8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

smartz · 13-05-2018 06:11PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

For your solution to work, every rape victim would have to report their attack before they know they are pregnant be it to a medical or Garda official, while ignoring the fact that many rape victims never report their attack for fear of not being believed, or judged even if their attacker is found guilty such as was seen in the support Danny Foley received in Kerry.

It also would mean that for it not to be used for any other reason that a woman believes they require an abortion for, a victim would be unable to refuse to have a forensic examination to prove they have been raped as they currently can due to the further trauma this can cause.

It is an unworkable solution and I'm sorry to say shows your poor knowledge of how rape affects the victim.

The purposed legislation handles it and any other reason a woman decides to have an abortion for much better.

I suggested a much looser approach. In any case it could be trialed for a year or two and it would become fairly obvious if the figures were out of line with the estimated rape figures.

13-05-2018 06:12PM

thee glitz wrote: »

So report it. No need to worry about being believed unless it's happening every week. Just report it, over the phone.

Given this and your other comments regarding rape victims, you really seem to have a problem with them and women in general.

13-05-2018 06:14PM

smartz wrote: »

I suggested a much looser approach. In any case it could be trialed for a year or two and it would become fairly obvious if the figures were out of line with the estimated rape figures.

That's the thing figures for rape are just an estimate due to the number of victims who don't report their attacks.

B0jangles · 13-05-2018 06:16PM

Remember that TheJournal article about the facebook tool accidentally revealing where the page managers for campaign pages are based?

http://www.thejournal.ie/facebook-referendum-4007469-May2018/?utm_source=shortlink

The Guardian has an article now which is basically the same, so looks like the story is legit

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/12/ireland-abortion-campaign-foreign-influence-facebook

wexie · 13-05-2018 06:16PM

smartz wrote: »

I suggested a much looser approach. In any case it could be trialed for a year or two and it would become fairly obvious if the figures were out of line with the estimated rape figures.

But you still haven't gotten close to suggesting a system that wouldn't cause more problems than it would solve and that could be implemented without huge costs (both financial and emotional).

January · 13-05-2018 06:19PM

thee glitz wrote: »

So report it. No need to worry about being believed unless it's happening every week. Just report it, over the phone.

What if the woman is being raped by her husband and is fearful of her family being split up by it, women often feel worthless in these situations and even though they're being abused don't feel strong enough to report their abuser.

What if it's a child, who has been told that if she tells anybody she's being abused/raped they'll kill them/their family (it happens, you just have to read any of the trashy mags like take a break to see that loads are sworn to secrecy by threat of harm to them or family members if they do tell).

Reporting is not as easy as it sounds.

smartz · 13-05-2018 06:20PM

wexie wrote: »

But you still haven't gotten close to suggesting a system that wouldn't cause more problems than it would solve and that could be implemented without huge costs (both financial and emotional).

I have proposed the barebones of such a system. Obviously much smarter people than me would need to work out the details. From what I recall the legal experts to the Dail committee suggested that such a system would be very challenging but not impossible to implement.
Nevertheless it wouldn't be satisfactory to anybody who thinks that abortion should be available on wider grounds than just rape/FFA/health grounds.

wexie · 13-05-2018 06:24PM

smartz wrote: »

I have proposed the barebones of such a system.

And I posed a whole heap of question in reply to your barebones system with you've yet to answer.

And while you're of course under no obligation to do so it's a bit too easy to say you think a workable system could be devised and then when asked how to hide behind : well I'm sure smarter people could figure it out?

If you genuinely believe that such a system could be found why not throw it up here and let us (respectfully) scrutinize it?

I genuinely do not believe a system as such could be found, to the best of my knowledge none exist anywhere else in the world.

bootpaws · 13-05-2018 06:25PM

smartz wrote: »

I suggested a much looser approach. In any case it could be trialed for a year or two and it would become fairly obvious if the figures were out of line with the estimated rape figures.

I don't know if you read my last reply, but just to reiterate: for your ideas to even be an option, the 8th has to be repealed.

If you don't like the idea of women having to carry their rapist's baby to term, there is no other way to get us solve that than by repealing the 8th, because the 8th amendment allows for no grey areas, no middle ground, no debate, nothing at all.

It doesn't sound to me like you're undecided at all. It sounds to me like you understand that there are situations that are not black and white, and beyond that you just are wary of the legislation that may follow.

I feel that although you may have concerns, you will hopefully understand that the only way to have them addressed is by voting Yes.

I hope you can read around this thread and find the posts other people have made detailing why the proposed legislation is the easiest, best, and most humane option for all involved.

Sofiztikated · 13-05-2018 06:27PM

smartz wrote: »

I suggested a much looser approach. In any case it could be trialed for a year or two and it would become fairly obvious if the figures were out of line with the estimated rape figures.

To be honest, I understand what your intentions are.

However, putting those restrictions in place, and people still having access to England and internet pills, you are not stopping abortions.

Ave Sodalis · 13-05-2018 06:27PM

smartz wrote: »

I have proposed the barebones of such a system. Obviously much smarter people than me would need to work out the details. From what I recall the legal experts to the Dail committee suggested that such a system would be very challenging but not impossible to implement.
Nevertheless it wouldn't be satisfactory to anybody who thinks that abortion should be available on wider grounds than just rape/FFA/health grounds.

I think there's too many "what about"s. For example, a recent story on In Her Shoes was a 16 year old who was in an abusive relationship. It wouldn't be considered rape. There's a poster on here who share his story about his wife who's pregnancy needs to implant at the right place. It wouldn't be considered FFA if it doesn't. There's another poster who needed an abortion because she couldn't afford any more children after her contraception failed. It's neither rape, nor FFA. You can't account for every necessary case.

thee glitz · 13-05-2018 06:28PM

fxotoole wrote: »

Report it to whom? And would the organisation that you report it to be legally obliged to inform the Gardaí?

Report it to a Rape Crisis Centre. Yes, the Gardaí should be informed that a rape has been reported. If the victim is willing for the general area in which it occured to also be, all the better.

13-05-2018 06:29PM

smartz wrote: »

I have proposed the barebones of such a system. Obviously much smarter people than me would need to work out the details. From what I recall the legal experts to the Dail committee suggested that such a system would be very challenging but not impossible to implement.
Nevertheless it wouldn't be satisfactory to anybody who thinks that abortion should be available on wider grounds than just rape/FFA/health grounds.

Even if we did go with such an unworkable solution the pro life campaign, love both, and plenty of posters on here would still be calling for a no vote as they believe that a rape victim should carry to term.

The argument that your trying to make also ignores these facts and is often used I'm sorry to say by many posters who come into the thread claiming their undecided or on the fence and then argue for just the no side.
I'm not saying that you are doing this, but if you've read the threads you will see this and understand your solution isn't workable and wouldn't be supported by the no side either.

Ave Sodalis · 13-05-2018 06:29PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Report it to a Rape Crisis Centre. Yes, the Gardaí should be informed that a rape has been reported. If the victim is willing for the general area in which it occured to also be, all the better.

And then what?

smartz · 13-05-2018 06:32PM

bootpaws wrote: »

I don't know if you read my last reply, but just to reiterate: for your ideas to even be an option, the 8th has to be repealed.

If you don't like the idea of women having to carry their rapist's baby to term, there is no other way to get us solve that than by repealing the 8th, because the 8th amendment allows for no grey areas, no middle ground, no debate, nothing at all.

It doesn't sound to me like you're undecided at all. It sounds to me like you understand that there are situations that are not black and white, and beyond that you just are wary of the legislation that may follow.

I feel that although you may have concerns, you will hopefully understand that the only way to have them addressed is by voting Yes.

I hope you can read around this thread and find the posts other people have made detailing why the proposed legislation is the easiest, best, and most humane option for all involved.

I did read your last reply, thanks for your input.
I assure you I am quite undecided. I realise the inadequacies of the 8th, however I feel Its a bit disingenuous to suggest that it logically follows that a Yes vote is the only option, because the repeal vote is not being proposed in a vacuum, we have the heads of the legislation which the government intend to enact.

spookwoman · 13-05-2018 06:33PM

smartz wrote: »

I suggested a much looser approach. In any case it could be trialed for a year or two and it would become fairly obvious if the figures were out of line with the estimated rape figures.

and what about the women that don't meet the criteria to get an abortion for rape cases because as it was said they don't tick all the boxes while it's being trialed.
Raped women feel shame etc, others don't report for whatever reason which includes abusive relationships.
Those women that do report and want an abortion because they were raped whats to happen to them while they are assessed. we know what happened in 2016 when the 17 year old went to the hse for an abortion, she was detained in a psychiatric hospital against her will. This is why I think abortion up to 12 weeks should be available with no questions.
http://www.thejournal.ie/girl-seeking-abortion-detained-psychiatric-unit-3439161-Jun2017/

13-05-2018 06:34PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Report it to a Rape Crisis Centre. Yes, the Gardaí should be informed that a rape has been reported. If the victim is willing for the general area in which it occured to also be, all the better.

The rape crisis centre is a confidential service and will not inform the gardai as it would ruin the trust anyone who goes to them would have. They would also not be in the position to provide an abortion to a victim or refer them to a medical professional who would do so.

Again yor just report it attitude shows no understanding or sympathy for a rape victim.

13-05-2018 06:42PM

thee glitz wrote: »

So report it. No need to worry about being believed unless it's happening every week. Just report it, over the phone.

To who?
Gardai? Reporting a rape over the phone is not good enough. A statement would have to be taken, & a medical done.
It's not easy for Victims to go through it all.

bootpaws · 13-05-2018 06:46PM

smartz wrote: »

I did read your last reply, thanks for your input.
I assure you I am quite undecided. I realise the inadequacies of the 8th, however I feel Its a bit disingenuous to suggest that it logically follows that a Yes vote is the only option, because the repeal vote is not being proposed in a vacuum, we have the heads of the legislation which the government intend to enact.

I don't feel it's disingenuous at all, honestly.

We already know that women in our country are accessing abortion services as is. They're just not doing so safely. They're traveling to England and back home within a day, or they're ordering pills online, and that's if they're lucky.

The less fortunate are resorting to more unsafe and desperate measures. They're forcing coat hangers inside themselves. They're drinking chemicals. They're throwing themselves down stairs.

You seem to have sympathy for women in tough situations. I am not having a go at you, I truly want you to understand that whether you like the proposed legislation or not, the facts are as follows:

If you believe it's wrong that women are forced to carry a rapist's baby, the 8th must be repealed.

If you believe it's wrong that women are forced to carry a foetus that has no hope of survival, the 8th must be repealed.

If you believe it's wrong that women can be denied cancer treatments, the 8th must be repealed.

If you believe it's wrong that women can be told "your situation could lead to death. But we must wait for you to begin dying before we intervene." then the 8th must be repealed.

I know you have concerns, and I do understand this. But surely any and all concerns about what may happen pale in comparison to what already is happening to women right now.

thee glitz · 13-05-2018 06:48PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

thee glitz wrote: »

So report it. No need to worry about being believed unless it's happening every week. Just report it, over the phone.

Given this and your other comments regarding rape victims, you really seem to have a problem with them and women in general.

What's wrong with reporting it? Do you not think that rapes should be reported - what about anonymously? That a Rape Crisis Centre can't be trusted to keep your details confidential until they may be required?

How do I 'have a problem' with rape victims?

I entirely reject your reprehensible claim of misogyny.

Sofiztikated · 13-05-2018 06:55PM

thee glitz wrote: »

What's wrong with reporting it? Do you not think that rapes should be reported - what about anonymously? That a Rape Crisis Centre can't be trusted to keep your details confidential until they may be required?

How do I 'have a problem' with rape victims?

I entirely reject your reprehensible claim of misogyny.

There's nothing wrong with reporting it.

But not everyone is in a position to report it, immediately.

eviltwin · 13-05-2018 06:56PM

thee glitz wrote: »

What's wrong with reporting it? Do you not think that rapes should be reported - what about anonymously? That a Rape Crisis Centre can't be trusted to keep your details confidential until they may be required?

How do I 'have a problem' with rape victims?

I entirely reject your reprehensible claim of misogyny.

Of course rape should be reported but it's easy for us to say. Try telling that to someone who is in the middle of a trauma, logic doesn't come into it.

BabysCoffee · 13-05-2018 06:57PM

thee glitz wrote: »

What's wrong with reporting it? Do you not think that rapes should be reported - what about anonymously? That a Rape Crisis Centre can't be trusted to keep your details confidential until they may be required?

How do I 'have a problem' with rape victims?

I entirely reject your reprehensible claim of misogyny.

Can you in anyway understand how it might be difficult for a rape victim to report a rape done to her?

Grayson · 13-05-2018 06:58PM

thee glitz wrote: »

What's wrong with reporting it? Do you not think that rapes should be reported - what about anonymously? That a Rape Crisis Centre can't be trusted to keep your details confidential until they may be required?

How do I 'have a problem' with rape victims?

I entirely reject your reprehensible claim of misogyny.

It's the fact that you want them to document their rape. You're essentially criminalising healthcare. They can only access healthcare if they report a crime. There's also the fact that if a trial goes ahead and the defendant is acquitted then what happens to the woman? Is she charged with obtaining an abortion under false pretences? If she isn't then why make her go through reporting it in the first place?

Although I've never understood the reasoning behind giving a rape victim access to abortion and not others. You're essentially saying one person deserves access to healthcare whilst another doesn't. Could you imagine that in any other case. You were stabbed so you get healthcare, you cut yourself by accident so you don't.

kylith · 13-05-2018 07:03PM

thee glitz wrote: »

[
What's wrong with reporting it? Do you not think that rapes should be reported - what about anonymously? That a Rape Crisis Centre can't be trusted to keep your details confidential until they may be required?

How does reporting it anonymously to the Rape Crisis Centre get them on the road to a termination?

13-05-2018 07:04PM

thee glitz wrote: »

What's wrong with reporting it? Do you not think that rapes should be reported - what about anonymously? That a Rape Crisis Centre can't be trusted to keep your details confidential until they may be required?

How do I 'have a problem' with rape victims?

I entirely reject your reprehensible claim of misogyny.

You can reject it but I see from your posts that you've no understanding or sympathy for rape victims and seem to have an issue with them and women since I read your post that they and victims of FFA are a happy convenience for repeal

You ignore the pain and anguish victims feel as well as their fear of judgement that often results in them never talking about their attack to anyone or seek counseling never mind report it to the gardai.

Tom Mann Centuria · 13-05-2018 07:07PM

thee glitz wrote: »

How do I 'have a problem' with rape victims?

I entirely reject your reprehensible claim of misogyny.

Thought crime police have nothing on some of the posters on this thread.

NuMarvel · 13-05-2018 07:08PM

smartz wrote: »

Okay, what would peoples main concerns be with a regime which allowed termination in the case of rape/incest/FFA/health concerns but not otherwise? Is it purely because (1) you feel it is unworkable/logistically impossible or (2) because you feel the woman's right to choose, based on social/economic/familial circumstances, outweighs the unborn/fetus' right to life?

Others have answered this question, and I don't have anything additional to add to what they've said. So can I in turn ask you if you can tell us what your concerns are about the proposed post-referendum laws?

spookwoman · 13-05-2018 07:08PM

thee glitz wrote: »

What's wrong with reporting it? Do you not think that rapes should be reported - what about anonymously? That a Rape Crisis Centre can't be trusted to keep your details confidential until they may be required?

How do I 'have a problem' with rape victims?

I entirely reject your reprehensible claim of misogyny.

I would question confidentiality and data protection issues,

abortion on medical card which is linked to PS card, you know how many different departments have access to info through the ps card.......

13-05-2018 07:18PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Thought crime police have nothing on some of the posters on this thread.

Nope Tom from having to try and help a loved one deal with their rape, and reading his comments in the threads I know he has an issue no thought crime police needed. I stand by this even if it gets me banned

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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