Irish support for remaining in EU reaches all time high

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Former Italian prime minister Giuliano Amato, who was vice president of the convention that Drew up the EU constitution 2004, described the process frankly:

"I don't think it is a good idea to replace this slow and effective method - which keeps national states free from anxiety while they are being stripped of power - with great institutional leaps....
Therfore I prefer to go a slowly, to crumble pieces of sovereignty up little by little, avoiding brusque transitions from national to federal power"

I can't actually find a source for that quote which isn't a conspiracy site...

Still no facts then. No wonder people think that these people can just be casually dismissed.

Odhinn wrote: »

It's unlikely.

Unlikely? Say what?

Let me explain it again for those hard of comprehension.

When the chips are down due to either economic crisis (banking crisis) or political crisis (migration debacle of summer 2015), these two countries, especially Germany will always follow their own interests first and foremost.

The issues of the banking crisis has been well documented, especially the comments from to Noonan.

What they’ve [the Troika] said to us really is that it’s on your head,” he said. “We don’t want you to default on these payments, it is your decision ultimately. But a bomb will go off and the bomb will go off in Dublin, not in Frankfurt.”

This threat, from Jean Claude Trichet to an elected Minster of the state, was an illegal one as the ECB had no remit or authority to make such a call or threat, but if your the top dog, you get to call the shots.

Ironically, the IMF, the more American-Anglo sphere of the Trokia was supporting Ireland in burning these bondholders, but the ECB and EU overruled. I suppose they would when those affected would be French, German and Scandinavian pension funds. Glorious self interest!

I get it. Its politics. Its dirty and vicious but the idea that the EU and its institutions are likes some cuddly benevolent teddy bear is a myth. When the next crisis hits, we will be asked to bend over and take what ever medicine given to us for the good of the Union.

Someone like you, a committed Republican and Sinn Fein voter should understand. After all Sinn Fien are the only party in Ireland who advocated a No vote for every single EU referendum, going back to the 1972 referendum confirming Irelands entry to the then EEC.

It seems some want to re-write history, as now we have Brexit and like all good republicans, whatever the Brits do, we must do the opposite. The Brits dont like the EU, so we must LOVE the EU.

You might be better talking about wars of the past and time warps to the brexiteers

Pot kettle.

markodaly wrote: »

Unlikely? Say what?

Let me explain it again for those hard of comprehension.

When the chips are down due to either economic crisis (banking crisis) or political crisis (migration debacle of summer 2015), these two countries, especially Germany will always follow their own interests first and foremost.

The issues of the banking crisis has been well documented, especially the comments from to Noonan.

This threat, from Jean Claude Trichet to an elected Minster of the state, was an illegal one as the ECB had no remit or authority to make such a call or threat, but if your the top dog, you get to call the shots.

Ironically, the IMF, the more American-Anglo sphere of the Trokia was supporting Ireland in burning these bondholders, but the ECB and EU overruled. I suppose they would when those affected would be French, German and Scandinavian pension funds. Glorious self interest!

I get it. Its politics. Its dirty and vicious but the idea that the EU and its institutions are likes some cuddly benevolent teddy bear is a myth. When the next crisis hits, we will be asked to bend over and take what ever medicine given to us for the good of the Union.

Someone like you, a committed Republican and Sinn Fein voter should understand. After all Sinn Fien are the only party in Ireland who advocated a No vote for every single EU referendum, going back to the 1972 referendum confirming Irelands entry to the then EEC.

It seems some want to re-write history, as now we have Brexit and like all good republicans, whatever the Brits do, we must do the opposite. The Brits dont like the EU, so we must LOVE the EU.




Pot kettle.

While the point is expressed in more extreme terms than I would use (as in a globalised capitalist economic framework, acting in your own interests first and foremost can ironically damage your interests), there is simply no denying that Germany, along with France and the UK, compose by far the greatest political and economic concentration of influence within the EU. But this would be the case whether the EU existed or not.

Were it not to exist, yes we would not have conferred certain national competences on a supranational entity like the EU, but our sovereignty would still be effectively dictated by the influence of the major world economic forces. In Ireland's particular case, our economic policy would find itself under the persuasion of the British economy, the American economy and the other large economies from which Ireland must strive to seek inward and outward investment. The alternative is to have a weird little outlier economy out on the edge of Europe with little ability to sustain employment through pure political self-sufficiency.

So regardless of what we do, Ireland may well punch above its weight but the fact remains that we are a lightweight. We, along with all the other smaller nations of the world, will always be under the influence of the world's power bases. What the EU gives us however is a framework which helps to balance the interests of Europe's stronger and weaker powers. We can have input, even crucial input, in matters at the European level which affect our interests -- whereas otherwise we would just have to always recalibrate whenever the greater powers shift course. Yes, the EU remains under strong influence of the aforementioned 'triumvirate' but, as can be seen in Brexit for example, our membership of the EU actually allows us to also influence the way in which the larger powers act.

This power to influence the movement of Europe is a level of sovereign power far beyond what the now archaic vision of 'pure' sovereignty would give us.

Deleted User wrote: »

More of the same sour grapes from the Brexiters. You're just pissed off that Britain is not leading the EU so you're taking your (ever-diminishing number of) toys and leaving the game. You'd be the biggest cheerleaders of the EU if you were running it - and the world and its mother knows this.

Only in the mindset of the Europhobes was the ECB engaging in "illegal intervention". And it's beyond risible how people like you who cheer on Brexit and its destructive consequences for Ireland's economy are now feigning concern for Ireland against the big, bad, evil EU.

Given that your notable contributions here have been to defend the British Empire, the British poppy, Brexit and a whole heap of regressive jingoistic, ignorant, Europhobic, anti-Irish nonsense, your very sudden lack of interest in fighting 'old wars of the past' and opposition to being in, of all things, a time warp is entertaining.

Since you like arguing with ghosts and caricatures, I will leave you these.

Your good self in 1972 was handing out flyers like below. Like a good republican you are.

Experience_day wrote: »

Mainly because we are acting as a great tool in the negotiations. Without the whole border issue the negotiations would have been far more underway. We are being used by the EU (and it suits us at the moment to be fair!).

It suits the French/Germans.

Were Brexit to severely impact us which is the predictions of some economists then I would be interested to see the same level of support.

The British mentality so far has been 'you need us more than we need you' while the EU mantra has been 'Ireland will have its say'. But for the purposes of argument, lets hypothesise that your cynical view of Ireland's position in the Brexit negotiations is accurate. The point would remain however that it's better to be significant enough to even be a tool, rather than a lone power standing up to our much stronger neighbour. That significance comes from our EU membership. Were we not in the EU, how much influence would be able to exert as regards the border? Boris, Davis and Gove etc having the upper hand over us in deciding how Irish people and goods will move across the border would be a highly uncomfortable vista.

If we weren't in the EU, we would probably have only slightly more clout in the border negotiations than Mick Collins did in 1921.

ArthurDayne wrote: »

The British mentality so far has been 'you need us more than we need you' while the EU mantra has been 'Ireland will have its say'. But for the purposes of argument, lets hypothesise that your cynical view of Ireland's position in the Brexit negotiations is accurate. The point would remain however that it's better to be significant enough to even be a tool, rather than a lone power standing up to our much stronger neighbour. That significance comes from our EU membership. Were we not in the EU, how much influence would be able to exert as regards the border? Boris, Davis and Gove etc having the upper hand over us in deciding how Irish people and goods will move across the border would be a highly uncomfortable vista.

If we weren't in the EU, we would probably have only slightly more clout in the border negotiations than Mick Collins did in 1921.

While this is true David Davis is no Winston Churchill.

The EU is keeping its poker face.

But the elephant hasn't left the room at all. The budget hole from UK leaving is not being reckoned with, and the fed project is going to go slowly beneath the waves.

The EU can limp along with French and German stagnation. It cannot however limp along through the 2020s with a major contributor leaving.

A lot of Irish seem to be slow to understand how the EU is restraining our potential. The euro currency was the worst thing to hit this nation since the 19th century famine, and that is saying something when you consider the hardships of the Economic war in the 30s and the obliteration of 1950s emigration. But we were told it was our fault: "we all partied".

EU cheerleaders here spin an awful lot of BS - how the EU is responsible for our FDI, allows us to export produce, and how it saved us from WWIII etc.

Those cheerleaders include the main churches, the trade unions, most of our political parties both main and fringe, all media organs both govt and private sector, all our third level institutions. I guess in such a context I can be happy that almost 1 in 10 of us still thinks independently and sees the naked emperor. I just hope for dear old Erin's sake as century 21 progresses that we are positioned somewhere near the exit when the roof of that big blue marquee tent collapses.