8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

lawred2

AnneFrank wrote: »

Ah back to the back slapping echo chamber i see, same old hard case arguments, or a child in a womb is not a baby it's the thought of a baby crap. May the no side win. #savethe8th

any chance you'd have a think about the objective reliability of personal agenda based testimony from two doctors?

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

Will you accept that some of the 38% are recklessly and irresponsibly becoming pregnant on multiple occasions and availing of abortion as a means of contraception or are you absolutely insisting that this just doesn’t happen?

why would anybody accept something that you have asserted without evidence?

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This post has been deleted.

Yeah_Right

splinter65 wrote: »

Will you accept that some of the 38% are recklessly and irresponsibly becoming pregnant on multiple occasions and availing of abortion as a means of contraception or are you absolutely insisting that this just doesn’t happen?

I am certain it happens. I'm also certain that the number of women that have multiple abortions because they choose not to use contraception is less than the number that need an abortion for rape. Or FFA. Or any one of the various "hard cases" that you are against.

B0jangles

So I just found out I was secretly filmed last week when talking to pro-lifers and they've put it up on one of their facebook pages!

Naturally they've lied about the circumstances and are pretending that they were just walking along when an obstreperous pro-choicer started literally speaking to them in public, when in fact there were dozens of them out canvassing in a small area - all wearing his-vis jackets handing out leaflets and of course, lying about the 2013 legistation.

Funny thing is the majority of FB commentors are saying that I was making a lot of sense and why did they think the video helped the No side

robarmstrong

Certain No voters -

"What about the reckless and irresponsible whores getting pregnant due to carelessness regarding contraception?!"

"No we aren't misogynists, we respect women, #loveboth"

SusieBlue

splinter65 wrote: »

Will you accept that some of the 38% are recklessly and irresponsibly becoming pregnant on multiple occasions and availing of abortion as a means of contraception or are you absolutely insisting that this just doesn’t happen?

Of course I do. People aren't perfect.
I don't think its used as contraception, because who on earth would force themselves into having an induced miscarriage rather than use a condom?

But I do think some of that percentage are just reckless people. But I also firmly believe that those people would make crap parents and don't believe that its in the best interests of the child to force parenthood on them as some sort of warped punishment.

Ave Sodalis

antiskeptic wrote: »

Cases where the pregancy came about through utter carelessness. Cases where bodily auonomy lost thus os wanted back for the most selfish and puerile reasons.

You dont think there are careless, selfish, puerile people out there?

Of course there are. Should they be denied an abortion? No. Should others be punished for their actions? No.

Shadowstrife

Yes voters, get out and canvass if you can. Contact 'Volunteer TogetherForYes' to sign-up to local canvassing.

Every Yes vote counts. It's not that hard. CarPool lifts for people. Leaflet/flyer drops. Thanks!

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

AnneFrank wrote: »

Ah back to the back slapping echo chamber i see, same old hard case arguments, or a child in a womb is not a baby it's the thought of a baby crap. May the no side win. #savethe8th

Hmm, so your mental health stuff got shown up as BS.

Ignore that, get salty and snarky, belittle people's personal traumas because they're inconvenient for you, throw in a hashtag.

Thank you for all the good work you do for the yes side.

Wrongway1985

blanch152 wrote: »

I found the whooping and hollering of the pro-lifers in the audience to be particularly disgusting. This was a serious topic that they treated like a football match.

To put down was the tactic it was atrocious to think some of those were elected representatives.

It was hardly a debate it was a platform RTE facilitated for No soundbytes. Mary Butler was allowed say 97% in the UK abortions are healthy baby's, Yes were cut off as irrelevant that a 14 year prison term for those who concocted their own methods to have one here as there was no prosecutions. Some woman telling about her miscarriage that her 14 week dead foetus that she held was enjoying life...im sorry but that's the mad notes.

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

Ah back to the back slapping echo chamber i see, same old hard case arguments, or a child in a womb is not a baby it's the thought of a baby crap. May the no side win. #savethe8th

You actually can't help yourself.
You remind me of the time my neighbours 3 year old kept saying the F word for a reaction, because he'd been told it was rude and not to.

You shouldn't have to be told this many times that it is nasty and vindictive and insensitive to take the p*ss out of someone elses miscarriage to further your point.
Its disgusting and shameful and I'm actually mortified for you that you proclaim to #LoveBoth yet continue to do this.
You are a hypocrite.

neonsofa

antiskeptic wrote: »

This is fundamentally a conscience issue. It centres on whether life in the womb is fully human - though different to a walking talking person.

That can be rationalised away by various means but it remains the central issue.

A person asked whether they feel they did a wrong thing or not isnt necessarily going to give a true answer. Not least to themselves.

Your 'science' cant test for that

In the same way that not all women who followed through with their crisis pregnancy is going to answer truthfully about whether they made the right decision or if they would have preferred to have had a termination as they were not ready or able for motherhood. Very difficult to say that when there is a child resulting from the decision who in the majority of cases is very much loved for who they are and what they've become, but that doesnt make the actual decision the correct one for their circumstances and the resulting child, and loving the child doesnt change that.

johnpatrick81

It was a national embarrassment (the "debate"), Claire Byrne should be ashamed. Anyone with an ounce of cop on would have cut the whooping and cheering off after 5 minutes. Bizarre stuff all round. The No crowd were by far the more rude and delirious though. I've gone from being torn on the issue to a staunch Yes after the debacle last night. Horrendous stuff from the No side.

antiskeptic

SusieBlue wrote: »

So who in your opinion, is the best judge of whether a woman personally feels regret after an abortion, if not the woman herself?

I dont think its to be measured objectively. Youd need God or something. And he doesnt tend to publish scientific papers.

I won't lie, its almost funny that you are once again dismissing a woman's opinion on a matter, especially when that matter specifically relates to her own personal circumstances.
Can't say I'm surprised though.

Im merely pointing out a problem. It applies to any situation where you ask folk to effectively self condemn.

It aint going to happen. Dressing it up as science doesnt alter things.

Dya ever see those 'scientific' studies measuring the power of prayer?

A bunch of christians set to praying for healing of the sick or something.

It presupposes God (if he's there) wants to be measured. It presupposes the christians praying are (if there is a God and people who can pray for such things) christians just because they say so.

That some science aint science cant be helped.

SusieBlue

antiskeptic wrote: »

Your failure to answer the question is noted. Careless, selfish, puerile doesnt mean whore.

You haven't answered the question.
If the opinion of the woman who got the abortion is not an appropriate means to measure whether women who get abortions experience regret, who is the best person to ask?
You, is it?

Dressing gown

splinter65 wrote: »

Will you accept that some of the 38% are recklessly and irresponsibly becoming pregnant on multiple occasions and availing of abortion as a means of contraception or are you absolutely insisting that this just doesn’t happen?

Of course that happens. But news flash. This is not the UK. If it’s was, abortion would have been legal here since the 60’s. The level of education in the UK is abysmal. There are far many more uneducated people and people in poverty. The average age of someone aborting is 22. So what does that tell you? It tells you there are a serious number of young people having abortions. If we want abortion numbers to come down education is the way forward. A law that is not enforced is worth nothing. Contravening the 8th amendment is not enforced. As a yes voter I think it should be. If the law actually did what is supposed to do and dealt with people having illegal abortions in Ireland I guarantee you there would be a slam dunk on the yes side. Keep telling yourself the no vote is saving babies. That’s just lying to yourself. It’s saving no one.

antiskeptic

neonsofa wrote: »

In the same way that not all women who followed through with their crisis pregnancy is going to answer truthfully about whether they made the right decision or if they would have preferred to have had a termination as they were not ready or able for motherhood. Very difficult to say that when there is a child resulting from the decision who in the majority of cases is very much loved for who they are and what they've become, but that doesnt make the actual decision the correct one for their circumstances and the resulting child, and loving the child doesnt change that.

Agreed. But some issues really are non starters. Asking a person to self condemn is one them.

Shadowstrife

I studied Debate in college ans an extra-curricular for a few months before I dropped it.

I can't stand Maria Steen, but I will concede that she is an expert debater and is a snake in the long grass, she baited Brid and others into well-laid traps. They played right into her fingers.

Steen is the Iona's secret weapon. She is quite brilliant, if she wasn't so reprehensible and deplorable.

SusieBlue

antiskeptic wrote: »

I dont think its to be measured objectively. Youd need God or something. And he doesnt tend to publish scientific papers.



Im merely pointing out a problem. It applies to any situation where you ask folk to effectively self condemn.

It aint going to happen. Dressing it up as science doesnt alter things.

Dya ever see those 'scientific' studies measuring the power of prayer?

A bunch of christians set to praying for healing of the sick or something.

It presupposes God (if he's there) wants to be measured. It presupposes the christians praying are (if there is a God and people who can pray for such things) christians just because they say so.

That some science aint science cant be helped.

What a load of absolute nonsense. I'm not even going to justify that with an answer. You are word salading again and dancing around the issue.

Of COURSE women who get abortions are the best people to ask about regret after abortions. It shouldn't even be up for debate. I won't even entertain any other notion about God or whatever else you were on about.
The only measure we have is these women.

If the No side are allowed to use women who experience regret to further their cause, I'm allowed to show a study that 97% of women do not have regrets. You can't have it every way.

ohnonotgmail

antiskeptic wrote: »

Agreed. But some issues really are non starters. Asking a person to self condemn is one them.

Asking somebody if they regret an abortion is not asking them to condemn themselves.

antiskeptic

SusieBlue wrote: »

You haven't answered the question.
If the opinion of the woman who got the abortion is not an appropriate means to measure whether women who get abortions experience regret, who is the best person to ask?
You, is it?

Not me no. I dont think an answer can be found to some questions by anyone. This is o e of those times.

Ave Sodalis

antiskeptic- should I be arrested and imprisoned?

ohnonotgmail

antiskeptic wrote: »

Not me no. I dont think an answer can be found to some questions by anyone. This is o e of those times.

but you are happy to accept the opinion of 2 anti-choice GPs that abortions are bad for womens mental health? Bearing in mind it is only an opinion.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

antiskeptic wrote: »

Not me no. I dont think an answer can be found to some questions by anyone. This is o e of those times.

A reasonably good stab can be made though, and not just by self-reporting. Measurable outcomes like the likelihood of presenting to a mental health service in the following years can be taken into account for example.

Any studies with proper methodology seem to suggest that abortion does not have a negative effect on mental health, which would strongly suggest to me that the decision is not regretted.

Also, it's not something that tends to be brought up out of the blue, but as a direct response to the LIE that abortion leads to suicide and serious mental health problems.

This can be an annoyingly tit for tat debate in general, but when they keeps throwing all them tits you gots to tat...

AnneFrank

SusieBlue wrote: »

You actually can't help yourself.
You remind me of the time my neighbours 3 year old kept saying the F word for a reaction, because he'd been told it was rude and not to.

You shouldn't have to be told this many times that it is nasty and vindictive and insensitive to take the p*ss out of someone elses miscarriage to further your point.
Its disgusting and shameful and I'm actually mortified for you that you proclaim to #LoveBoth yet continue to do this.
You are a hypocrite.

Except i haven't mentioned miscarriage at all.
So if you can't make it about poor susieblue you just make things up ?

robarmstrong

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

This can be an annoyingly tit for tat debate in general, but when they keeps throwing all them tits

This made me laugh well more than it should have.

Mental image of people from both campaigns just throwing tits at eachother.

ohnonotgmail

AnneFrank wrote: »

Except i haven't mentioned miscarriage at all.
So if you can't make it about poor susieblue you just make things up ?

there you go again taking a potshot at an individual who had a miscarriage. Your posts are an embarrassment to this site.

Ave Sodalis

AnneFrank wrote: »

Except i haven't mentioned miscarriage at all.
So if you can't make it about poor susieblue you just make things up ?

Now you're mocking someone developing cancer who the 8th affects directly... jesus, can you sink any further?

Hammer Archer

AnneFrank wrote: »

Except i haven't mentioned miscarriage at all.
So if you can't make it about poor susieblue you just make things up ?

Parody of yourself at this stage. Your posts truly are so so hateful.