8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Justin Credible Darts

the part the No brigade seem intent on deflecting from is regardless of the outcome of the vote, the number of abortions wont change in this country.

Its almost like the no brigade think a No vote will somehow think its not happening.
Its only a matter of time before it will be legal in this country,if not this vote then the next.

cournioni

volchitsa wrote: »

But it's not other people on other countries, it's the same Irish people going to another country to commit an act that is considered killing in Ireland.

Gail O Rorke was not allowed travel to assist her friend's suicide in Switzerland but we allow (we had a referendum on it) women to take their unborn to England to kill them.

This "Ah we can't tell the English what to do" is just such a cop out. I'm not talking about the English. These are Irish women. Would you allow them take their daughters to Somalia or somewhere to have FGM carried out on them?

I wasn’t able to vote in that referendum so I did not have any say in that matter I’m afraid. Nor do I have a right to vote in any of the aforementioned countries to have my say.

Point stands though, I think killing healthy unborn children is wrong, no matter where it is.

Sofiztikated

Montgolfier wrote: »

Why give a woman a choice? Because she deserves one like any human being. This is why amnesty international want a yes vote.
The way I see it, is its about the law being part of medical procedure's.
My wife was told she had a missed miscarriage after her 9 week scan. Because the baby stopped developing after 6 weeks and her body believed she was still pregnant by the law she had to carry it for another week to check if it was alive.
Doctors and midwife told her their hands were tied by law. She was devastated, not only did get heart breaking news but her ordeal was dragged out another 2 weeks for no good reason. There are a lot more serious cases of fatal fetal abnormalities where women had to carry the pregency to full term.
These are the women who need a Yes vote!

And yes some women may get abortion on demand but guess what? They are also the people who will hop on a 30euro Ryanair flight to the UK.

You got to have faith in the good women out there, your mother, your sister, your daughter.

You have my sympathy, my wife and I were in a similar position.

People get too wrapped up in the thought of Jacinta, with da hoopy earrings, getting the ride most nights, and an abortion for the Craic, and and they let innocent women suffer on, without a thought.

Muzzymor

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Where have I said it was worse than any medical procedure ?
That's right I never said that. You just conjured up that.

If you actually read what I wrote I said it was just my personal opinion seeing as I will never be having one as a man.


Just because I might not agree in theory with abortion as a man, who am I to tell women what they can and cannot do.
The sheer arrogance of the no brigade that they think they have some god given right to lecture women on their bodies is beyond arrogant.


I know of 2 men voting yes, simply because of the arrogance of the No brigade.

You started the post I quoted by stating that you and your wife don't agree with abortion. I asked why, which I thought was a reasonable question.

erica74

cournioni wrote: »

Rape is another reason why I’m undecided.

If contraception doesn’t work then I’m afraid it’s a case of “if you play, you pay”. Unfortunate reality for people, but that is for sex educators to make clear to people. Not enough people in this country are accountable for their actions whether in work, life or in bed, they need to be.

And what is your suggestion for women and girls who have been raped, the victims of incest, living in abusive relationships, who become pregnant and need an abortion?

volchitsa

cournioni wrote: »

This is the thing that leaves most people undecided and everyone’s opinion is different on it.

Personally, I believe that there is enough contraception out there in order for people stop pregnancy without the need for taking away the life of a perfectly healthy unborn. People need to be responsible for their own actions without resorting to taking life away from another living being.

I'm always puzzled by this weaponizing of children approach - "let's punish the irresponsible by giving them a baby to bring up, so they can ruin its life too" but let's say we agree on that bit - so we apply that rule in general right?

So we don't need mountain rescue because if people would just obey the rules there should be no accidents and they should just be responsible.

People make mistakes. We don't tell them, "Ha, your own fault, off you go and get out of this yourself. Go to the UK". But we do for pregnancy. Why?

Another thing is the calculation : even at 99.9% efficacy (which is probably about as accurate as the petrol consumption figures car dealers give) they still means that of 1000 women who use the pill perfectly every year, one will still get pregnant. And women are fertile for over 30 years. So that's actually 30 women out of a 1000 over a lifetime of fertility.

And the pregnancy is 100% for each of those women. And then there are those who can't use to pill for medical reasons, and so on.

It's as realistic to say nobody should get pregnant as to say there should be no road accidents or industrial accidents. There just are. That's life.

cournioni

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

the part the No brigade seem intent on deflecting from is regardless of the outcome of the vote, the number of abortions wont change in this country.

Its almost like the no brigade think a No vote will somehow think its not happening.
Its only a matter of time before it will be legal in this country,if not this vote then the next.

They shouldn’t even bother to vote so. Just lay down and allow it to happen. Ridiculous statement.

You’re almost saying there is no need for a yes vote, sure Ryanair are very cheap these days.

cournioni

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm always puzzled by this weaponizing of children approach - "let's punish the irresponsible by giving them a baby to bring up, so they can ruin its life too" but let's say we agree on that bit - so we apply that rule in general right?

So we don't need mountain rescue because if people would just obey the rules there should be no accidents and they should just be responsible.

People make mistakes. We don't tell them, "Ha, your own fault, off you go and get out of this yourself. Go to the UK". But we do for pregnancy. Why?

Another thing is the calculation : even at 99.9% efficacy (which is probably about as accurate as the petrol consumption figures car dealers give) they still means that of 1000 women who use the pill perfectly every year, one will still get pregnant. And women are fertile for over 30 years. So that's actually 30 women out of a 1000 over a lifetime of fertility.

And the pregnancy is 100% for each of those women. And then there are those who can't use to pill for medical reasons, and so on.

It's as realistic to say nobody should get pregnant as to say there should be no road accidents or industrial accidents. There just are. That's life.

That’s life indeed. Couldn’t have said it better.

volchitsa

cournioni wrote: »

I wasn’t able to vote in that referendum so I did not have any say in that matter I’m afraid. Nor do I have a right to vote in any of the aforementioned countries to have my say.

Point stands though, I think killing healthy unborn children is wrong, no matter where it is.

Okay, so what are you doing to stop it?
A vote against repealing the 8th isn't going to do that, you know that, right?

But it is going to harm women who need all sorts of medical care, including epilepsy treatment and cancer treatment, just because they are - or even just might be - pregnant.

Is their health not important, when those abortions are going to take place anyway? That's the effect the 8th has, not in stopping abortion.

Justin Credible Darts

Muzzymor wrote: »

You said that you and your wife "disagree" with abortion. I asked why, which I thought was a reasonable question.

One of my reasons is down to the simple logic that I have no right to tell a woman what she can do with her body.


And what about rape victims,forced to carry a rapists child, because some arrogant people dont like abortion.


If abortion is legal and you dont agree with it, dont have one, but to try dictate your beliefs onto others is wrong, people should have the right to choose.

cournioni

erica74 wrote: »

And what is your suggestion for women and girls who have been raped, the victims of incest, living in abusive relationships, who become pregnant and need an abortion?

What’s yours for the healthy children who are born into these horrendous situations? It’s not exactly black and white.

Sofiztikated

Muzzymor wrote: »

, if someone had 10 abortions people would have a gut reaction to that and all I am asking is why?
.
. Why is that? What is so hard about getting a load of nothing, a non living thing taken out of your body?

If someone was having 10 abortions, I'd be concerned about the impact on her body, and concerned about her wellbeing.

Why is it hard? Because there's very few that don't know that a pregnancy leads (quite often) to a baby. But at 12 weeks, like its suggested here, that baby isn't there. Its forming, no doubt, but there's noone at home.

King of Kings

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

the part the No brigade seem intent on deflecting from is regardless of the outcome of the vote, the number of abortions wont change in this country.

Its almost like the no brigade think a No vote will somehow think its not happening.
Its only a matter of time before it will be legal in this country,if not this vote then the next.

if its available here and legal it will become a much easier and common decision .

I sure if the referendum is defeated we can fight the next battle if / when it arises.

volchitsa

cournioni wrote: »

That’s life indeed. Couldn’t have said it better.

And when accidents happen, we try to fix them. We don't say, "Tough, you should have been careful."

Terminating a pregnancy is also one of the options, for some people. If you don't think it's right, you don't have to do it. But locking a woman in a mental hospital because she doesn't agree with you isn't something normal countries do.

Yet that is what has happened in Ireland.

erica74

cournioni wrote: »

What’s yours for the healthy children who are born into these horrendous situations? It’s not exactly black and white.

You didn't answer my question? You already said you're undecided on victims of rape, where is your mind at, what are you thinking about it?

kylith

Pac1Man wrote: »

I'll be voting no anyways. I feel there's a certain obligation and responsibility to raise a child if you fall pregnant, whatever the circumstance.

Even if the foetus won’t survive birth? Even if the woman’s health will be impacted? What’s your opinion on the fact that pregnant women hav no say over what medical procedures are performed on them while pregnant? Are you happy for pregnnt women to be denied medical treatment?

Sofiztikated

King of Kings wrote: »

if its available here and legal it will become a much easier and common decision .

I sure if the referendum is defeated we can fight the next battle if / when it arises.

Its at the end of a click of a button. How much easier does it have to become?

Let's just make it safer.

Macha

cournioni wrote: »

Macha wrote: »

No contraception is 100% effective.Also rape?

Rape is another reason why I’m undecided.

If contraception doesn’t work then I’m afraid it’s a case of “if you play, you pay”. Unfortunate reality for people, but that is for sex educators to make clear to people. Not enough people in this country are accountable for their actions whether in work, life or in bed, they need to be.

So then we're back to advocating abstinence. I have had a hellish three years with my son born with a birth anomaly, ten full hospitalisations and countless trips to A&E when he's not breathing properly, both parents having treatment for cancer and my mother dying last year. Oh, and I had a missed miscarriage last year. I see one therapist to save my sanity and my partner and I see another to save our relationship. If I were to have a crisis pregnancy, I would crack up, stop functioning. My relationship would end and my son would not get the support from me that he needs, also to make sure he gets the medical care he needs. In the middle of all this, I should tell my partner that we should stop with the only moments we share where we feel normal and close?

Would I be a 'hard case'? Does my relationship matter? Does my son's quality of life matter? Do I matter?

King of Kings

kylith wrote: »

Even if the foetus won’t survive birth? Even if the woman’s health will be impacted? What’s your opinion on the fact that pregnant women hav no say over what medical procedures are performed on them while pregnant? Are you happy for pregnnt women to be denied medical treatment?

if that was the choice then id vote for repeal but it isnt.
the choice is the current situation or abortion to 12 weeks unrestricted and longer if deemed necessary.

Its not an easy choice but I cant vote for the proposal.


I am well aware the repeal doesnt bring in 12 weeks but that is what the government will put through the dail if ths 8th is repealed.
so in practial terms that is what we are voting on.

Justin Credible Darts

King of Kings wrote: »

if its available here and legal it will become a much easier and common decision .

I sure if the referendum is defeated we can fight the next battle if / when it arises.

Easier , Yes.
More Common...that I dont believe.


Just because something is legal and there does not mean you will avail of it.
Same sex marraige is there, does not mean straight men are suddenly marrying other men.


The people who want them will still get them, be it here or the UK or wherever.
My wife who dont agree with abortion wont suddenly change her mind cos its legal.
But at least that option will be there for those that do want it.

B0jangles

As it stands, the 8th now only really prevents abortion in cases where the woman is too poor, too sick or too trapped by abuse to travel.

In other words, the 8th is best at preventing abortion in the circumstances which many people who object to 'abortion on demand' think should be allowed.

It makes a terrible situation even more difficult and traumatic for people with diagnosis of Fatal Fetal Abnormality, for no benefit to anyone. It adds a terrifying extra danger to the life of any woman diagnosed with cancer and who is capable of becoming pregnant.

Many seem to be willing to accept these people's suffering as collateral damage to prevent so-called 'abortion on demand'.

The 8th is largely incapable of preventing abortion under 12 weeks, due to the availability of the pills online, it just makes the situation less safe.

Please read about the effect the 8th has on women's healthcare - if you are planning to vote to retain it, you really really ought to.

Muzzymor

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

One of my reasons is down to the simple logic that I have no right to tell a woman what she can do with her body.


And what about rape victims,forced to carry a rapists child, because some arrogant people dont like abortion.


If abortion is legal and you dont agree with it, dont have one, but to try dictate your beliefs onto others is wrong, people should have the right to choose.

You said that you and your wife don't agree with abortion and you have yet to explain what about it you don't agree with.

I am asking a simple question about why people say abortion is the most difficult thing a woman can do etc etc, if they don't believe that what is being aborted is a living thing.

If I believe abortion is the taking of a life, how can I accept it in certain circumstances? Just as I can't accept murder of a newborn due to povery, rape or any other reason, I can't.
I believe in the harshest penalties for rapists, the greatest amount of care and resources devoted to victims. But I cannot accept the killing of the innocent unborn as an acceptable outcome.

"Don't like abortion don't have one" lowers the tone of discussion. "don't like murder, don't murder someone". Do you see how your soundbyte shows your failure to grasp the objections people have to abortion?

It seems to be an attempt to draw equivalence between the gay marriage referendum and the abortion referendum. Using myself as an example, I was completely in favour of gay marriage rights, as it does not harm anyone else. I cannot support abortion though.

volchitsa

cournioni wrote: »

Rape is another reason why I’m undecided.

If contraception doesn’t work then I’m afraid it’s a case of “if you play, you pay”. Unfortunate reality for people, but that is for sex educators to make clear to people. Not enough people in this country are accountable for their actions whether in work, life or in bed, they need to be.

So the child is to be used as punishment.

You don't think that shows a terrible disrespect for the value of human life?

What of a married couple with other children - they have to be celibate? And if they end up splitting up because of that, and the children lose a united family, it's all worth it because???

Sofiztikated

Muzzymor wrote: »

You said that you and your wife don't agree with abortion and you have yet to explain what about it you don't agree with.

I am asking a simple question about why people say abortion is the most difficult thing a woman can do etc etc, if they don't believe that what is being aborted is a living thing.

If I believe abortion is the taking of a life, how can I accept it in certain circumstances? Just as I can't accept murder of a newborn due to povery, rape or any other reason, I can't.
I believe in the harshest penalties for rapists, the greatest amount of care and resouces devoted to victims. But I cannot accept the killing of the unborn as an acceptable outcome.

"Don't like abortion don't have one" lowers the tone of discussion. "don't like murder, don't murder someone". Do you see how your soundbyte shows your failure to grasp the objections people have to abortion?

It seems to be an attempt to draw equivalence between gay marriage referendum and the abortion referendum. Using myself as an example, I was completely in favour of gay marriage rights, as it does not harm anyone else. I cannot support abortion though.

If murder was legalised in the morning, would you be straight out killing?

King of Kings

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Its at the end of a click of a button. How much easier does it have to become?

Let's just make it safer.

id rather vote to keep out of ireland. not that im blind to that fact some pregnancies are difficult (in a broad sense) but morally I cant abide by ending the life of the child unless their is a very good reason...such as a medical one.

as mentioned above in a previous comment that isnt the choice on offer.

erica74

King of Kings wrote: »

id rather vote to keep out of ireland. not that im blind to that fact some pregnancies are difficult (in a broad sense) but morally I cant abide by ending the life of the child unless their is a very good reason...such as a medical one.

as mentioned above in a previous comment that isnt the choice on offer.

So NIMBY?

Sofiztikated

King of Kings wrote: »

id rather vote to keep out of ireland. not that im blind to that fact some pregnancies are difficult (in a broad sense) but morally I cant abide by ending the life of the child unless their is a very good reason...such as a medical one.

as mentioned above in a previous comment that isnt the choice on offer.

But thats the fact of it. By voting no, you are not keeping it out of Ireland. By voting no, you are just keeping your head in the sand.

EDIT: and if it were a medical context, could you list all the medical conditions where it should be available?

B0jangles

King of Kings wrote: »

id rather vote to keep out of ireland. not that im blind to that fact some pregnancies are difficult (in a broad sense) but morally I cant abide by ending the life of the child unless their is a very good reason...such as a medical one.

as mentioned above in a previous comment that isnt the choice on offer.

A vote to keep the 8th does nothing for you then - it cannot prevent women from travelling and the state is doing nothing to prevent the ordering of pills online.


The people whose suffering you are not blind to? They'll still suffer.

neonsofa

cournioni wrote: »

What’s yours for the healthy children who are born into these horrendous situations? It’s not exactly black and white.

But abortion prevents this from happening. Prevents a baby being born into an awful situation where the parents cannot parent properly or provide a safe and secure home. Telling women that if they have sex they must suffer the consequences is also saying that a child should be brought into the situation to suffer the consequences. I do understandthat there are people who view termination as taking a formed life, rather than preventing a life from forming, and I suppose that is the issue, but the quality of life that a child is offered is important and a child being born because "you play, you pay" is hardly the best start in life. Now you may argue that it's still life and I won't change your mind if that's your stance but quality of life, ability of parents, it's all hugely important for a happy and healthy child, otherwise it's just a mother and child being punished becuase she had sex.

kylith

King of Kings wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

Even if the foetus won’t survive birth? Even if the woman’s health will be impacted? What’s your opinion on the fact that pregnant women hav no say over what medical procedures are performed on them while pregnant? Are you happy for pregnnt women to be denied medical treatment?

if that was the choice then id vote for repeal but it isnt.
the choice is the current situation or abortion to 12 weeks unrestricted and longer if deemed necessary.

Its not an easy choice but I cant vote for the proposal.


I am well aware the repeal doesnt bring in 12 weeks but that is what the government will put through the dail if ths 8th is repealed.
so in practial terms that is what we are voting on.

So lobby against it. The only way to legislate for the cases I laid out is to repeal the 8th. A vote against repeal is a vote to continue denying women, many of whom want to be pregnant, medical care until they are actively dying.