Half of Gardaí can't give chase or use siren

Vladimir Poontang

Story coming out today that HALF or Gardai can't give chase at speed OR use their siren as they are not qualified.

If an unqualified Garda wants to pull over a car he has to resort to flashing his headlights in the HOPE the car pulls over.

What. The. Fcuk.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/concerns-over-lack-of-training-as-half-of-gardai-cant-give-chase-or-use-siren-842692.html

Fighting Tao

That's possibly one of the reasons there is very little enforcement on roads. It should be a requirement that within 6 months of turning out from Templemore that they are trained to the level necessary.

Vladimir Poontang

Why do they need training to operate a flashy blue light!

This is a national disgrace, no wonder the Gardai are a laughing stock

kneemos

They could push the flashy button and drive at normal speed presumably?

Fighting Tao

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Why do they need training to operate a flashy blue light!

Pressing a button is complicated.

runawaybishop

kneemos wrote: »

They could push the flashy button and drive at normal speed presumably?

Nope, sirens cause other road users to act in a way that could be dangerous so you need to have an advanced driving course done to use them, same course covers driving at speed in pursuit etc. Big waiting list to get the course done as afaik you have to go back to templemore for a couple of weeks to do it.

zell12

Blue lights & sirens cause every other driver to act like they never drove a car before.
Training is required to deal with other road users.

whiskeyman

Love the bit in the article where the paper and a TD has demanded stats from the Gardai.

Stats from the Gards?

They'll probably say over 2m members of the force have the required training...

padd b1975

kneemos wrote: »

They could push the flashy button and drive at normal speed presumably?

And stick their head out the window and shout bee-baw! bee-baw!.

Graces7

Well, if you aint going to stop when police car flashes headlights at you, clearly you are a bad lad so they can radio ahead and get you stopped.

whisky_galore

All part and parcel of the learned helplessness endemic here.

Captain Obvious

It's actually more ridiculous than the story states. Almost all Gardaí are not allowed chase. AGS effectively have a no pursuit policy. What the story is referring to is members not being allowed break the road traffic regulations unless they have the driving course done. And it's likely more than half of drivers. It's a bit of a silly rule because their is a legal exemption for them anyway. So even though they are legally allowed break the speed limit for instance they can get disciplined for doing so.

Beta Ray Bill

This has come out in light of the Skangers driving robbed cars in Finglas.
The video on Social media shows chaotic scenes which most people were shocked by.
What a lot of people don't realise is that this type of thing goes on most weekends in that part of Finglas.
Look at the tyre marks on the ground in google maps:
https://goo.gl/maps/F95PtFo3iGP2

That person made the mistake of recording the video and posting it to social media. They have probably had all their windows put through at this point.

The Garda don't need to be able to pursue these little skangers.
The Scummers want a chase off the Garda. The Garda have a policy of non-engagement. They already know who they are, so they just pick them up after.
The reason for non-engagement is simple. The skangers ram Garda cars and a pursuit is V.Dangerous to the public.
Damaged Garda car is not good, It's means a car is off the road for a week or two while it's repaired, plus the cost of the repair.
Add to that even if they catch the little skangers nothing happens, the prisons are full, there is no where to put them so they just let them go with a suspended sentence.

We need more Prisions

vicwatson

Should get one of those portable ones that Starsky and Hutch had, plug it in the cigarette lighter socket

Riddle101

You could probably do a tv show based on the Gardaí this rate. An Irish version of The Wire maybe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjtz-w0Xouo

ednwireland

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/12V-EMERGENCY-WARNING-REVOLVING-ROTATING-AUTO-RECOVERY-BEACON-LIGHT-BLUE/222756938943?hash=item33dd5924bf:g:RKAAAOSwehZaM6eX

there you go problem solved

Vladimir Poontang

Gardai should be passing out of Templemore already trained at this basic stuff.

How can you even consider yourself a policeman if you can't chase and pursue criminals in a car or use the siren?

It's laughable

Hector Bellend

The siren is sacred.

It's used for the puddin' box.

Graces7

Thinking back to watching the UK "The Bill" 'not all trainees were allowed to take the Advanced Driving course. It was an honour.

Reati

That person made the mistake of recording the video and posting it to social media. They have probably had all their windows put through at this point.
[/QUOTE]

Not to derail, but yeah. I was thinking the same thing as it was shot from someone's garden and at one point the car pulls (well crashes) right up to that person videoing.

heffomike54

Graces7 wrote: »

Thinking back to watching the UK "The Bill" 'not all trainees were allowed to take the Advanced Driving course. It was an honour.

This is not far from the truth. Driving the garda cars is a big deal for health & safety so I think the thinking is that, you should spend some time in the car learning from other garda drivers before you get to do the training. Plus, its all well and good being able to drive but if you think of watching a police pursuit on tv, they are able to give good clear directions as to where they are heading thus making the pursuit safer for all concerned. This knowledge would only be gained after working in a station for a period of time. Sat nav is a possible solution but they break and need updating constant updating.

diomed

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Gardai should be passing out of Templemore already trained at this basic stuff.
How can you even consider yourself a policeman if you can't chase and pursue criminals in a car or use the siren?
It's laughable

The most sensible post ever.
I think they are happy if they can drive the patrol car to the local takeaway.

runawaybishop

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Gardai should be passing out of Templemore already trained at this basic stuff.

How can you even consider yourself a policeman if you can't chase and pursue criminals in a car or use the siren?

It's laughable

No need to be trained in it since they wont be driving a car for a while, the experienced gardai are the ones driving. Not much point training someone who will be a passenger for a couple of years and who may transfer to a different branch.

micosoft

runawaybishop wrote: »

Nope, sirens cause other road users to act in a way that could be dangerous so you need to have an advanced driving course done to use them, same course covers driving at speed in pursuit etc. Big waiting list to get the course done as afaik you have to go back to templemore for a couple of weeks to do it.

It's getting tiresome to see that people who know nothing about a given occupation are happy to make assumptions as to why "something is stoopid" without actually asking why?

Are there enough advanced drivers? Probably not.

Should every Garda that drives a garda vehicle be an advanced driver? Probably not.

Are there better ways of dealing with dangerous drivers ? Probably.

Non story about Garda operations.

Turtwig

The implicit assumption here is that they should be able to give chase. Why? Chase is fraught with both personal and public risk. Great for movies and ticking time bomb scenarios. Anything else?

Samuel T. Cogley

Many UK police can't give chase either as they're not advanced driver trained. I expect it's the same in most countries.

begbysback

I have a solution - there's at least 2 in a Garda car, half of 2 = 1

Let that one drive the car

whiskeyman

Turtwig wrote: »

The implicit assumption here is that they should be able to give chase. Why? Chase is fraught with both personal and public risk. Great for movies and ticking time bomb scenarios. Anything else?

Bizarrely enough, the majority of criminals won't volunteer themselves for arrest upon knowning the Gardai wish to speak to them.
Catching said criminals at the scene of a crime or with evidence can also work wonders when pressing charges or in court cases.
The risk involved is why the training is necessary.

badtoro

As someone said, it should be basic training that new Gardaí leave college with. It's embarrassing for us all that they don't. I'd suggest cultural or group think issue is at fault here. We don't seem capable as a nation of thinking and adapting without major upheaval.

Dravokivich

Turtwig wrote: »

The implicit assumption here is that they should be able to give chase. Why? Chase is fraught with both personal and public risk. Great for movies and ticking time bomb scenarios. Anything else?

The issue isn't with chasing thugs. People who turn away from checkpoints, people speeding, on their phones or has a potential defect on their vehicle a garda wants to assess.

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

What do the Garda actually do? They seem to just be a tax collecting force, trying to catch people speeding etc to issue fines. Meanwhile Dublin City has open drug dealing, zombies everywhere, and the likes of the carry on in Finglas. Our police force look pathetic, their uniforms are so dated, compare them to Spanish or German police and you'd wonder why anyone would respect them.
I wonder if your average Garda is afraid of the scumbags in Finglas and travelers etc. They continually blatantly break the law and cause disturbances yet nothing is done about it.

wexie

Fighting Tao wrote: »

That's possibly one of the reasons there is very little enforcement on roads. It should be a requirement that within 6 months of turning out from Templemore that they are trained to the level necessary.

eeeeh...no!!!

they should be qualified before leaving Templemore....

Odhinn

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Why do they need training to operate a flashy blue light!

This is a national disgrace, no wonder the Gardai are a laughing stock

It's not just operating a flashy blue light.


It's balancing a flashy blue light while making siren noises and running at the same time.

lawred2

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Story coming out today that HALF or Gardai can't give chase at speed OR use their siren as they are not qualified.

If an unqualified Garda wants to pull over a car he has to resort to flashing his headlights in the HOPE the car pulls over.

What. The. Fcuk.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/concerns-over-lack-of-training-as-half-of-gardai-cant-give-chase-or-use-siren-842692.html

I hope this in't a union demarcation thing

Captain Obvious

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

What do the Garda actually do? They seem to just be a tax collecting force, trying to catch people speeding etc to issue fines. Meanwhile Dublin City has open drug dealing, zombies everywhere, and the likes of the carry on in Finglas. Our police force look pathetic, their uniforms are so dated, compare them to Spanish or German police and you'd wonder why anyone would respect them.
I wonder if your average Garda is afraid of the scumbags in Finglas and travelers etc. They continually blatantly break the law and cause disturbances yet nothing is done about it.

Approximately 1000 Gardaí are injured a year. It's certainly not from checking tax on cars.

Vladimir Poontang

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Approximately 1000 Gardaí are injured a year. It's certainly not from checking tax on cars.

Yeah, a lot of it is because they have only a stick to defend themselves, which they hesitate to use because of the reams of paperwork afterwards.

Not. Fit. For. Purpose.

And it's the Government's fault. Not the Gardai

Beta Ray Bill

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

What do the Garda actually do? They seem to just be a tax collecting force, trying to catch people speeding etc to issue fines. Meanwhile Dublin City has open drug dealing, zombies everywhere, and the likes of the carry on in Finglas. Our police force look pathetic, their uniforms are so dated, compare them to Spanish or German police and you'd wonder why anyone would respect them.
I wonder if your average Garda is afraid of the scumbags in Finglas and travelers etc. They continually blatantly break the law and cause disturbances yet nothing is done about it.

This is a very unfair post.
The Garda are stuck in a rut in terms of management and effectiveness.
They have major investment but it's going to the wrong places/people

My mate is Garda and there are shifts that he does where a car is not available and they have to go on foot. He doesn't mind this, but if he arrests someone he has to wait for a Car/Van to come and pick up the prisoner, meanwhile the prisoners mates show up and start giving him grief. There is a major shortage of equipment in the Garda and that's no secret.
That being said, Accenture was paid €26,500,000 in 2016 for services and work down across various projects...
To put that in perspective a Ford Focus which is a perfect Garda Car starts at €20,995. That equates to approx 1262 Cars... For just one year!!!!!

In terms of arresting the scumbags, they do it all the time. but the prisons are full so they all just get a suspended sentence and are released back onto the street. My mate says he's arresting the same people all the time. Can you just imagine how demoralising that would be?
Speaking of Moral, at least 8 Garda have committed suicide since Christmas... It's a tough Job.

In terms of fear, you'd be afraid too if you and your partner were confronted by load of scumbags with bats at the back of an alley with backup being a few 5 mins away. Link

It no secret among the criminal class that the chances of being caught by and an under resourced police force, convicted by a light touch judicial system, and imprisoned in an over populated prison system are extremely low.
You only have to look at the chances these skangers willing take nowadays:
- Unrest in tallaght during the snow
- Gang beating up a Garda
- Serious vandalism of a Train
- Joy riding in Finglas
All within the last few months.

We need more prisons ASAP. IMO it is the most critical long term issue in the country at the moment.

Subcomandante Marcos

Shouldn't the advanced driving course be part or the curriculum at templemore?

Captain Obvious

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Shouldn't the advanced driving course be part or the curriculum at templemore?

Not feasible. Takes one instructor for three members for three weeks.

RoboRat

Recruit the joy riders to be the drivers!

seamus

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Shouldn't the advanced driving course be part or the curriculum at templemore?

Why?

As some others have pointed out on this thread, there are many good reasons why a Garda may not be sufficiently trained, why it not always necessary for them to be trained, and the limited circumstances in which pursuit driving is actually called for.

Let's ignore pursuit driving because that's a red herring here.

Basic use of the sirens for traffic control, attending situations, etc, is important. But how many Gardai actually need to be trained to this level? There isn't a car for every Garda. Thousands of Gardai don't even step out from behind a desk, many others spend the majority of their time on their feet.

In an ideal world every Garda would have the skill and training to jump in a Garda car and stick on the siren and speed off. But in a realistic world some people will just be incapable of meeting the standard to pass this requirement, and will never meet it. And thousands of other Gardai will be driving the car so infrequently that calling them "qualified" may actually be more dangerous than not training them at all.

So before we can foam at the mouth about the number of untrained Gardai, we need to know what the number of trained Gardai should be.

It's also worth noting that this 50% is a speculatory figure from the GRA, and may be completely made up.

irishproduce

grahambo wrote: »

This has come out in light of the Skangers driving robbed cars in Finglas.
The video on Social media shows chaotic scenes which most people were shocked by.
What a lot of people don't realise is that this type of thing goes on most weekends in that part of Finglas.
Look at the tyre marks on the ground in google maps:
https://goo.gl/maps/F95PtFo3iGP2

That person made the mistake of recording the video and posting it to social media. They have probably had all their windows put through at this point.

The Garda don't need to be able to pursue these little skangers.
The Scummers want a chase off the Garda. The Garda have a policy of non-engagement. They already know who they are, so they just pick them up after.
The reason for non-engagement is simple. The skangers ram Garda cars and a pursuit is V.Dangerous to the public.
Damaged Garda car is not good, It's means a car is off the road for a week or two while it's repaired, plus the cost of the repair.
Add to that even if they catch the little skangers nothing happens, the prisons are full, there is no where to put them so they just let them go with a suspended sentence.

We need more Prisions

I have said this on another thread, around the time of the LIDL roof being torn off.
When your local representatives are coming asking for your vote, you need to be asking them if they will pursue the addition of new prisons and prison spaces.
The judges do not sentence to prison because they know there is no room. The Dail does not adjust the laws governing what one can be sent to prison for because they're also aware there is no room.
Someone needs to commit funding to the country's future by putting aside money for a new prison. The judges will be able to sentence properly and the Dail will be able to adjust laws properly so offenders can be locked up.

No one should be subject to their little children having to watch people screech and ram cars as if in destruction derby outside their front door.
Disgraceful that these people are not either in prison or on education programmes where they are off the street.

micosoft

grahambo wrote: »

We need more prisons ASAP. IMO it is the most critical long term issue in the country at the moment.

And how exactly has that worked out for the US? What % of our population should be in prison? 10%? Do you think your tax dodger or joyrider leaves prison to become a productive member of society or goes on to commit more crime. Like 62%.

Let's be Norway who have one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20%, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

IMO building more schools for crime is the (no exaggeration) the least critical long term issue in this country by a mile.

Graces7

micosoft wrote: »

And how exactly has that worked out for the US? What % of our population should be in prison? 10%? Do you think your tax dodger or joyrider leaves prison to become a productive member of society or goes on to commit more crime. Like 62%.

Let's be Norway who have one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20%, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

IMO building more schools for crime is the (no exaggeration) the least critical long term issue in this country by a mile.

You beat me to it. Well said

opinionated3

grahambo wrote: »

This is a very unfair post.
The Garda are stuck in a rut in terms of management and effectiveness.
They have major investment but it's going to the wrong places/people

My mate is Garda and there are shifts that he does where a car is not available and they have to go on foot. He doesn't mind this, but if he arrests someone he has to wait for a Car/Van to come and pick up the prisoner, meanwhile the prisoners mates show up and start giving him grief. There is a major shortage of equipment in the Garda and that's no secret.
That being said, Accenture was paid €26,500,000 in 2016 for services and work down across various projects...
To put that in perspective a Ford Focus which is a perfect Garda Car starts at €20,995. That equates to approx 1262 Cars... For just one year!!!!!

In terms of arresting the scumbags, they do it all the time. but the prisons are full so they all just get a suspended sentence and are released back onto the street. My mate says he's arresting the same people all the time. Can you just imagine how demoralising that would be?
Speaking of Moral, at least 8 Garda have committed suicide since Christmas... It's a tough Job.

In terms of fear, you'd be afraid too if you and your partner were confronted by load of scumbags with bats at the back of an alley with backup being a few 5 mins away. Link

It no secret among the criminal class that the chances of being caught by and an under resourced police force, convicted by a light touch judicial system, and imprisoned in an over populated prison system are extremely low.
You only have to look at the chances these skangers willing take nowadays:
- Unrest in tallaght during the snow
- Gang beating up a Garda
- Serious vandalism of a Train
- Joy riding in Finglas
All within the last few months.

We need more prisons ASAP. IMO it is the most critical long term issue in the country at the moment.

There was a substantial amount of taxpayers money assigned to putting new livery's on the squad cars so they could get rid of the" traffic corps" signage (millions I believe it cost). Why? ......... To get rid of the stench of the penalty points scandal.
You point to the fear that they sometimes operate under. I believe it was put to their union a number of years ago about arming the gards with a sidearm for their own protection. They voted against it. So this"fear" you speak of so partially out of their own doing. It can be a dangerous job at times but we all know those times are extremely rare. Let's be honest, the majority of cops spend time either behind a desk, or out doing tax/nct/insurance road checkpoints.
I agree with you on the prisons issue. These scummers run riot exactly because they know there will be very little in the way of punishment. But that still shouldn't act as an excuse for the gards to not try to take them on. What excuse do they have for not taking on the local drug dealer?
......... It's because there is no revenue for govt out of it. A "glorified set of revenue collectors" is what one disillusioned guard said to a friend of mine last year. And she is correct IMO.

Beta Ray Bill

micosoft wrote: »

And how exactly has that worked out for the US? What % of our population should be in prison? 10%? Do you think your tax dodger or joyrider leaves prison to become a productive member of society or goes on to commit more crime. Like 62%.

Let's be Norway who have one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20%, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

IMO building more schools for crime is the (no exaggeration) the least critical long term issue in this country by a mile.

You're comparing the social and economic standards of Norway and the US
The two countries could not be more different. I think Ireland sits somewhere in the middle of the two.

I certainly am not talking about having a percentage of people in prison.
Prison should be prison, Do the crime do the time. No education, no rehab, no TV, no pool tables, etc.
So what if they're bored. They are there for punishment.

The sentences are not long enough either.
For serial offenders there should a provision to lock them up indefinitely. (Violent Crime, Rape, Pedophilia, etc)

The problem is at the moment is costs €60,000 per year to keep a Prisoner in this country. It should really cost half of that.

Regardless, you cannot argue that "having no Penalty" is more effective at crime prevention than "Having a Penalty"

RobbieMD

opinionated3 wrote: »

There was a substantial amount of taxpayers money assigned to putting new livery's on the squad cars so they could get rid of the" traffic corps" signage (millions I believe it cost). Why? ......... To get rid of the stench of the penalty points scandal.
You point to the fear that they sometimes operate under. I believe it was put to their union a number of years ago about arming the gards with a sidearm for their own protection. They voted against it. So this"fear" you speak of so partially out of their own doing. It can be a dangerous job at times but we all know those times are extremely rare. Let's be honest, the majority of cops spend time either behind a desk, or out doing tax/nct/insurance road checkpoints.
I agree with you on the prisons issue. These scummers run riot exactly because they know there will be very little in the way of punishment. But that still shouldn't act as an excuse for the gards to not try to take them on. What excuse do they have for not taking on the local drug dealer?
......... It's because there is no revenue for govt out of it. A "glorified set of revenue collectors" is what one disillusioned guard said to a friend of mine last year. And she is correct IMO.

To be fair though, a Garda would not be justified in shooting a public order prisoner for example, which is a common scenario where Gardai are assaulted. Lethal force can only be used in the most exceptional circumstances, and it's not exceptional for Gardai to be assaulted by people without weapons. In reality tasers would be a better option. The Gardai was founded on the principle of policing by consent and arming every member would be contrary to that principle. And they don't have a union. They aren't allowed to have one and the benefits that being unionised bring, as recently highlighted at the wrc

With regards it being dangerous, it's certainly getting worse. Ireland isn't the same place it was just 10years ago. They know there isn't enough prison beds to go around, and there is zero fear of Gardai. You often see it on boards about the Gardai don't inspire the same fear as other police services around the world. Personally I don't want to be afraid of the local guard.

With regards to taking out the local drug dealer, not long ago Gardai were instructed to no longer use unregistered informants. The effect is that local drug units have no informants or informants they can use, and only the national units are getting big drug seizures. And to be fair they are getting plenty of big seizures.

If the Gardai were revenue collectors then we'd have Australian level fines for speeding etc. I think the whole system about breaks even at the end of the day.

I agree about the prisons too. People getting sentences for violent crime and then getting out on temporary release is a joke. That judges still even give suspended sentences when the lawfulness of that is uncertain. The whole justice system needs an overhaul

micosoft

grahambo wrote: »

You're comparing the social and economic standards of Norway and the US
The two countries could not be more different. I think Ireland sits somewhere in the middle of the two.

I certainly am not talking about having a percentage of people in prison.
Prison should be prison, Do the crime do the time. No education, no rehab, no TV, no pool tables, etc.
So what if they're bored. They are there for punishment.

The sentences are not long enough either.
For serial offenders there should a provision to lock them up indefinitely. (Violent Crime, Rape, Pedophilia, etc)

The problem is at the moment is costs €60,000 per year to keep a Prisoner in this country. It should really cost half of that.

Regardless, you cannot argue that "having no Penalty" is more effective at crime prevention than "Having a Penalty"

And how exactly do you think the US and Norway got to where they are now?

Please don't create false arguments. If you think in simple binary ways you promote the very thought process that got the US to where it is today and end up with US rates of incarceration.

If you use the slightest modicum that there is something other than "No education, no rehab, no TV, no pool tables, etc." then you end up with Norway.
Simples. And the near total of scientific inquiry on the matter says so.

So let's spend a little on youth centres and routes to employment in deprived areas which will reduce the need for the Gardai to do hot pursuits.

TallGlass

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Gardai should be passing out of Templemore already trained at this basic stuff.

See, that's common sense. Now if you done that, the Garda in the station the last 15 years waiting on the same course might get a bit tick about it.

In Australia for example, your shown, how to drive and how to use a firearm in training, then it's just a case of keeping up training.

AGS is in such a state at this stage. You'd be doing well to keep a tally on the 'issues' within, from stats, corruption in management, IT systems on the brink of collapse, Garda who can't drive cars or operate a siren. You'd be well to think we are talking about police force in some 3rd world country. Feel sorry for the decent Garda out there trying to do there best and dealing with utter scum and then having to deal with a totally and utter incompetent management, along with a government who doesn't give a ****, then the defunct courts system.

Captain Obvious

The sad thing about all this is when Garda management see a story like this they won't think "we have to train that half to a better standard", they'll instead go with "we better stop that half from driving completely".