis · 15-05-2018 11:21AM

Bambi wrote: »

We're going to have tighten up a few laws regarding foreign interests interfering in Irish political life methinks.

A constitutional amendment perhaps

I think if this referendum shows us anything, it's that we seriously need more laws regarding what is and isn't allowed as a whole. Not just foreign interests, but lies and poster regulation too.

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:23AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

No you didn't. You don't think asking women who have had abortions if they regret it is a good way of measuring if women who have had abortions experience regret.
You are talking nonsense.

A survey asking people to rate themselves on a moral scale of 1-10 found folk typically give themselves a 7. Not saints, but not bad eggs at root. The same results were achieved in prisons - even among serious offenders.

You have heard that everyone in prison reckons their innocent.

Asking someone whether they think they did wrong is hardly likely to produce objective results.

Else we wouldnt need judges.

AnneFrank · 15-05-2018 11:24AM

Ah back to the back slapping echo chamber i see, same old hard case arguments, or a child in a womb is not a baby it's the thought of a baby crap. May the no side win. #savethe8th

splinter65 · 15-05-2018 11:25AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I can actually think of a lot of reasons someone might have had 2 or 3 abortions.
Genetic conditions effecting the baby, addiction/mental health issues, domestic violence in the home, contraceptive failure, I could go on.

The reality is that its none of my business. And it seems like you are trying to imply these people are reckless and irresponsible to end up unintentionally pregnant more than once - if that's the case why on earth are you advocating trusting them with an innocent child?

Will you accept that some of the 38% are recklessly and irresponsibly becoming pregnant on multiple occasions and availing of abortion as a means of contraception or are you absolutely insisting that this just doesn’t happen?

....... · 15-05-2018 11:26AM

This post has been deleted.

robarmstrong · 15-05-2018 11:27AM

splinter65 wrote: »

Will you accept that some of the 38% are recklessly and irresponsibly becoming pregnant on multiple occasions and availing of abortion as a means of contraception or are you absolutely insisting that this just doesn’t happen?

How is abortion a means of contraception?

Do you know what contraception is? Contraception prevents pregnancy from occurring, it does not end a pregnancy.

....... · 15-05-2018 11:27AM

This post has been deleted.

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:28AM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

What cases won't the Yes touch with a barge pole?

Cases where the pregancy came about through utter carelessness. Cases where bodily auonomy lost thus os wanted back for the most selfish and puerile reasons.

You dont think there are careless, selfish, puerile people out there?

lawred2 · 15-05-2018 11:29AM

splinter65 wrote: »

Will you accept that some of the 38% are recklessly and irresponsibly becoming pregnant on multiple occasions and availing of abortion as a means of contraception or are you absolutely insisting that this just doesn’t happen?

why would someone accept that? it's a falsehood.

contraception prevents conception

it's right there in the name

....... · 15-05-2018 11:29AM

This post has been deleted.

lawred2 · 15-05-2018 11:30AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

This is fundamentally a conscience issue. It centres on whether life in the womb is fully human - though different to a walking talking person.

That can be rationalised away by various means but it remains the central issue.

A person asked whether they feel they did a wrong thing or not isnt necessarily going to give a true answer. Not least to themselves.

Your 'science' cant test for that

oh oh....

....... · 15-05-2018 11:30AM

This post has been deleted.

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:30AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your effectively saying the fetus isnt fully human enough. Which is grand - not fully human.

SusieBlue · 15-05-2018 11:31AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

A survey asking people to rate themselves on a moral scale of 1-10 found folk typically give themselves a 7. Not saints, but not bad eggs at root. The same results were achieved in prisons - even among serious offenders.

You have heard that everyone in prison reckons their innocent.

Asking someone whether they think they did wrong is hardly likely to produce objective results.

Else we wouldnt need judges.

So who in your opinion, is the best judge of whether a woman personally feels regret after an abortion, if not the woman herself?

I won't lie, its almost funny that you are once again dismissing a woman's opinion on a matter, especially when that matter specifically relates to her own personal circumstances.
Can't say I'm surprised though.

Ave Sodalis · 15-05-2018 11:31AM

I have a question for the No voters currently on the thread....

I don't want children. Due to severe traumas of various types, the thought of having children makes me feel sick. I use three types of contraception, and I would get sterilised if I could (but I can't). If the three types fail, which can happen, I will be having an abortion. Adoption is not an option, due to the nature of some of those traumas, I would not be able to cope. If my partner does not want to help fund a trip to the UK (which he has a right not to do), then I will order pills online. If those pills get stopped, then I will do whatever physically necessary to stop the pregnancy, up to and including death. A bit morbid, maybe but I'm not going to go into my past on this thread. I don't particularly want to die, but my feels on pregnancy and having children are that strong.

My question to you is: should I be arrested and sent to prison?

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:31AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your failure to answer the question is noted. Careless, selfish, puerile doesnt mean whore.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Comments