8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Calina wrote: »

I have a huge amount of respect for this post particularly as I know I was extremely sharp with you in earlier parts of this thread. I especially respect you for discussing this with your wife particularly in the context of how it might affect your family as a whole. In this context that is extremely valuable.

I think one point worth raising is that a lot of people do not and hopefully never will have to deal with the sharp end of when things go wrong. It is why I get upset that certain campaigners say of course X scenario will never happen such as question marks over certain cancer care paths for example, when they are already happening. It is more an article of faith than an understanding of reality.

I was very bull headed, ignorant and narrow minded in my initial beliefs.

The more I fought in here, while not being 100 percent no, the more I wanted my side to be right.

The more I read and the more people conversed with me, the more my mind opened. 2 days ago, while I started defending my stance, the more replies I got the more I said to my self "Ok think about it, what if I was in that position"

I replied very quick to most comments. I didn't really think anything through, yet I was dismissive and felt I was right

I gave it a lot of thought, Im very surprised myself at how Ive turned from leaning on one side to another.

Ultimately, I had to realistic ly put myself in the worst case scenario and think how I would react.

I started to do this a bit on thread here on wed

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I must admit, your making a good case.

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Maybe I was too rash to say this is what Id do or wouldn't do.

I probably wouldn't know what to do in the case if my daughter got pregnant at 15, or if she was raped at 22 and fell pregnant or if she had cancer and fell pregnant.

I probably wont know what Id do.

Id probably cry first.

Id listen to her. She what she thinks.

I would give her my opinion at the time.

My belief is that life is precious. It is. Ive known 3 people to have an abortion.

2 regretted it, 1 didn't. All unplanned

The one that didn't angered me, she had it at 23 because it wasn't planned. She choose her career over it. I never understood it, its a life and I think it shouldn't be ended just for convenience. Yes its a big change but it doesn't have to be a bad one.

The 2 that did regret it, sometimes talk of what might have been.

As I said before its not black and white.........but one thing is for sure, I am weighing up my vote each day.

Some (not all) of the yes side here make some good points, in a well mannered way and give me plenty to consider.

But I always fall back to the life that's being lost.

The more I gave it thought the more my stance of leaning no softened.

The discussion with my partner, who was of similar thinking to me, was a great help.

We both discussed it, using the worst case scenarios. We came to the same conclusion, Id like her to have the choice despite my beliefs.

I'm one of the people who was avoiding the debate on the 8th for the most part. I was really put off by the one sided, already decided committee and very early on, the result was clear. I wasn't decided on what I would vote in a referendum and wanted to keep an open mind, but I don't appreciate when there is a massive bias to what is supposed to be a balanced debate. I'm not here to discuss any of that though.

The evening before last, I went for a short walk with my wife. The little ones were in bed and my son (15) and daughter (11) were still up. Anyway, my wife got a phone call from my son while we were out and he told us that one of the repeal the 8th canvassers had called to the door. My daughter had answered (that's a different discussion) the door to the woman who not only gave her a leaflet, but explained to her why women should be allowed to have abortions and how men are oppressing women. WTF?:mad: What sort of dimwitted, numb-skull decides that it is ok to discuss abortions with someone elses 11 year old kid? As an aside, we are expecting another child next week and this conversation upset my little girl. Shameful behaviour.

My son read the leaflet and burned it, so I don't know who was canvassing and couldn't find the canvassers when we returned. My son quoted what the leaflet said. Just a taste of the tripe it contained; (and i paraphrase) "men have more right over their bodies than women even though they have less parts".

Any canvasser on any side should not be talking to minors about this and should certainly not be engaging the way the canvasser at my door did. We were disgusted by the actions of this person who cared about nothing but her own views. Totally unacceptable. Does anyone think this is ok?

I don't think a child should be exposed to this aggressive and sick style of canvassing. As parents, we discussed the issue in a more sensitive, balanced way a few weeks ago. The canvasser was anything but balanced from what we heard and was not fit to be speaking to the general public.

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I was very bull headed, ignorant and narrow minded in my initial beliefs.

The more I fought in here, while not being 100 percent no, the more I wanted my side to be right.

The more I read and the more people conversed with me, the more my mind opened. 2 days ago, while I started defending my stance, the more replies I got the more I said to my self "Ok think about it, what if I was in that position"

I replied very quick to most comments. I didn't really think anything through, yet I was dismissive and felt I was right

I gave it a lot of thought, Im very surprised myself at how Ive turned from leaning on one side to another.

Ultimately, I had to realistic ly put myself in the worst case scenario and think how I would react.

I started to do this a bit on thread here on wed





The more I gave it thought the more my stance of leaning no softened.

The discussion with my partner, who was of similar thinking to me, was a great help.

We both discussed it, using the worst case scenarios. We came to the same conclusion, Id like her to have the choice despite my beliefs.

I think you have described why the vast majority of pro-choice people are pro-choice. Some of us have worn those shoes and went through with the difficult decision. Some of us have seen friends and loved ones wear those shoes. Some of us have really thought long and hard about what we would do if a loved one or friend had to wear those shoes...and in good conscience we cannot NIMBY where those we care about need support.

That does not mean we are in 'favour' of abortion - it means we recognise that sometimes it is necessary.

Personally, I wish there was never a need for abortions but that utopia doesn't exist and the need is there - for a myriad of reasons. The 8th doesn't stop them. It demonises those who have them, makes an already fraught situation worse, imposes huge financial burdens on people in crises, 'allows' those with the wherewithal to travel but penalises those who can't by forcing them to continue in crises.

Then we have the 'unintended' consequences - the awful impact it has had on women's healthcare. It has turned medical crises into nightmare scenarios. It has turned trauma into policy. It has killed.

goz83 wrote:

Does anyone think this is ok?

No, absolutely not.



It really doesn't seem like an official canvasser though, or leaflet.

goz83 wrote: »

I'm one of the people who was avoiding the debate on the 8th for the most part. I was really put off by the one sided, already decided committee and very early on, the result was clear. I wasn't decided on what I would vote in a referendum and wanted to keep an open mind, but I don't appreciate when there is a massive bias to what is supposed to be a balanced debate. I'm not here to discuss any of that though.

The evening before last, I went for a short walk with my wife. The little ones were in bed and my son (15) and daughter (11) were still up. Anyway, my wife got a phone call from my son while we were out and he told us that one of the repeal the 8th canvassers had called to the door. My daughter had answered (that's a different discussion) the door to the woman who not only gave her a leaflet, but explained to her why women should be allowed to have abortions and how men are oppressing women. WTF?:mad: What sort of dimwitted, numb-skull decides that it is ok to discuss abortions with someone elses 11 year old kid? As an aside, we are expecting another child next week and this conversation upset my little girl. Shameful behaviour.

My son read the leaflet and burned it, so I don't know who was canvassing and couldn't find the canvassers when we returned. My son quoted what the leaflet said. Just a taste of the tripe it contained; (and i paraphrase) "men have more right over their bodies than women even though they have less parts".

Any canvasser on any side should not be talking to minors about this and should certainly not be engaging the way the canvasser at my door did. We were disgusted by the actions of this person who cared about nothing but her own views. Totally unacceptable. Does anyone think this is ok?

I don't think a child should be exposed to this aggressive and sick style of canvassing. As parents, we discussed the issue in a more sensitive, balanced way a few weeks ago. The canvasser was anything but balanced from what we heard and was not fit to be speaking to the general public.

It is absolutely wrong. On behalf of the Yes campaign I apologise.

You'd expect that crap from the NO side, it's a pity that some extremists are going to tarnish it for all the women in Ireland if they continue in that vein.

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I still believe the life inside a human is precious and has the has the right to life, but not at the expense of my partners life or my daughters life.

There is a lot to be said for putting yourself in someone elses shoes

When I was in my teens, I was ardently pro-life. I swallowed hook line and sinker the rhetoric and misinformation from SPUC. I'm pro-choice now but it would take an absolute disaster for me to contemplate a termination - I've been lucky, the few times that I did conceive, they were all very much wanted and yearned for pregnancies. I became more and more pro-choice from my twenties onwards by seeing that it's not a black/white decision. That pregnancy is unique for everyone and a one-size-fits-all constitution is not in the best interests of women. It needs to be a case-by-case basis and a matter between a woman and her medical team.

The 8th affects the entirety of not only maternity and ante-natal care but also unrelated areas of medicine if any treatment could potentially be detrimental to a pregnancy. It was a spectre hanging over my medical care during childbirth and EPU appointments for the miscarriages I had.

I believe that culturally we are very different from the UK. I believe that Irish women think long and hard and only choose abortion if it was absolutely necessary - maybe a catholic guilt throwback? I've known many couples who got bad news on their scans and the vast majority chose to continue their pregnancy even though the had the freedom and the means to travel. But I don't judge those who did travel. Those women who's health (mental or physical) may be in the balance. I know many women who did have an unexpected pregnancy in awful life circumstances and kept their baby, and I know a few that terminated and know that their reasons were solid ones for them.

I would like abortion in this country to be safe, legal and rare. The first and second is what this referendum is about. I'd like to see the resultant legislation bring in comprehensive mandatory sex education, affordable contraception that is more reliable than the pill or condoms - the coil, implants or other forms can be out of budget of a lot of low paid workers. I'd like doctors to stop fobbing off women who want to be sterilised. Maybe if we address this in the legislation properly then terminations here will have the same low rates as other parts of Europe that have a similar 12week limit.

goz83 wrote: »

Does anyone think this is ok?

Absolutely NOT okay. It's the same as the posters outside schools, absolutely not okay. If someone isn't old enough to vote, they shouldn't be part of the conversation.

I thought it was the norm for anyone calling to the door of house to ask if the homeowner/parent/adult is home.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's the thing about the Savita case. She wanted to continue the pregnancy until it was a risk to her health. It's just that she didn't want to die either. And she was refused a termination because of the 8th
(and this bears repeating. in the HIQA report it says that a termination was the correct treatment at one point and she was refused because of the 8th).

Defunkd wrote: »

The NHS categorise miscarriages differently too because not every woman who miscarries was even aware she was pregnant. I can't see the nhs doctors/nurses asking a woman if she was intending to keep the child, just so statistics could be more accurate.
Unless you can offer a better methodology to show the birth to abortion ratio in UK or call it "who wants baby: who doesn't want baby" the 1 in 5 is the most accurate.

The 24 week limit includes the mental health of the mother. The Govt., against psychiatric advice, included suicidal ideation as grounds for abortion. This is a wildcard imo and allows for abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. Only recently, we had the case of the dublin teen whose mother brought her to hospital saying the teen was threatening suicide unless she got an abortion. The doctor sectioned her (which is standard practice with genuine cases of suicidality) and a mini-sh*tstorm ensued. Case was "reviewed" and overturned. "Suicidal" girl was released and no more was heard from her.
So yeah, the new legislation will be impossible to circumvent��

where are you getting this figure of 24 weeks from?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Important to note that Patrick is unusual in coming on to tell us he's changed his mind, because that is difficult in a win/lose competitive sense.

But we have no measure for how many post or read here, change their minds and do not post to say so. It is certainly a greater number.

I can only speak for myself, Im still going to come here with my opinion and if things change for me or if something begins to pull me one way, its best to discuss it.

I still have my reservations about voting yes, but I believe that its for the best for now.