Half of Gardaí can't give chase or use siren

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich · 14-05-2018 12:59PM

What do the Garda actually do? They seem to just be a tax collecting force, trying to catch people speeding etc to issue fines. Meanwhile Dublin City has open drug dealing, zombies everywhere, and the likes of the carry on in Finglas. Our police force look pathetic, their uniforms are so dated, compare them to Spanish or German police and you'd wonder why anyone would respect them.
I wonder if your average Garda is afraid of the scumbags in Finglas and travelers etc. They continually blatantly break the law and cause disturbances yet nothing is done about it.

wexie · 14-05-2018 01:00PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

That's possibly one of the reasons there is very little enforcement on roads. It should be a requirement that within 6 months of turning out from Templemore that they are trained to the level necessary.

eeeeh...no!!!

they should be qualified before leaving Templemore....

Odhinn · 14-05-2018 01:03PM

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Why do they need training to operate a flashy blue light!

This is a national disgrace, no wonder the Gardai are a laughing stock

It's not just operating a flashy blue light.

It's balancing a flashy blue light while making siren noises and running at the same time.

lawred2 · 14-05-2018 01:05PM

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Story coming out today that HALF or Gardai can't give chase at speed OR use their siren as they are not qualified.

If an unqualified Garda wants to pull over a car he has to resort to flashing his headlights in the HOPE the car pulls over.

What. The. Fcuk.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/concerns-over-lack-of-training-as-half-of-gardai-cant-give-chase-or-use-siren-842692.html

I hope this in't a union demarcation thing

Captain Obvious · 14-05-2018 01:19PM

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

What do the Garda actually do? They seem to just be a tax collecting force, trying to catch people speeding etc to issue fines. Meanwhile Dublin City has open drug dealing, zombies everywhere, and the likes of the carry on in Finglas. Our police force look pathetic, their uniforms are so dated, compare them to Spanish or German police and you'd wonder why anyone would respect them.
I wonder if your average Garda is afraid of the scumbags in Finglas and travelers etc. They continually blatantly break the law and cause disturbances yet nothing is done about it.

Approximately 1000 Gardaí are injured a year. It's certainly not from checking tax on cars.

Vladimir Poontang · 14-05-2018 01:26PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Approximately 1000 Gardaí are injured a year. It's certainly not from checking tax on cars.

Yeah, a lot of it is because they have only a stick to defend themselves, which they hesitate to use because of the reams of paperwork afterwards.

Not. Fit. For. Purpose.

And it's the Government's fault. Not the Gardai

Beta Ray Bill · 14-05-2018 01:31PM

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

What do the Garda actually do? They seem to just be a tax collecting force, trying to catch people speeding etc to issue fines. Meanwhile Dublin City has open drug dealing, zombies everywhere, and the likes of the carry on in Finglas. Our police force look pathetic, their uniforms are so dated, compare them to Spanish or German police and you'd wonder why anyone would respect them.
I wonder if your average Garda is afraid of the scumbags in Finglas and travelers etc. They continually blatantly break the law and cause disturbances yet nothing is done about it.

This is a very unfair post.
The Garda are stuck in a rut in terms of management and effectiveness.
They have major investment but it's going to the wrong places/people

My mate is Garda and there are shifts that he does where a car is not available and they have to go on foot. He doesn't mind this, but if he arrests someone he has to wait for a Car/Van to come and pick up the prisoner, meanwhile the prisoners mates show up and start giving him grief. There is a major shortage of equipment in the Garda and that's no secret.
That being said, Accenture was paid €26,500,000 in 2016 for services and work down across various projects...

To put that in perspective a Ford Focus which is a perfect Garda Car starts at €20,995. That equates to approx 1262 Cars... For just one year!!!!!

In terms of arresting the scumbags, they do it all the time. but the prisons are full so they all just get a suspended sentence and are released back onto the street. My mate says he's arresting the same people all the time. Can you just imagine how demoralising that would be?
Speaking of Moral, at least 8 Garda have committed suicide since Christmas... It's a tough Job.

In terms of fear, you'd be afraid too if you and your partner were confronted by load of scumbags with bats at the back of an alley with backup being a few 5 mins away. Link

It no secret among the criminal class that the chances of being caught by and an under resourced police force, convicted by a light touch judicial system, and imprisoned in an over populated prison system are extremely low.
You only have to look at the chances these skangers willing take nowadays:
- Unrest in tallaght during the snow
- Gang beating up a Garda
- Serious vandalism of a Train
- Joy riding in Finglas
All within the last few months.

We need more prisons ASAP. IMO it is the most critical long term issue in the country at the moment.

Subcomandante Marcos · 14-05-2018 01:33PM

Shouldn't the advanced driving course be part or the curriculum at templemore?

Captain Obvious · 14-05-2018 01:49PM

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Shouldn't the advanced driving course be part or the curriculum at templemore?

Not feasible. Takes one instructor for three members for three weeks.

RoboRat · 14-05-2018 01:58PM

Recruit the joy riders to be the drivers!

seamus · 14-05-2018 02:13PM

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Shouldn't the advanced driving course be part or the curriculum at templemore?

Why?

As some others have pointed out on this thread, there are many good reasons why a Garda may not be sufficiently trained, why it not always necessary for them to be trained, and the limited circumstances in which pursuit driving is actually called for.

Let's ignore pursuit driving because that's a red herring here.

Basic use of the sirens for traffic control, attending situations, etc, is important. But how many Gardai actually need to be trained to this level? There isn't a car for every Garda. Thousands of Gardai don't even step out from behind a desk, many others spend the majority of their time on their feet.

In an ideal world every Garda would have the skill and training to jump in a Garda car and stick on the siren and speed off. But in a realistic world some people will just be incapable of meeting the standard to pass this requirement, and will never meet it. And thousands of other Gardai will be driving the car so infrequently that calling them "qualified" may actually be more dangerous than not training them at all.

So before we can foam at the mouth about the number of untrained Gardai, we need to know what the number of trained Gardai should be.

It's also worth noting that this 50% is a speculatory figure from the GRA, and may be completely made up.

irishproduce · 14-05-2018 02:49PM

grahambo wrote: »

This has come out in light of the Skangers driving robbed cars in Finglas.
The video on Social media shows chaotic scenes which most people were shocked by.
What a lot of people don't realise is that this type of thing goes on most weekends in that part of Finglas.
Look at the tyre marks on the ground in google maps:
https://goo.gl/maps/F95PtFo3iGP2

That person made the mistake of recording the video and posting it to social media. They have probably had all their windows put through at this point.

The Garda don't need to be able to pursue these little skangers.
The Scummers want a chase off the Garda. The Garda have a policy of non-engagement. They already know who they are, so they just pick them up after.
The reason for non-engagement is simple. The skangers ram Garda cars and a pursuit is V.Dangerous to the public.
Damaged Garda car is not good, It's means a car is off the road for a week or two while it's repaired, plus the cost of the repair.
Add to that even if they catch the little skangers nothing happens, the prisons are full, there is no where to put them so they just let them go with a suspended sentence.

We need more Prisions

I have said this on another thread, around the time of the LIDL roof being torn off.
When your local representatives are coming asking for your vote, you need to be asking them if they will pursue the addition of new prisons and prison spaces.
The judges do not sentence to prison because they know there is no room. The Dail does not adjust the laws governing what one can be sent to prison for because they're also aware there is no room.
Someone needs to commit funding to the country's future by putting aside money for a new prison. The judges will be able to sentence properly and the Dail will be able to adjust laws properly so offenders can be locked up.

No one should be subject to their little children having to watch people screech and ram cars as if in destruction derby outside their front door.
Disgraceful that these people are not either in prison or on education programmes where they are off the street.

micosoft · 14-05-2018 03:03PM

grahambo wrote: »

We need more prisons ASAP. IMO it is the most critical long term issue in the country at the moment.

And how exactly has that worked out for the US? What % of our population should be in prison? 10%? Do you think your tax dodger or joyrider leaves prison to become a productive member of society or goes on to commit more crime. Like 62%.

Let's be Norway who have one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20%, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

IMO building more schools for crime is the (no exaggeration) the least critical long term issue in this country by a mile.

Graces7 · 14-05-2018 03:11PM

micosoft wrote: »

And how exactly has that worked out for the US? What % of our population should be in prison? 10%? Do you think your tax dodger or joyrider leaves prison to become a productive member of society or goes on to commit more crime. Like 62%.

Let's be Norway who have one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20%, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

IMO building more schools for crime is the (no exaggeration) the least critical long term issue in this country by a mile.

You beat me to it. Well said

opinionated3 · 14-05-2018 03:12PM

grahambo wrote: »

This is a very unfair post.
The Garda are stuck in a rut in terms of management and effectiveness.
They have major investment but it's going to the wrong places/people

My mate is Garda and there are shifts that he does where a car is not available and they have to go on foot. He doesn't mind this, but if he arrests someone he has to wait for a Car/Van to come and pick up the prisoner, meanwhile the prisoners mates show up and start giving him grief. There is a major shortage of equipment in the Garda and that's no secret.
That being said, Accenture was paid €26,500,000 in 2016 for services and work down across various projects...
To put that in perspective a Ford Focus which is a perfect Garda Car starts at €20,995. That equates to approx 1262 Cars... For just one year!!!!!

In terms of arresting the scumbags, they do it all the time. but the prisons are full so they all just get a suspended sentence and are released back onto the street. My mate says he's arresting the same people all the time. Can you just imagine how demoralising that would be?
Speaking of Moral, at least 8 Garda have committed suicide since Christmas... It's a tough Job.

In terms of fear, you'd be afraid too if you and your partner were confronted by load of scumbags with bats at the back of an alley with backup being a few 5 mins away. Link

It no secret among the criminal class that the chances of being caught by and an under resourced police force, convicted by a light touch judicial system, and imprisoned in an over populated prison system are extremely low.
You only have to look at the chances these skangers willing take nowadays:
- Unrest in tallaght during the snow
- Gang beating up a Garda
- Serious vandalism of a Train
- Joy riding in Finglas
All within the last few months.

We need more prisons ASAP. IMO it is the most critical long term issue in the country at the moment.

There was a substantial amount of taxpayers money assigned to putting new livery's on the squad cars so they could get rid of the" traffic corps" signage (millions I believe it cost). Why? ......... To get rid of the stench of the penalty points scandal.
You point to the fear that they sometimes operate under. I believe it was put to their union a number of years ago about arming the gards with a sidearm for their own protection. They voted against it. So this"fear" you speak of so partially out of their own doing. It can be a dangerous job at times but we all know those times are extremely rare. Let's be honest, the majority of cops spend time either behind a desk, or out doing tax/nct/insurance road checkpoints.
I agree with you on the prisons issue. These scummers run riot exactly because they know there will be very little in the way of punishment. But that still shouldn't act as an excuse for the gards to not try to take them on. What excuse do they have for not taking on the local drug dealer?
......... It's because there is no revenue for govt out of it. A "glorified set of revenue collectors" is what one disillusioned guard said to a friend of mine last year. And she is correct IMO.

Beta Ray Bill · 14-05-2018 04:09PM

micosoft wrote: »

And how exactly has that worked out for the US? What % of our population should be in prison? 10%? Do you think your tax dodger or joyrider leaves prison to become a productive member of society or goes on to commit more crime. Like 62%.

Let's be Norway who have one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20%, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

IMO building more schools for crime is the (no exaggeration) the least critical long term issue in this country by a mile.

You're comparing the social and economic standards of Norway and the US
The two countries could not be more different. I think Ireland sits somewhere in the middle of the two.

I certainly am not talking about having a percentage of people in prison.
Prison should be prison, Do the crime do the time. No education, no rehab, no TV, no pool tables, etc.
So what if they're bored. They are there for punishment.

The sentences are not long enough either.
For serial offenders there should a provision to lock them up indefinitely. (Violent Crime, Rape, Pedophilia, etc)

The problem is at the moment is costs €60,000 per year to keep a Prisoner in this country. It should really cost half of that.

Regardless, you cannot argue that "having no Penalty" is more effective at crime prevention than "Having a Penalty"

RobbieMD · 14-05-2018 04:17PM

opinionated3 wrote: »

There was a substantial amount of taxpayers money assigned to putting new livery's on the squad cars so they could get rid of the" traffic corps" signage (millions I believe it cost). Why? ......... To get rid of the stench of the penalty points scandal.
You point to the fear that they sometimes operate under. I believe it was put to their union a number of years ago about arming the gards with a sidearm for their own protection. They voted against it. So this"fear" you speak of so partially out of their own doing. It can be a dangerous job at times but we all know those times are extremely rare. Let's be honest, the majority of cops spend time either behind a desk, or out doing tax/nct/insurance road checkpoints.
I agree with you on the prisons issue. These scummers run riot exactly because they know there will be very little in the way of punishment. But that still shouldn't act as an excuse for the gards to not try to take them on. What excuse do they have for not taking on the local drug dealer?
......... It's because there is no revenue for govt out of it. A "glorified set of revenue collectors" is what one disillusioned guard said to a friend of mine last year. And she is correct IMO.

To be fair though, a Garda would not be justified in shooting a public order prisoner for example, which is a common scenario where Gardai are assaulted. Lethal force can only be used in the most exceptional circumstances, and it's not exceptional for Gardai to be assaulted by people without weapons. In reality tasers would be a better option. The Gardai was founded on the principle of policing by consent and arming every member would be contrary to that principle. And they don't have a union. They aren't allowed to have one and the benefits that being unionised bring, as recently highlighted at the wrc

With regards it being dangerous, it's certainly getting worse. Ireland isn't the same place it was just 10years ago. They know there isn't enough prison beds to go around, and there is zero fear of Gardai. You often see it on boards about the Gardai don't inspire the same fear as other police services around the world. Personally I don't want to be afraid of the local guard.

With regards to taking out the local drug dealer, not long ago Gardai were instructed to no longer use unregistered informants. The effect is that local drug units have no informants or informants they can use, and only the national units are getting big drug seizures. And to be fair they are getting plenty of big seizures.

If the Gardai were revenue collectors then we'd have Australian level fines for speeding etc. I think the whole system about breaks even at the end of the day.

I agree about the prisons too. People getting sentences for violent crime and then getting out on temporary release is a joke. That judges still even give suspended sentences when the lawfulness of that is uncertain. The whole justice system needs an overhaul

micosoft · 14-05-2018 04:30PM

grahambo wrote: »

You're comparing the social and economic standards of Norway and the US
The two countries could not be more different. I think Ireland sits somewhere in the middle of the two.

I certainly am not talking about having a percentage of people in prison.
Prison should be prison, Do the crime do the time. No education, no rehab, no TV, no pool tables, etc.
So what if they're bored. They are there for punishment.

The sentences are not long enough either.
For serial offenders there should a provision to lock them up indefinitely. (Violent Crime, Rape, Pedophilia, etc)

The problem is at the moment is costs €60,000 per year to keep a Prisoner in this country. It should really cost half of that.

Regardless, you cannot argue that "having no Penalty" is more effective at crime prevention than "Having a Penalty"

And how exactly do you think the US and Norway got to where they are now?

Please don't create false arguments. If you think in simple binary ways you promote the very thought process that got the US to where it is today and end up with US rates of incarceration.

If you use the slightest modicum that there is something other than "No education, no rehab, no TV, no pool tables, etc." then you end up with Norway.
Simples. And the near total of scientific inquiry on the matter says so.

So let's spend a little on youth centres and routes to employment in deprived areas which will reduce the need for the Gardai to do hot pursuits.

TallGlass · 14-05-2018 04:30PM

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Gardai should be passing out of Templemore already trained at this basic stuff.

See, that's common sense. Now if you done that, the Garda in the station the last 15 years waiting on the same course might get a bit tick about it.

In Australia for example, your shown, how to drive and how to use a firearm in training, then it's just a case of keeping up training.

AGS is in such a state at this stage. You'd be doing well to keep a tally on the 'issues' within, from stats, corruption in management, IT systems on the brink of collapse, Garda who can't drive cars or operate a siren. You'd be well to think we are talking about police force in some 3rd world country. Feel sorry for the decent Garda out there trying to do there best and dealing with utter scum and then having to deal with a totally and utter incompetent management, along with a government who doesn't give a ****, then the defunct courts system.

Captain Obvious · 14-05-2018 04:39PM

The sad thing about all this is when Garda management see a story like this they won't think "we have to train that half to a better standard", they'll instead go with "we better stop that half from driving completely".

Glass fused light · 14-05-2018 04:52PM

grahambo wrote: »

This has come out in light of the Skangers driving robbed cars in Finglas.
The video on Social media shows chaotic scenes which most people were shocked by.
What a lot of people don't realise is that this type of thing goes on most weekends in that part of Finglas.
Look at the tyre marks on the ground in google maps:
https://goo.gl/maps/F95PtFo3iGP2

That person made the mistake of recording the video and posting it to social media. They have probably had all their windows put through at this point.

The Garda don't need to be able to pursue these little skangers.
The Scummers want a chase off the Garda. The Garda have a policy of non-engagement. They already know who they are, so they just pick them up after.
The reason for non-engagement is simple. The skangers ram Garda cars and a pursuit is V.Dangerous to the public.
Damaged Garda car is not good, It's means a car is off the road for a week or two while it's repaired, plus the cost of the repair.
Add to that even if they catch the little skangers nothing happens, the prisons are full, there is no where to put them so they just let them go with a suspended sentence.

We need more Prisions

I remember talking to a uk police officer a few years ago, who was say that his force was fed up loosing cars and risking serious injury in one area so they pulled all the cars in to a single area and charged the driver with attemped murder after he ramed a car. Que the headlines in the local paper and a drop in the rammings for a while.

(unfortunately the charges eventually had to be reduced)

RDM_83 again · 14-05-2018 05:01PM

micosoft wrote: »

And how exactly has that worked out for the US? What % of our population should be in prison? 10%? Do you think your tax dodger or joyrider leaves prison to become a productive member of society or goes on to commit more crime. Like 62%.

Let's be Norway who have one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20%, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

IMO building more schools for crime is the (no exaggeration) the least critical long term issue in this country by a mile.

Norway has a population of 5.23 million so with 3,933 prisoners they have an incarceration rate of 75 per 100,000.

Ireland has a population of 4.77million so with a prison population of 3846 at the start of the year there is an incarceration rate of 80 per 100,000.

So in short Ireland and Norway actually already have a really low incarceration rate, so basically the idea that not building prisons has already been proven to fail.

Glass fused light · 14-05-2018 05:23PM

opinionated3 wrote: »

You point to the fear that they sometimes operate under. I believe it was put to their union a number of years ago about arming the gards with a sidearm for their own protection. They voted against it. So this"fear" you speak of so partially out of their own doing.

In arming, the force would have to take a radically different approach to how they handle the public, and public order policing.

Most people if you ask would be outraged if they thought that they or a loved one could end up being shot as a result of being drunk and disorderly.
The amount of posters on here who think that a (USA) officer should have "shot the lad in the leg" or otherwise wound illustrates that the Irish public mindset would not cope with an armed force.

Most failures to stop could be sorted with cameras and by making the registered driver responsible with large financial fines, immediate seizure and loss of the car and any subsequent cars, and community service sentences. Leaving the prisons for the rest.

Just as important would be an automatic review of cameras in squad cars and ambulance and fire brigades for bad driving with offending idiot drivers being sent on refresher driving courcse. One of the objections I had to the change in sirens was that at least with the old style ones you knew to watch out for the ass running from the Gardai as well as the squad car. But the amount of people I see driving into junctions which have a blue light motor trying to cross is a disgrace.

Graces7 · 14-05-2018 05:46PM

A thought; if this were the US how many of the Finglas etc thugs would literally survive?

Glass fused light · 14-05-2018 05:52PM

Graces7 wrote: »

A thought; if this were the US how many of the Finglas etc thugs would literally survive?

Most of them as they tend to rabbit for home when stopped and exit wounds in the front are hard(er) to justify.

Turtwig · 14-05-2018 06:07PM

Graces7 wrote: »

A thought; if this were the US how many of the Finglas etc thugs would literally survive?

Most would. Look at Mexico or even worse places for example.

opinionated3 · 14-05-2018 09:09PM

Graces7 wrote: »

A thought; if this were the US how many of the Finglas etc thugs would literally survive?

You see, this is what I don't understand. Who here actually REALLY cares whether scum like them survive or not?? As a society, who would really miss them apart from their own families ( who literally let them run riot in the first place). Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating running in there all guns blazing like the wild West, but at the end of the day they are criminals who steal innocent, hardworking people's property, endanger other innocents and destroy said property without a care in the world. And all the while probably claiming the Dole payment each week. We need a harder line to be taken on these people. That includes the Gardai no questions asked. Do your job FFS..... Is what's the taxpayer is paying you too do. No excuses. There are plenty of cars around to do motoring checkpoints, therefore a serious, dangerous incident like this should get priority over checking for tax on the M50....

Beta Ray Bill · 15-05-2018 07:10AM

micosoft wrote: »

And how exactly do you think the US and Norway got to where they are now?

Please don't create false arguments. If you think in simple binary ways you promote the very thought process that got the US to where it is today and end up with US rates of incarceration.

If you use the slightest modicum that there is something other than "No education, no rehab, no TV, no pool tables, etc." then you end up with Norway.
Simples. And the near total of scientific inquiry on the matter says so.

So let's spend a little on youth centres and routes to employment in deprived areas which will reduce the need for the Gardai to do hot pursuits.

The US is in the mess (socially speaking) it's in at the moment for a number of reasons.
1: There is no "social net", if something happens to you there that you cannot work you are in huge trouble as it has the most capitalist ideals in the world, in contrast Norway has a very coarse social net and encourages a sharing of wealth.
2: America needs an enemy/Liberal gun laws. In America there's a huge good guy/bad guy problem. IE in order for us to be good guys there needs to be bad guys. There is so much gun crime in the US it's hard to believe.
3: Norway doesn't have the multi cultural issue that the US has. If America "didn't have an enemy" it's likely these problems would get worse.

In terms of youth centers etc. I don't think that is effective. In this country it's seen as "Jobs for the Boys". Education, Discipline and knowing right from wrong start at home. Ultimately it's the parents that are responsible. I went to school/grew up in a deprived area. I never had youth centers or any of that rubbish. I grew up in a one parent family which in the 80's was unusual. And I never done anything like that.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Norway has a population of 5.23 million so with 3,933 prisoners they have an incarceration rate of 75 per 100,000.

Ireland has a population of 4.77million so with a prison population of 3846 at the start of the year there is an incarceration rate of 80 per 100,000.

So in short Ireland and Norway actually already have a really low incarceration rate, so basically the idea that not building prisons has already been proven to fail.

Microsoft is right though that the US has an unusually high Prison population.
I think it's about 700 per 100,000.
It's high in the US too though because they are a v.wealthy country and can afford it. They also have privately operated prisons.
It is a mess over there.

That being said, I think you are correct in that building prisons here hasn't been proven not to work.

Subcomandante Marcos · 15-05-2018 07:15AM

Graces7 wrote: »

A thought; if this were the US how many of the Finglas etc thugs would literally survive?

They're white so most of them would be grand.

micosoft · 15-05-2018 09:58AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Norway has a population of 5.23 million so with 3,933 prisoners they have an incarceration rate of 75 per 100,000.

Ireland has a population of 4.77million so with a prison population of 3846 at the start of the year there is an incarceration rate of 80 per 100,000.

So in short Ireland and Norway actually already have a really low incarceration rate, so basically the idea that not building prisons has already been proven to fail.

How have you proved not building prisons fails?

Norway is has a low incarceration rate 70/100,000 & low rates of recidivism @ 20%. So the evidence says not building prisons works.

US has a high rate of incarceration at 666/100,000 & high rates of recidivism @ 36% (rising to 51% after 5 years). So the evidence says building prisons does not work.

Ireland has a low incarceration rate of 79 but a very high level of recidivism @51%. So the evidence is we are not doing something right if we don't look like Norway.

The proposition was that we build more prisons to reduce crime. In the case of the US proves that this has not reduced crime.
In fact treating criminals as animals merely increases the costs every time (6% of US GDP by one reckoning). Which is good when incarceration is a private sector industry in the US.

On the other hand Norway demonstrates that you can reduce recidivism with proper investment in rehabilitation and not using prison as a first stop. And it's extremely cheap

Half of Gardaí can't give chase or use siren

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