8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Justin Credible Darts · 14-05-2018 07:57AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

You said that you and your wife don't agree with abortion and you have yet to explain what about it you don't agree with.

I am asking a simple question about why people say abortion is the most difficult thing a woman can do etc etc, if they don't believe that what is being aborted is a living thing.

If I believe abortion is the taking of a life, how can I accept it in certain circumstances? Just as I can't accept murder of a newborn due to povery, rape or any other reason, I can't.
I believe in the harshest penalties for rapists, the greatest amount of care and resouces devoted to victims. But I cannot accept the killing of the unborn as an acceptable outcome.

"Don't like abortion don't have one" lowers the tone of discussion. "don't like murder, don't murder someone". Do you see how your soundbyte shows your failure to grasp the objections people have to abortion?

Yet again you mention words to try turn the conversation the way you want it repeating the word murder, as that is the line you want to dispense over and over. Just because you think it is murder does not mean it is murder., thats just your opinion, which you are entitled to have but does not make if FACT

I dont agree with abortion , in theory, like someone said earlier, the idea of some chav stella with hoop earrings getting abortion after abortion sickens me. My wife and I would love to have had kids but unfortunately we could not have them. Maybe that is why I am possibly anti abortion.

The otherside is do we want all the chavs keeping their kids and our tax paying for all these urchins and their unemployed mothers ?

In the end I think a woman has the right to choose for herself

Dressing gown · 14-05-2018 07:59AM

Pac1Man wrote: »

So my vote shouldn't count? Not how this works.

No that’s not the point I’m making. Of course your vote counts. But, you cannot understand or worry about something that will never happen to you. I have been pregnant. It is ****. I know from looking at a few of your posts that you have been bed bound. Pregnancy wrecks you. In so many ways. Motherhood wrecks you. In so many ways. Being responsible for every need for a helpless little human being wrecks you in so many ways. You become irrelevant. And that is when everyone is healthy. A sick child is hellish. A suffering child is heartbreak. Asking a woman already at breaking point with their load in life to keep their baby and take on another 18 years of devotion for another human being is enslavery of a form. I was terrified when I was pregnant with my third child because I carried it in ireland not England. I lost my first to miscarriage and it effected my mental health. But that was when it was just me and my husband. I didn’t have the responsibility of caring for other kids that notice when there is something wrong with mummy. I was terrified if there was something wrong and I had to carry the baby to term that I would break down completely. Can you put yourself in my shoes and wonder, if you found out the baby would die, and you knew you wouldn’t be able to hold it together. That is the point I’m making. It is real fear for me. It is the worst kind of terror because you are helpless to protect your living children. And trust me they matter more than the 11week old pregnancy I lost. Even though I grieved for that pregnancy. So no it’s not that your vote shouldn’t count. But you should be damn sure you are comfortable with condemning thousands of women to the terror, pain, sacrifice, sickness and helplessness that is going on now to continue. Any you can’t rest easy that you are saving lives because the constitution is not saving 4000+ foetuses a year anyway. It is not fit for purpose. Think of whatever scares the shot out of you most and consider whether you can in good conscience vote for women to experience that.

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 07:59AM

King of Kings wrote: »

id rather vote to keep out of ireland. not that im blind to that fact some pregnancies are difficult (in a broad sense) but morally I cant abide by ending the life of the child unless their is a very good reason...such as a medical one.

as mentioned above in a previous comment that isnt the choice on offer.

I too have some misgivings about abortion on demand .But its happening anyway and it will still happen .Having said that I have to put my misgivings aside and vote Yes because I think its my duty to keep women safe .I could not justify voting NO if it puts one woman in danger .I cannot vote No if it means a woman has to carry a child of a rapist or a baby with FFA . My misgivings are my misgivings but I will put them aside because this is too huge an issue to simply dismiss because I have misgivings .I have daughters and nieces and granddaughters and I have to ensure I do the right thing to keep those girls safe .

Justin Credible Darts · 14-05-2018 08:04AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I too have some misgivings about abortion on demand .But its happening anyway and it will still happen .Having said that I have to put my misgivings aside and vote Yes because I think its my duty to keep women safe .I could not justify voting NO if it puts one woman in danger .I cannot vote No if it means a woman has to carry a child of a rapist or a baby with FFA . My misgivings are my misgivings but I will put them aside because this is too huge an issue to simply dismiss because I have misgivings .I have daughters and nieces and granddaughters and I have to ensure I do the right thing to keep those girls safe .

well said.
As for your duty to keep women safe, as a male voter it is all our duty to make sure the woman is safe, and any future rape victim does not have to suffer any extra burdens.

Muzzymor · 14-05-2018 08:05AM

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Yet again you mention words to try turn the conversation the way you want it repeating the word murder, as that is the line you want to dispense over and over. Just because you think it is murder does not mean it is murder., thats just your opinion, which you are entitled to have but does not make if FACT

I dont agree with abortion , in theory, like someone said earlier, the idea of some chav stella with hoop earrings getting abortion after abortion sickens me. My wife and I would love to have had kids but unfortunately we could not have them. Maybe that is why I am possibly anti abortion.

What reason do you have to be sickened by "some chav" having multiple abortions ?
Do you find yourself sickened by "some chav" having any form of routine medical procedure to remove some non living thing from their body?

Do you find yourself sickened by the concept of "some chav" wearing a condom during sex etc too?

If not, what makes abortion any worse than those things?

Sofiztikated · 14-05-2018 08:08AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

What reason do you have to be sickened by "some chav" having multiple abortions ?
Do you find yourself sickened by "some chav" having any form of routine medical procedure to remove some non living thing from their body?

Do you find yourself sickened by the concept of "some chav" wearing a condom during sex etc too?

If not, what makes abortion any worse than those things?

There IS no reason. Its a personal feeling, which he understands is personal, and should not dictate law.

Justin Credible Darts · 14-05-2018 08:13AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

What reason do you have to be sickened by "some chav" having multiple abortions ?
Do you find yourself sickened by "some chav" having any form of routine medical procedure to remove some non living thing from their body?

Do you find yourself sickened by the concept of "some chav" wearing a condom during sex etc too?

If not, what makes abortion any worse than those things?

You are missing the point
There are girls, who take no precautions, dont use contraception, get pregnant and have an abortion, then do it all over again and sometime its multiple times. That sickens me. Its like pregnancy is just some minor inconvenience to them

As mentioned by many others there are multiple other reasons why abortions are had, like the mothers physical health, her mental health, the impact it could have on a rape victim etc.
These are reasons why I will vote Yes.

Muzzymor · 14-05-2018 08:15AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

There IS no reason. Its a personal feeling, which he understands is personal, and should not dictate law.

Since this is a discussion about ethics, my position is that the origin of and reason behind that personal feeling is extremely important.

It is the difference between believing that abortion is flushing some cells out of a body vs believing that abortion is killing an unborn child.
It changes absolutely everything.

People have the right to do whatever they want to do as long as it doesn't harm another.

Whether abortion is the killing of an unborn child or the removal of unwanted clumps of cells is the crux of this entire issue.

Sofiztikated · 14-05-2018 08:16AM

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

You are missing the point
There are girls, who take no precautions, dont use contraception, get pregnant and have an abortion, then do it all over again and sometime its multiple times. That sickens me. Its like pregnancy is just some minor inconvenience to them

As mentioned by many others there are multiple other reasons why abortions are had, like the mothers physical health, her mental health, the impact it could have on a rape victim etc.
These are reasons why I will vote Yes.

Very few and far between.

cournioni · 14-05-2018 08:19AM

volchitsa wrote: »

And when accidents happen, we try to fix them. We don't say, "Tough, you should have been careful."

Terminating a pregnancy is also one of the options, for some people. If you don't think it's right, you don't have to do it. But locking a woman in a mental hospital because she doesn't agree with you isn't something normal countries do.

Yet that is what has happened in Ireland.

Fix it by killing a healthy unborn?

Sofiztikated · 14-05-2018 08:19AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

.

Whether abortion is the killing of an unborn child of the removal of unwanted clumps of cells is the crux of this entire issue.

Again, at 12 weeks, there is no brain, no nervous system, no sentience, nothing going on.

NuMarvel · 14-05-2018 08:20AM

cournioni wrote: »

Doesn’t matter what people do in other countries. I’m telling you what I think is right and wrong. I think it’s wrong to take a healthy living beings life away no matter where it is.

So if the referendum was about overturning the 13th Amendment (the freedom to travel), how would you vote in that?

And bear in mind, I'm not asking you if you think it's possible to stop women having abortions abroad, I'm asking you if you want to remove the barrier to stopping women having abortions abroad if or when it is possible to do so.

If you think it's wrong to take a healthy living beings life away, no matter where it is, then presumably you'd vote in favour of repaling the 13th, yes?

cournioni wrote: »

If the child has no chance at survival and puts the mother’s life at risk, then my opinion is different. Hence undecided.

cournioni wrote: »

Rape is another reason why I’m undecided.

We know from previous cases and legal opinions that we can't address these situations while the 8th is in place. Nor is it possible to amend the 8th to provide from them. Anyone, including 200 lawyers voting No, who has said we can do that has been wholly unable to say how it could be done.

So realistically, the only way to address these is to vote Yes. They definitely won't be changed with a No vote.

I appreciate you may be opposed to some of the proposed legislation that will follow, but that legislation hasn't been passed yet, and can be changed. You can still lobby to have it amended.

cournioni wrote: »

If contraception doesn’t work then I’m afraid it’s a case of “if you play, you pay”. Unfortunate reality for people, but that is for sex educators to make clear to people. Not enough people in this country are accountable for their actions whether in work, life or in bed, they need to be.

So if you picked up an STI during sex, you're saying you'd never go to a doctor to get it treated? You'd simply accept it as the "price" of "playing"? I find that hard to believe.

And before you say it, I'm not comparing STIs and pregnancy, I'm challenging your "you play, you pay" view and wondering if you'd practice what you'd preach.

Muzzymor · 14-05-2018 08:20AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Very few and far between.

I agree, I find it an odd point.

That said, even if such people did exist in large numbers why would it matter or be any concern of ours what they did with their own bodies multiple times, if one doesn't believe that abortion is the taking of the life of the unborn surely it matters not if you have 1 or 100?

If you believe it is the taking of a human life, 1 is too many.

volchitsa · 14-05-2018 08:23AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Very few and far between.

It's like saying there are people who have made multiple suicide attempts so that proves that a suicide attempt is like nothing, they just do it without thinking.

The very very few women who have had multiple abortions are not people who just don't care, they are women whose lives are a mess in all sorts of ways.
In some cases they may be being abused, in others there may be addictions that stop them from getting themselves cared for including having effective contraception. They may be having sex as a way to pay for drugs, or just to get rid of someone who is being threatening towards them.

The idea that they are riding rings round them because they can just have an abortion after is Daily Mail stuff. I don't believe it's true.

Justin Credible Darts · 14-05-2018 08:24AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Again, at 12 weeks, there is no brain, no nervous system, no sentience, nothing going on.

you are wasting your time.
This will be ignored so the "murder" rhetoric can be wheeled out.

They think they have some divine rights over everyones bodies, act like they are good christians but would have no problem watching a woman die, or a rape victim suffer mental issues just so their stance is forced upon everyone.

volchitsa · 14-05-2018 08:25AM

cournioni wrote: »

Fix it by killing a healthy unborn?

Go to the UK?
What's the difference?

It's ending a pregnancy. This whole "unborn" as a noun is just a way of avoiding the fact that there is no person there. Not before viability.

Sofiztikated · 14-05-2018 08:26AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

I agree, I find it an odd point.

That said, even if such people did exist in large numbers why would it matter or be any concern of ours what they did with their own bodies multiple times, if one doesn't believe that abortion is the taking of the life of the unborn surely it matters not if you have 1 or 100?

If you believe it is the taking of a human life, 1 is too many.

How often should a woman take the MAP?

NuMarvel · 14-05-2018 08:26AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

Whether abortion is the killing of an unborn child or the removal of unwanted clumps of cells is the crux of this entire issue.

This referendum isn't about what abortion is, or if the unborn is a sentient human being, or any of that other stuff. It's simply about where, and by extension how, women have abortions.

Vote No if you want women to continue having abortions abroad, or here in secret. Both of these increase the risks to the woman's health, and maybe even her life.

Vote Yes if you want women to be able to have regulated, safer abortions here, which in turn will lead to earlier abortions.

That's the crux of this referendum. Women are already having abortions, and will continue doing so, no matter what. A No vote helps no one, but a Yes vote at least helps women.

Muzzymor · 14-05-2018 08:29AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Again, at 12 weeks, there is no brain, no nervous system, no sentience, nothing going on.

It seems a very narrowminded view to take.
If not for the intervention of modern medicine, the 12 week old clump of cells is well on the way to having all of those things you mentioned.
The only way it won't, is if we destroy that growing life form.
The exact status at 12 weeks seems like a cop out way of ignoring the bigger picture. I guess it comes down to a different way of thinking. you can draw a line at the status of a 12 week foetus and declare it not a living human worthy of rights, despite the fact that the only reason it won't have all those things you mentioned is if we kill it. I can't. At 12 weeks the process is in motion, the child is growing and if left alone will have a brain, sentience etc etc just like the rest of us went through that process and were lucky enough not to be killed.

Muzzymor · 14-05-2018 08:34AM

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

you are wasting your time.
This will be ignored so the "murder" rhetoric can be wheeled out.

They think they have some divine rights over everyones bodies, act like they are good christians but would have no problem watching a woman die, or a rape victim suffer mental issues just so their stance is forced upon everyone.

I am an athiest so you can put away that soundbyte.

I think I have no "divine right" over any human's life, nor does anyone else. That is why I cannot in good conscience support abortion.

Sofiztikated · 14-05-2018 08:35AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

It seems a very narrowminded view to take.
If not for the intervention of modern medicine, the 12 week old clump of cells is well on the way to having all of those things you mentioned.
The only way it won't, is if we destroy that growing life form.
The exact status at 12 weeks seems like a cop out way of ignoring the bigger picture. I guess it comes down to a different way of thinking. you can draw a line at the status of a 12 week foetus and declare it not a living human worthy of rights, despite the fact that the only reason it won't have all those things you mentioned is if we kill it. I can't. At 12 weeks the process is in motion, the child is growing and if left alone will have a brain, sentience etc etc just like the rest of us went through that process and were lucky enough not to be killed.

There's no WILL.

A pregnancy might proceed without issue.
There might be a stillbirth
There might be a miscarriage
There might be a chance the spinal chord doesn't form correctly
There might be a chance organs are missing or outside the body
There might be a chance of any one of a million things to go wrong.

Honestly, its a very simplistic idea to think pregnancy = healthy baby.

Hammer Archer · 14-05-2018 08:38AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

I am an athiest so you can put away that soundbyte.

I think I have no "divine right" over any human's life, nor does anyone else. That is why I cannot in good conscience support abortion.

So by that logic you would support the repeal of the 13th ammendment?

Muzzymor · 14-05-2018 08:40AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

There's no WILL.

A pregnancy might proceed without issue.
There might be a stillbirth
There might be a miscarriage
There might be a chance the spinal chord doesn't form correctly
There might be a chance organs are missing or outside the body
There might be a chance of any one of a million things to go wrong.

Honestly, its a very simplistic idea to think pregnancy = healthy baby.

People get cancer, people have strokes, people get hit by cars, people have heart attacks.

I could list 100 ways that people can die or be killed, but the existence of disease and untimely death is not an argument in favour of the right to kill people, just as your post listing what might potentially go wrong during a pregnancy is not an argument in favour of abortion.

Sofiztikated · 14-05-2018 08:45AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

People get cancer, people have strokes, people get hit by cars, people have heart attacks.

I could list 100 ways that people can die or be killed, but the existence of disease and untimely death is not an argument in favour of the right to kill people, just as your post listing what might potentially go wrong during a pregnancy is not an argument in favour of abortion.

I disagree. The risks of what happens in a pregnancy are exactly what should be used as an argument in favour of an abortion.

Being unaware, either willfully or ignorance, is no argument.

Igotadose · 14-05-2018 08:48AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

If you believe it is the taking of a human life, 1 is too many.

Savita H. was human and alive. Now, due to the eighth, she isn't.

Igotadose · 14-05-2018 08:49AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

People get cancer, people have strokes, people get hit by cars, people have heart attacks.

I could list 100 ways that people can die or be killed, but the existence of disease and untimely death is not an argument in favour of the right to kill people, just as your post listing what might potentially go wrong during a pregnancy is not an argument in favour of abortion.

Uhh... so you're o.k. birthing children without spinal cords. If you believe in fetal pain, how's than 9 months going to be for them?

BabysCoffee · 14-05-2018 08:53AM

I've seen no voters argue women who've been raped should carry their rapists baby. This is sickening to me.

Does this mean that if the woman who was raped is married they would expect her husband to raise someone else's child?

Just shocking and completely heartless not to give women who've been raped the choice to proceed (or not) with a termination if they find themselves pregnant.

citygal93 · 14-05-2018 08:53AM

Muzzymor wrote: »

I am an athiest so you can put away that soundbyte.

I think I have no "divine right" over any human's life, nor does anyone else. That is why I cannot in good conscience support abortion.

Neither voting yes or no is supporting abortion.

Voting yes will make the abortions that are already happening in this country legal and remove the 14 year prison sentence that women face.

Voting no is a vote for illegal, unsafe abortions. We've already voted the 13th and 14th amendments in to allow our women to travel, so unless these are also repealed, your vote No is saying you are ok with this.

gmisk · 14-05-2018 08:57AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I disagree. The risks of what happens in a pregnancy are exactly what should be used as an argument in favour of an abortion.

Being unaware, either willfully or ignorance, is no argument.

This is it exactly for me.
Just look at the Michelle Harte case for example.

Also welcome Muzzymor another new account pretty much posting solely on this page voting No (shock horror). :rolleyes:

14-05-2018 09:02AM

cournioni wrote: »

Rape is another reason why I’m undecided.

If contraception doesn’t work then I’m afraid it’s a case of “if you play, you pay”. Unfortunate reality for people, but that is for sex educators to make clear to people. Not enough people in this country are accountable for their actions whether in work, life or in bed, they need to be.

So you understand that no contraception is 100% affective yes?
If you play, you pay? Sounds like a punishment......... Do you think children should be brought into the world to punish their mothers?

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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