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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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  • #5042
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Her 11 year old son doesn’t need to know or have an opinion on it one way or the other.


    Which is what people are saying.

    The DIY abortion thing is from the website, not what was said to the daughter.


  • #5043
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    Here's the 82.9 figure for medical abortions
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/26/women-scotland-allowed-take-abortion-pill-at-home

    The official report breaks the figures down into abortions up to 9 weeks, 10 to 13 weeks, and above... For Scotland, but it's somewhere around 92% by 12 weeks
    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Links.

    You know the drill, you make the claim, you post the source.

    On mobile at the minute,

    https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/the-abortion-pill

    I'll edit in the report from Scotland when I find it again

    G


  • #5044
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    Wrongway1985 wrote: »
    Anyone hear the woman on liveline yesterday? Voting No, Why? Herself and husband can't have kids of their own and would love to adopt would do anything to have a child, her sister actually even had FFA and she said something should be done for the likes of her but claims friends had terminations for no good reason and it breaks her heart. Asked whether she discussed with her sister she said tension on the subject, I'm sure there is! Seems this woman wanted forced pregnancies to increase chances of adoption and that was more important than what her own sister had to go through. :(

    Is it true that there's no adoption in Ireland? And we only have long term foster care? My understanding as well is that in order to successfully "adopt" a child, one parent must not work or at least only work part time?


  • #5045
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Wrongway1985 wrote: »
    Anyone hear the woman on liveline yesterday? Voting No, Why? Herself and husband can't have kids of their own and would love to adopt would do anything to have a child, her sister actually even had FFA and she said something should be done for the likes of her but claims friends had terminations for no good reason and it breaks her heart. Asked whether she discussed with her sister she said tension on the subject, I'm sure there is! Seems this woman wanted forced pregnancies to increase chances of adoption and that was more important than what her own sister had to go through. :(

    What % of abortions in the UK, for example, do you imagine happen because of FFA and what percentage are because of inconvenience?


  • #5046
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    splinter65 wrote: »
    What % of abortions in the UK, for example, do you imagine happen because of FFA and what percentage are because of inconvenience?

    'Inconvenience'? What's an inconvenience to you?


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  • #5047
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    erica74 wrote: »
    Is it true that there's no adoption in Ireland? And we only have long term foster care? My understanding as well is that in order to successfully "adopt" a child, one parent must not work or at least only work part time?

    There were something like 6 adoptions in Ireland in 2016 or something like that, when you take it that we have thousands of kids in long term foster care the percentages are tiny.


  • #5048
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    pleas advice wrote: »
    On mobile at the minute,

    https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/the-abortion-pill

    I'll edit in the report from Scotland when I find it again

    Good stuff.

    (I didn't doubt you, by the way. I've seen that page before.)

    No medicine, procedure or activity is guaranteed. That's why proper access to medical after care is required.


  • #5049
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    erica74 wrote: »
    Is it true that there's no adoption in Ireland? And we only have long term foster care? My understanding as well is that in order to successfully "adopt" a child, one parent must not work or at least only work part time?
    As far as I'm aware it is practically non existent...open for correction but believe I heard before it was easier to adopt children from outside Ireland than ones born here even.


  • #5050
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    January wrote: »
    'Inconvenience'? What's an inconvenience to you?

    The answer to the ffa is 2%.
    Inconvenience is an umbrella term capturing all the many reasons not covered by medical reasons for mother or child,
    Inconvenience is used by planned parenthood in the US as the umbrella term and is the reason given in 72% of abortions they perform.
    Here’s the UK gov latest report.
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/570040/Updated_Abortion_Statistics_2015.pdf


  • #5051
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    erica74 wrote: »
    Is it true that there's no adoption in Ireland? And we only have long term foster care? My understanding as well is that in order to successfully "adopt" a child, one parent must not work or at least only work part time?

    Nothing really to speak off. Its a long, ****ty process, and if often easier to adopt from abroad.

    A lot of people that want to adopt, want to adopt a baby. If they're in the foster system, its likely they're "too old"

    Same kind of idea with dogs and shelters, everyone wants the puppy, but the older dogs are harder to move.


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  • #5052
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    I read up on adoption a while ago but many an expert by any means. Basically

    1) Irish women don't voluntarily place their children for adoption. It's vanishingly rare.
    2) parental rights are protected by the constitution so when babies & children are taken into care, unless their parents voluntarily sign away their rights, they remain in foster care permanently.
    3) a lot of countries that used to permit international adoption now don't or Ireland doesn't permit adoption with them due to the Hague convention.


  • #5053
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    January wrote: »
    'Inconvenience'? What's an inconvenience to you?

    inconvenience
    ɪnkənˈviːnɪəns
    noun
    1.
    the state or fact of being troublesome or difficult with regard to one's personal requirements or comfort.

    Personally, I'm ok with inconvenience, but I don't like the insinuation that it's on par with forgetting to get milk, or someone calling to the door when you are sitting down for dinner.


  • #5054
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    splinter65 wrote: »
    The answer to the ffa is 2%.
    Inconvenience is an umbrella term capturing all the many reasons not covered by medical reasons for mother or child,
    Inconvenience is used by planned parenthood in the US as the umbrella term and is the reason given in 72% of abortions they perform.
    Here’s the UK gov latest report.
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/570040/Updated_Abortion_Statistics_2015.pdf

    You said this before, and it was pointed out to you by several posters that you were wrong.
    Originally Posted by ohnonotgmail (here)
    except none of the women selected inconvenience as the reason because inconvenience was not offered as an option. Inconvenience was the term used by the website you linked to. Perhaps agenda driven. the actiual options were

    elective
    --too young/immature/not ready for responsibility
    --economic
    --to avoid adjusting life
    --mother single or in poor relationship
    --enough children already
    --sex selection
    --selective reduction 98.3% (87-99 %)
    --? (32 %)
    --30% (25-40 %)
    --? (16 %)
    --? (12-13 %)
    --? (4-8 %)
    --0.1% (<0.1-? %)
    --0.1% (<0.1-0.4 %)
    the original link is http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...abreasons.html


  • #5055
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    splinter65 wrote: »
    What % of abortions in the UK, for example, do you imagine happen because of FFA and what percentage are because of inconvenience?

    We know that over 80% are occurring in the first trimester which is what the proposed legislation covers for "inconvience" further down the line majority are on grounds that complications are with child/mother I would understand.


  • #5056
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    PhoenixParker wrote: »
    I read up on adoption a while ago but many an expert by any means. Basically

    1) Irish women don't voluntarily place their children for adoption. It's vanishingly rare.
    2) parental rights are protected by the constitution so when babies & children are taken into care, unless their parents voluntarily sign away their rights, they remain in foster care permanently.
    3) a lot of countries that used to permit international adoption now don't or Ireland doesn't permit adoption with them due to the Hague convention.

    Considering the fact Ireland has had a dubious history with adoption/fostering, it's not suprising it's rare.

    The town I'm from had a surprising number of adoption and fostering families, quite a number from the mother and baby homes ended up there. My uncle and aunt have 2 adopted children, from a Romanian orphanage. My father in law, and his "brother" were from a M&B home. From the stories I have heard, the impact it has had on the adoptees, and how difficult it is to deal with, personally, I think giving a child up for adoption is a lot harder on both parties (parent and child) than an abortion. I do appreciate that this is just my opinion, and I generally don't bring it up, as I don't have any facts to support my theory.


  • #5057
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    So Facebook accidentally ran a test system yesterday in Ireland and Canada which allowed users to see where accounts were managed from.

    81% of accounts were run solely from Ireland on the Yes side

    37% were run solely from Ireland on the No side

    Edit: article is on The a Journal for whoever wants to read it but the most notable part of it is that the Save the Eighth page is managed by 14 people, none of whom are based here. They all come from the UK, Hungary and two unidentified countries

    That sounds like some made up fake news. Convenient accident leaks information that is favorable to the reader. What’s the source


  • #5058
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    inconvenience is a word used to diminish the impact an unplanned pregnancy can have. An inconvenience to me is missing my bus or having to go back out to the shop because I forgot something. My unplanned pregnancy was akin to an atomic bomb going off in my family. Another child would have had resulted in my having to leave my job, huge financial problems, a high chance of having a third child with special needs.....Inconvenience doesn't come close.


  • #5059
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    pleas advice wrote: »
    Here's the 82.9 figure for medical abortions
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/26/women-scotland-allowed-take-abortion-pill-at-home

    The official report breaks the figures down into abortions up to 9 weeks, 10 to 13 weeks, and above... For Scotland, but it's somewhere around 92% by 12 weeks


    On mobile at the minute,

    https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/the-abortion-pill

    I'll edit in the report from Scotland when I find it again

    G

    Thanks for the update on the Guardian link.

    That 82.9% figure is a percentage of ALL terminations are ones that happen by 12 weeks, and are medically induced though, not a effective rate though.

    The 92% effective rate though, that is impressively high, and leaves a comfortable margin for those unable to use the medication, or where medication failed. I'm ok with those figures, however I'd like to heard your opinion.


  • #5060
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Overheal wrote: »
    That sounds like some made up fake news. Convenient accident leaks information that is favorable to the reader. What’s the source

    I was thinking it was a big too good to be true, but the article says
    TheJournal.ie contact Save The 8th for a statement on managers of the page outside of Ireland.
    The spokesperson refused to comment on the questions raised.


    Which, while it does not prove the allegations are true, if they were false you'd think they be a lot faster about denying them wholeheartedly.


  • #5061
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Overheal wrote: »
    That sounds like some made up fake news. Convenient accident leaks information that is favorable to the reader. What’s the source

    I heard something on the radio yesterday, about Gardai investigating it. Can't for the life of me think what station it was on, could have been iRadio at around 3 o'clock.

    There's links a few pages page to screen shots of the pages and author locations.


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  • #5062
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Talking to your 11 year old without consideration or authorisation isn't on, and is as bad as those
    No posters targeting schools.

    Any chance you could lodge a complaint with them?

    Yes, I plan to. Maybe it would be better if my wife made the complaint. As I understand it, there are more than a few in that group who....how should I say this?...hate men.
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Unclear what your issue is here. Are you objecting to what they call it? Or what they mean by it?

    What they call it is not exactly pleasant, but I am not seeing why it should be either. What would you prefer after all? Do you think it should sound like sweetness and light?

    DIY Abortion sounds horrible. I'm doing some work on my pond. That's DIY. Using it to describe the termination of a pregnancy is very cold.

    There is nothing "sweet" about abortion, but if they want to inform women of the alternatives, then they really should be a bit more respectful and considerate. How about///

    Unwanted Pregnancy? There are alternatives to travel. Click here to find out more.

    Or is that too simple?


  • #5063
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    I'm ok with those figures, however I'd like to heard your opinion.

    I'm just countering the claim that all abortions up to 12 weeks will be medical. The abortion pills aren't effective over 10 weeks. About 10% of abortions before 12 weeks are surgical


  • #5064
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    eviltwin wrote: »
    inconvenience is a word used to diminish the impact an unplanned pregnancy can have.
    Exactly. They advise you not to get a dog unless you can provide the care, attention, and financial security for 15 years, and a child is a much greater responsibility than a pet.


  • #5065
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    goz83 wrote: »
    Yes, I plan to. Maybe it would be better if my wife made the complaint. As I understand it, there are more than a few in that group who....how should I say this?...hate men.



    DIY Abortion sounds horrible. I'm doing some work on my pond. That's DIY. Using it to describe the termination of a pregnancy is very cold.

    There is nothing "sweet" about abortion, but if they want to inform women of the alternatives, then they really should be a bit more respectful and considerate. How about///

    Unwanted Pregnancy? There are alternatives to travel. Click here to find out more.

    Or is that too simple?
    respectfully my good man, DIY abortion is the reality for many. There’s no access to professional landscapers and pond makers here: the 8th forbids it. Nobody else is helping you do it. You literally have to do it yourself, and not get caught - and hope that you’re doing it right, and hope that the oral abortifacents you bought online aren’t dodgy


  • #5066
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    goz83 wrote: »
    Yes, I plan to. Maybe it would be better if my wife made the complaint. As I understand it, there are more than a few in that group who....how should I say this?...hate men.



    DIY Abortion sounds horrible. I'm doing some work on my pond. That's DIY. Using it to describe the termination of a pregnancy is very cold.

    There is nothing "sweet" about abortion, but if they want to inform women of the alternatives, then they really should be a bit more respectful and considerate. How about///

    Unwanted Pregnancy? There are alternatives to travel. Click here to find out more.

    Or is that too simple?

    To be honest, I just don't think you are the intended "target" for their message. I've looked at their page, I gave it a bit of a sigh and an eyeroll.

    But the DIY bit? That's exactly what it is, how to Do It Yourself. It's the same as you might look up how to stitch up a wound, in the wilderness. DIY.

    EDIT: Actually, looking back, I'm fairly sure I was talking to one of their campaigners, I posted about talking to one a while back. The logo looks like her badge. She was a smart, capable, articulate young woman, maybe in her mid 20's. Definitely wasn't one with THAT look. But there are definitely some people that shouldn't be talking to people. (I'm probably one of them, I get a bit wound up.)
    pleas advice wrote: »
    I'm just countering the claim that all abortions up to 12 weeks will be medical. The abortion pills aren't effective over 10 weeks. About 10% of abortions before 12 weeks are surgical

    They ARE effective though. 92% effective. Same way contraceptive pill, in real world terms are, are 90-93% effective.

    I agree though, not all abortions prior to the 12 week mark will be medical. You can't put a 100% figure on these. But the vast majority, and therefore the standard go to, will be medical.


  • #5067
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    goz83 wrote: »
    Yes, I plan to. Maybe it would be better if my wife made the complaint. As I understand it, there are more than a few in that group who....how should I say this?...hate men.



    DIY Abortion sounds horrible. I'm doing some work on my pond. That's DIY. Using it to describe the termination of a pregnancy is very cold.

    There is nothing "sweet" about abortion, but if they want to inform women of the alternatives, then they really should be a bit more respectful and considerate. How about///

    Unwanted Pregnancy? There are alternatives to travel. Click here to find out more.

    Or is that too simple?

    Firstly, I know plenty of people in pro choice groups male and female. Pretty sure they'll take the events perfectly seriously and will hopefully make sure it doesn't happen again. The fact you're a man will not matter in slightest.

    You might find the term DIY abortion to be uncomfortable but that's the reality of what many women have to do.


  • #5068
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    PhoenixParker wrote: »
    I read up on adoption a while ago but many an expert by any means. Basically

    1) Irish women don't voluntarily place their children for adoption. It's vanishingly rare.
    2) parental rights are protected by the constitution so when babies & children are taken into care, unless their parents voluntarily sign away their rights, they remain in foster care permanently.
    3) a lot of countries that used to permit international adoption now don't or Ireland doesn't permit adoption with them due to the Hague convention.

    Aaaah that makes sense. It's something I had heard many times but could never figure it out.

    Another thing that annoys me about the "well just have the baby and put it up for adoption" argument is that the antichoice crowd act like this is some sort of miracle solution, every child adopted has a magical life and every family who adopt a child are wonderful. If only.
    And that's aside from the fact that if a woman wants an abortion it's because she no longer wants to be pregnant.


  • #5069
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Considering the fact Ireland has had a dubious history with adoption/fostering, it's not suprising it's rare.

    .....................
    I think giving a child up for adoption is a lot harder on both parties (parent and child) than an abortion. I do appreciate that this is just my opinion, and I generally don't bring it up, as I don't have any facts to support my theory.

    There are adoptees out of my family as well, which have since made contact with the family I'm delighted to say. The overwhelming feeling seems to be "why was I rejected, why was I given away", etc. Previously the rules on adoption were so dodgy there is no medical history / family history available.

    I also think sometimes abortion is kinder than adoption - the feeling of living with "I wasn't wanted" is a heavy burden for some.


  • #5070
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    erica74 wrote: »
    Aaaah that makes sense. It's something I had heard many times but could never figure it out.

    Another thing that annoys me about the "well just have the baby and put it up for adoption" argument is that the antichoice crowd act like this is some sort of miracle solution, every child adopted has a magical life and every family who adopt a child are wonderful. If only.
    And that's aside from the fact that if a woman wants an abortion it's because she no longer wants to be pregnant.

    If parents give a child up for adoption, they are stating they are not fit to be parents. This can put any existing children, or future children at risk.

    Also, how do you explain to EVERYONE AROUND YOU why you are growing larger, being pregnant, and then? Nothing. Especially if you already have kids.
    Fair enough, if you want to do that, please do. But expecting someone to do it? Isn't that just a little perverse?


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  • #5071
    Sudden Valley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,819 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I am pro choice but I would disagree strongly that abortion is kinder than adoption. I work with someone who is adopted and has loving adopted parents despite her natural parents not wanting her.


This discussion has been closed.
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