8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Grayson · 09-05-2018 05:55PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

But Ive explained my beliefs, read back.

No you haven't. You said that an embryo has a right to life. Then you said you wouldn't explain it. And you haven't.

patrickSTARR · 09-05-2018 05:55PM

Overheal wrote: »

I can respect that so far as it is well informed.

Im doing my best to be as informed as possible.

I came here for a discussion, to see why voters are yes or no.....

Some No folk are bonkers.

Some yes folk try belittle you for believing a life is a life at conception.

Im not sure how I would react in the worst of worst situations.

patrickSTARR · 09-05-2018 05:56PM

Grayson wrote: »

No you haven't. You said that an embryo has a right to life. Then you said you wouldn't explain it. And you haven't.

You call it an embryo, I call it an unborn baby.

I believe an unborn baby has the right to life.

January · 09-05-2018 05:56PM

RobertKK wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/rosa-abortion-pill-bus-2404333-Oct2015/
http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-pills-bus-3216154-Feb2017/

Just wondering as Rosa and some other repeal campaigners were eating then like sweets in the past, and without medical supervision.

There was a doctor on that bus.

09-05-2018 05:56PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know.

My instinct would be to try avoid an abortion.

But that's not my issue, it never was. I ve stated that in some circumstances like the one above, the woman should choose.

Its the abortion on demand because its inconvenient that I have a problem with.

But, let's assume your wife wants to take every opportunity to live. So she decides she needs treatment for her cancer.
So long as the 8th amendment is in place, she cannot do it. So, rather than her healthcare being looked after here, in her own country, by her own doctors, she will have to travel to England.
I guess you would go with her, a terrible journey to make, particularly because you both want that baby.
But you still believe that is right?

Overheal · 09-05-2018 05:57PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know.

My instinct would be to try avoid an abortion.

But that's not my issue, it never was. I ve stated that in some circumstances like the one above, the woman should choose.

Its the abortion on demand because its inconvenient that I have a problem with.

Then unfortunately the repeal is the best path forward. Then you can legislate to death what types of abortions are allowed and for what cause.

swampgas · 09-05-2018 05:57PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Because I believe aborting healthy foetuses is wrong. And if I vote to repeal and repeal wins, after that there is legalisation to allow the very thing I don't want to happen.

It's really not allowing it for most cases, it is just relocating it to where there can be proper medical supervision. You might not want it to happen, but are you convinced that forcing abortion underground is a better option? Even when it is compromising the healthcare of all women?

Also I don't understand this "Nobody is "pro-abortion" statement just in terms of constant comments here over and over that the foetus is pretty much nothing anyway and certainly not a life so what does it matter ???

I have never met a woman who found abortion trivial. Have you?

RobertKK · 09-05-2018 05:57PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

So if you knew they were dangerous, why did you ask?

Still haven't addressed my points about your mindless speculation by the way. Must be tough being wrong all the time, I suppose the sheer amount of disrespect and contempt you hold towards these women helps keep you warm though.

Then you had the cheek to post this earlier today.

robarmstrong wrote: »

Ah here, we all need to grow up a bit with the name-calling, it'll end up with mod actions e.g cards/threadbans/etc.

You can have a heated discussion without resorting to name calling, and I'd hate to see this thread locked or threadbans handed out because people are throwing names at eachother like kids.

If someone insults you, report it and ignore it, address their post as if they simply did not insult you.

Yes, some people have been absolute dicks, but there's no need to go down to their level and get yourself into trouble over it, if you're offended over something someone has said (this should go for either side) respond to the post as calmly as you can, regardless of how f*cked up the offending post may be.

Maybe read your own posts about people being dicks and maybe you wouldn't be so hostile. Plus don't think others are always wrong because you are always somehow always right...I haven't been disrespectful.

patrickSTARR · 09-05-2018 05:59PM

Overheal wrote: »

Then unfortunately the repeal is the best path forward. Then you can legislate to death what types of abortions are allowed and for what cause.

My fear is that with the flood gates opened with the 8th gone, the government wont legislate correctly.

Mrsmum · 09-05-2018 05:59PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I recognise my child as an individual. I respect her right to live her life the way she wants. If she needed help I'd give it but I wouldn't be a hypocrite and deny others that same help.

Not quite the same think though. Parents have been driven to getting drugs for their child or pay off their debts, doesn't mean the right thing for them to do is acquire drugs for other peoples children or pay off their debts.

_Dara_ · 09-05-2018 06:00PM

I put up a status update on Facebook today about my cancer treatment and pregnancy, how I would have been denied treatment if I was pregnant. My parents didn’t underact with the post at all. They are both very active on Facebook and nearly always interact with my posts. They really pushed me to take the treatment offered at the time, even when I thought it was hopeless. So for them not to respond or seemingly sympathise is pretty big. I thought they’d be voting no and now I’m sure. Nobody over the age of 40 has liked the status. It’s pretty depressing and is an ominous harbinger.

I’m sticking my neck out here and calling it. No to narrowly win. We have a long way to go in this country on this topic, I fear.

patrickSTARR · 09-05-2018 06:00PM

bubblypop wrote: »

But, let's assume your wife wants to take every opportunity to live. So she decides she needs treatment for her cancer.
So long as the 8th amendment is in place, she cannot do it. So, rather than her healthcare being looked after here, in her own country, by her own doctors, she will have to travel to England.
I guess you would go with her, a terrible journey to make, particularly because you both want that baby.
But you still believe that is right?

I must admit, your making a good case.

kylith · 09-05-2018 06:00PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Some yes folk try belittle you for believing a life is a life at conception.

No-one would belittle you for believing it; just for trying to force people who don't agree to abide by your beliefs.

pjohnson · 09-05-2018 06:00PM

That John McGurk just spent about 20mins blundering through a hilarious interview on The Last Word

Very upset he can't use foreign money its safe to say.

Overheal · 09-05-2018 06:01PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

My fear is that with the flood gates opened with the 8th gone, the government wont legislate correctly.

Unfortunately in my humble opinion they already legislated incorrectly with the 8th.

Even the United States hasn’t gone bonkers with abortion on demand. You don’t see the last minute abortions that some scaremonger about for instance, and late term aka third trimester abortions happen in fewer than 1% of cases and only for the big three: rape, incest, and loss of life. Even then, in most states like mine, you need the written opinion of two physicians and one psychiatrist that concur it’s the best option.

January · 09-05-2018 06:02PM

He's a bit shook tbh.

eviltwin · 09-05-2018 06:02PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Not quite the same think though. Parents have been driven to getting drugs for their child or pay off their debts, doesn't mean the right thing for them to do is acquire drugs for other peoples children or pay off their debts.

No one is asking you to give practical help to someone looking for an abortion. Just asking you give other daughters the same respect you give your own.

January · 09-05-2018 06:02PM

Courtney Cox has tweeted in favour of repeal

kylith · 09-05-2018 06:02PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

My fear is that with the flood gates opened with the 8th gone, the government wont legislate correctly.

Correctly in your opinion.

Even if they legislate for unrestricted to birth that doesn't mean people would do it.

Canada has no restriction and over 90% of terminations are still pre 12 weeks.

Sofiztikated · 09-05-2018 06:03PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Im doing my best to be as informed as possible.

I came here for a discussion, to see why voters are yes or no.....

Some No folk are bonkers.

Some yes folk try belittle you for believing a life is a life at conception.

Im not sure how I would react in the worst of worst situations.

I'm mad for a child. Can't wait to have one with my wife. Hasn't happened yet, we've only had 1 pregnancy, which resulted in a missed miscarriage, on the day of the 12 week scan, we found out the fetus hadn't developed past 5 weeks.

However, if it came to it, I'd prefer to have my wife healthy and happy (as happy as can be, given that she'd just terminated a pregnancy) than have my wife ill, and a child to look after. It's quite likely that if something like that did happen, she'd chose to continue the pregnancy, but do you believe that choice should be out of our hands?

pjohnson · 09-05-2018 06:04PM

January wrote: »

He's a bit shook tbh.

It was so embarassing. Is there really no one more eloquent to be a prominent voice on that side? Complete conspiracy theorist :pac:

robarmstrong · 09-05-2018 06:05PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Then you had the cheek to post this earlier today.

Maybe read your own posts about people being dicks and maybe you wouldn't be so hostile. Plus don't think others are always wrong because you are always somehow always right...I haven't been disrespectful.

Stop mindlessly posting up ridiculous speculation with no evidence like a dick would do then, Bob.

You haven't been disrespectful? Yeah, I'm sure the family of Miss P and the countless other women in this thread would definitely agree with you there.

I'm not always right, but I'm right a hell of a lot more than you are.

Grayson · 09-05-2018 06:06PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

You call it an embryo, I call it an unborn baby.

I believe an unborn baby has the right to life.

The technical term is an embryo. Then it becomes a foetus and then a baby. there's a ridiculous amount of differences between an embryo at a few days development and a baby. That's the reason no-one here is suggesting terminating babies.

Using the correct terms helps us determine what we are talking about.

The reason I believe a foetus that's farther along development has a right to life is because it's got a brain, that although isn't fully developed, has a lot of higher brain functions. The reason I think an embryo at 8 weeks doesn't is because there's no brain activity. The reason I believe in a 12 week limit is because I want a cutoff before those higher brain activities start to develop.

Does that make sense?
I certainly don't want to kill a baby. I don't want to kill something that has higher brain functions because that's an actual person.
and I'm not going to place restrictions up to 12 weeks because I don't want to decide who deserves" an abortion.

Mrsmum · 09-05-2018 06:07PM

"I have never met a woman who found abortion trivial. Have you?[/QUOTE]

Then why the constant comments on how it's not a life. And everytime someone says it is a life, Yes people are clamouring over themselves to say it isn't. Either it is or it isn't and if it isn't according to Yes people what does it matter.

bootpaws · 09-05-2018 06:07PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Maybe I was too rash to say this is what Id do or wouldn't do.

I probably wouldn't know what to do in the case if my daughter got pregnant at 15, or if she was raped at 22 and fell pregnant or if she had cancer and fell pregnant.

I probably wont know what Id do.

Id probably cry first.

Id listen to her. She what she thinks.

I would give her my opinion at the time.

My belief is that life is precious. It is. Ive known 3 people to have an abortion.

2 regretted it, 1 didn't. All unplanned

The one that didn't angered me, she had it at 23 because it wasn't planned. She choose her career over it. I never understood it, its a life and I think it shouldn't be ended just for convenience. Yes its a big change but it doesn't have to be a bad one.

The 2 that did regret it, sometimes talk of what might have been.

As I said before its not black and white.........but one thing is for sure, I am weighing up my vote each day.

Some (not all) of the yes side here make some good points, in a well mannered way and give me plenty to consider.

But I always fall back to the life that's being lost.

Perhaps, if these questions have truly made you think about the reality of the implications of a No vote, think a little further down that path.

A few pages back you claimed that healthy pregnancies are also terminated. I put it to you that there is no such thing as a perfectly healthy pregnancy, because pregnancy itself is a health risk.

Bearing in mind what I said in that post (if you read it) maybe pause for a moment and reexamine what you mean when you say a woman had an abortion because continuing with a pregnancy and birth would be "inconvenient" for her.

What do you think you mean by inconvenient?

For example, I consider missing a bus inconvenient. I consider catching all the red lights when I'm rushing somewhere to be inconvenient. I consider running out of kitty litter when the shops have all closed to be inconvenient.

I don't consider a woman saying that "I can't comfortably afford to spend 9 months of my life pregnant and then raise the resulting child right now" to be something that is simply a matter of convenience. There is a lot more to pregnancy and childbirth than "inconvenience."

I would call that a very mature and responsible choice that only she could have made for herself. You seem to speak of bringing a child into the world as if it's a pet. "Sure, it's inconvenient, but you can work with it!"

Not everyone can work with it. And a child is a HUGE thing for you to tell someone to just adjust to living with.

Igotadose · 09-05-2018 06:11PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

Saw MORE posters being put up today at the ucd flyover. What is actually the point? Do they think people haven't seen the stupid amount already up or something? What effect will more have?
Also what is the need to put 2/3/4 posters on the same pole or dozens within metres of each other? What an unbelievable waste of money the posters are.

So they can be paid for their uhhhhh labors. USA backers need their proof before paying their local auxiliaries

Overheal · 09-05-2018 06:11PM

If you want to split hairs about it being a life I can but I know that’s not good reasoning for people so out of respect for how this conversation has evolved I’m happy to let it be. I think the issue transcends whether the unborn is life or not, this is about those “Sophie’s choice” scenarios, and whether you want to allow choices to be made in those cases.

Grayson · 09-05-2018 06:11PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Then why the constant comments on how it's not a life. And everytime someone says it is a life, Yes people are clamouring over themselves to say it isn't. Either it is or it isn't and if it isn't according to Yes people what does it matter.

That's why I'm asking people why they believe what they believe. And i present my belief so they can find a flaw.

I want to be right about this and I believe I am. But it's a serious issue and if I'm wrong i want people to explain what's wrong with my thought process.

09-05-2018 06:11PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I must admit, your making a good case.

I truly believe the 8th amendment has to go. It means women are second class citizens when it comes to health care. I really don't think that I should be actually dying before I get treatment because I may be 7 or 8 weeks pregnant.
I know my family & friends would prefer for me to live, rather than the unknown unborn.

I understand that abortion is a very emotional subject for people, but to me, it's secondary to repealing the 8th.
Legislation can be changed, people can lobby etc, look at water charges! & I believe people should pay for their utilities..........

& just one point, on the heartbeat thing, I had an ectopic pregnancy, & I think it was around 7 weeks, there was a heartbeat. But that heartbeat would have killed me, so to me a heartbeat doesn't really mean much.

swampgas · 09-05-2018 06:14PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Then why the constant comments on how it's not a life. And everytime someone says it is a life, Yes people are clamouring over themselves to say it isn't. Either it is or it isn't and if it isn't according to Yes people what does it matter.

What do you mean by a "life"? Do you mean a baby?

You would agree that 30 seconds after conception the "new life" is not exactly a baby?

After a week it is still not a baby. Where do we draw the line? I think 12 weeks is a good compromise.

However the 8th (and the SC rulings since) say that a fertilised egg which has implanted is the same thing a pregnancy at 8 months. That's just crazy, and the implications of that have been felt for decades.

We need better laws, but we can only have them when the 8th is removed.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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