8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3729671/



Financial reasons = it affects lifestyle
Timing = it affects lifestyle.
Partner related issues = relationships are a part of one's lifestyle.

None of the main reasons are health. It is general lifestyle being affected.

Financial reasons = can barely afford rent as it is.
Timing = is college student and would have to leave education and take min. wage job that would barely cover rent.
Partner related issues = My partner beats me and I live in constant fear.

Triceratops Ballet

patrickSTARR wrote: »

But where is the compassion for the unborn child, you can bury your head in the sand and say its not a life, but it still deserves a right to life.

Why does it deserve a right to life, on what basis? you keep saying it's just your belief, but your belief has to be based on something what's it based on?

ohnonotgmail

patrickSTARR wrote: »

But where is the compassion for the unborn child, you can bury your head in the sand and say its not a life, but it still deserves a right to life.

I have more compassion for the living, thinking, human being in front of me than any potential life but to you they should be given equal consideration.

.......

This post has been deleted.

patrickSTARR

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Why does it deserve a right to life, on what basis? you keep saying it's just your belief, but your belief has to be based on something what's it based on?

When my partner was pregnant at 10 weeks , I heard the heart beat of my unborn child. She was alive to me.

I think life is too precious to kill it.

seamus

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Id show her compassion and pleading with her not to abort the baby just because shes young.

You think that, "Carry the child of the man that raped and violated you or I'll disown you" qualifies as "compassion"?

OK.

Overheal

patrickSTARR wrote: »

The baby deserves a chance to life

An inbred child born of rape?

Good luck to you.

swampgas

Mrsmum wrote: »

Divorce doesn't end any life.

Obviously.

The point I was making, which I'm sure you understood, is that we can vote to make things legal that are necessary, while at the same time wanting to minimise those things.

We imprison some people, not because we want to, but because we need to.
We allow divorce, we don't celebrate it.

Abortion is similar. Nobody is "pro-abortion". But sometimes it's the only option.

Why vote against repeal when you would (under duress) support it for your own daughter in a crisis?

Mrsmum

eviltwin wrote: »

Not asking you to go with every woman just to show them the same consideration you'd give your daughter. I understand it's different when it's your own loved one but every woman who ever had an abortion is someone's loved one.

I'm sure you have your own right and wrong issues and if your child did something against your beliefs you'd cope with that situation without then thinking wrong was right. You wouldn't suddenly think everyone should be out doing the wrong thing your son/daughter did because suddenly it was right.

Wrongway1985

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Listen, its far from an ideal situation, but why should the unborn child die?

She could seek abortion as why wouldn't it be her own right to choose to carry to term some rapist sickos child she could alternatively do so but her choice

eviltwin

Mrsmum wrote: »

I'm sure you have your own right and wrong issues and if your child did something against your beliefs you'd cope with that situation without then thinking wrong was right. You wouldn't suddenly think everyone should be out doing the wrong thing your son/daughter did because suddenly it was right.

I recognise my child as an individual. I respect her right to live her life the way she wants. If she needed help I'd give it but I wouldn't be a hypocrite and deny others that same help.

Moiratat

patrickSTARR wrote: »

But where is the compassion for the unborn child, you can bury your head in the sand and say its not a life, but it still deserves a right to life.

I would like you to consider what you would have done in my situation, long story short, abusive alcoholic mother never looked after me or my 4 sisters and 1 brother (3 sisters being younger than me and brother too), boyfriend was abusive too and raped me, got pregnant, boyfriend attempted to kill me and was constantly threatening to kill me if I kept the child, abusive mother wouldve kicked me out and would've left my young siblings with her being abused and depressed, I would've loved to have kept my baby but I couldn't, but according to you I killed him/her.

patrickSTARR

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Maybe I was too rash to say this is what Id do or wouldn't do.

I probably wouldn't know what to do in the case if my daughter got pregnant at 15, or if she was raped at 22 and fell pregnant or if she had cancer and fell pregnant.

I probably wont know what Id do.

Id probably cry first.

Id listen to her. She what she thinks.

I would give her my opinion at the time.

My belief is that life is precious. It is. Ive known 3 people to have an abortion.

2 regretted it, 1 didn't. All unplanned

The one that didn't angered me, she had it at 23 because it wasn't planned. She choose her career over it. I never understood it, its a life and I think it shouldn't be ended just for convenience. Yes its a big change but it doesn't have to be a bad one.

The 2 that did regret it, sometimes talk of what might have been.

As I said before its not black and white.........but one thing is for sure, I am weighing up my vote each day.

Some (not all) of the yes side here make some good points, in a well mannered way and give me plenty to consider.

But I always fall back to the life that's being lost.

Grayson

patrickSTARR wrote: »

But where is the compassion for the unborn child, you can bury your head in the sand and say its not a life, but it still deserves a right to life.

Prove it.

Seriously, if you can prove that statement I'll switch sides.

I believe that an embryo isn't a human being. Sure it has human DNA but there's lots of stuff that has human DNA that wouldn't qualify as a human being.

Sure, it has some human components, but so do many other things.

When i ask myself what makes a human being I think of when we stop being a person. When a person is declared brain dead, that's when we switch off the machines. we know we aren't killing someone because there's no-one there. What we are doing is stopping a non sentient body from respiring.

An embryo with no brain function is similar in my opinion. It doesn't matter if there's a heart, lungs or toes. What matters is the brain. That's what makes us people.

So, why does something that has no brain activity or activity similar to an insect have a right to life?
I know some prolifers will say that I'm disgusting comparing an embryo to an insect but there is a comparable amount of activity in the brain around week 12-14.

But the question remains, what is the ethical/logical argument as to why such a right exists?

Calina

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

If my mother did that to me, I'd never forgive her. You'd be better off leaving them go with someone who's not going to try and emotionally blackmail them the whole way there.

Equally if my daughter aborted a baby just because its unplanned and not a good time in their lives, Id never forgive them either.

Jesus you really are not prolife. Just an unlooving authoritarian. You would never forgive your own daughter.

Your own daughter deserves a loving father. She does not deserve you because you are not man enough to be her father.

swampgas

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Maybe I was too rash to say this is what Id do or wouldn't do.

I probably wouldn't know what to do in the case if my daughter got pregnant at 15, or if she was raped at 22 and fell pregnant or if she had cancer and fell pregnant.

I probably wont know what Id do.

Id probably cry first.

Id listen to her. She what she thinks.

I would give her my opinion at the time.

My belief is that life is precious. It is. Ive known 3 people to have an abortion.

2 regretted it, 1 didn't. All unplanned

The one that didn't angered me, she had it at 23 because it wasn't planned. She choose her career over it. I never understood it, its a life and I think it shouldn't be ended just for convenience. Yes its a big change but it doesn't have to be a bad one.

The 2 that did regret it, sometimes talk of what might have been.

As I said before its not black and white.........but one thing is for sure, I am weighing up my vote each day.

Some (not all) of the yes side here make some good points, in a well mannered way and give me plenty to consider.

But I always fall back to the life that's being lost.

Life can be brutal.

In my own experience, it's very hard to look into the eyes of a desperate woman who wants an abortion and want to anything else except help her.

patrickSTARR

Grayson wrote: »

Prove it.

Seriously, if you can prove that statement I'll switch sides.

I believe that an embryo isn't a human being. Sure it has human DNA but there's lots of stuff that has human DNA that wouldn't qualify as a human being.

Sure, it has some human components, but so do many other things.

When i ask myself what makes a human being I think of when we stop being a person. When a person is declared brain dead, that's when we switch off the machines. we know we aren't killing someone because there's no-one there. What we are doing is stopping a non sentient body from respiring.

An embryo with no brain function is similar in my opinion. It doesn't matter if there's a heart, lungs or toes. What matters is the brain. That's what makes us people.

So, why does something that has no brain activity or activity similar to an insect have a right to life?
I know some prolifers will say that I'm disgusting comparing an embryo to an insect but there is a comparable amount of activity in the brain around week 12-14.

But the question remains, what is the ethical/logical argument as to why such a right exists?

Im not here to prove anything, my belief is my belief.

It does matter to me that it has a heart.

Overheal

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Maybe I was too rash to say this is what Id do or wouldn't do.

I probably wouldn't know what to do in the case if my daughter got pregnant at 15, or if she was raped at 22 and fell pregnant or if she had cancer and fell pregnant.

I probably wont know what Id do.

Id probably cry first.

Id listen to her. She what she thinks.

I would give her my opinion at the time.

My belief is that life is precious. It is. Ive known 3 people to have an abortion.

2 regretted it, 1 didn't. All unplanned

The one that didn't angered me, she had it at 23 because it wasn't planned. She choose her career over it. I never understood it, its a life and I think it shouldn't be ended just for convenience. Yes its a big change but it doesn't have to be a bad one.

The 2 that did regret it, sometimes talk of what might have been.

As I said before its not black and white.........but one thing is for sure, I am weighing up my vote each day.

Some (not all) of the yes side here make some good points, in a well mannered way and give me plenty to consider.

But I always fall back to the life that's being lost.

No matter which side you choose, life is being lost. If a pregnancy test comes back positive for someone who needs chemo treatment, that’s going to end up only one way. Rationalize it however you want, but do not in anyway pretend that a Yes vote is going to end up ending life and a No vote is not. You’re just choosing the 1000 embryos over the toddler, in the burning building analogy. That’s all.

Overheal

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Im not here to prove anything, my belief is my belief.

It does matter to me that it has a heart.

Yes Iowa passed a “heartbeat bill” last week. It’s likely to get shut down by federal courts however, because it stops abortions after 6 weeks, which is usually the stage that women discover they are pregnant at all, hence it removes their fundamental right to make a choice which Roe v Wade already established is a choice they have the protection to make under the US constitution.

patrickSTARR

patrickSTARR wrote: »

When my partner was pregnant at 10 weeks , I heard the heart beat of my unborn child. She was alive to me.

I think life is too precious to kill it.

And what if, at the same time the doctor saw a tumour?
What if your wife was told she couldn't avail of treatment because of the pregnancy. What if by waiting for months her cancer would surely get worse, possibly incurable.
Do you value your wife's life in this case, or do you value the unknown, unborn more?

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

can you clarify what position you are attempting to twist to suit your agenda?

January wrote: »

The pills aren't dangerous, they're on the World Health Organisations list of safe medicines. What is dangerous is taking them without medical supervision and doctor having your full medical history.

pitifulgod wrote: »

Potentially any medication can be deadly without any medical supervision, in this instance where women won't even be willing to go to a doctor if there are side effects. Eg my doctor has advised me to never take the likes of nurofen plus as it could have pretty serious side effects for me.

http://www.thejournal.ie/rosa-abortion-pill-bus-2404333-Oct2015/
http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-pills-bus-3216154-Feb2017/

Just wondering as Rosa and some other repeal campaigners were eating then like sweets in the past, and without medical supervision.

patrickSTARR

Overheal wrote: »

No matter which side you choose, life is being lost. If a pregnancy test comes back positive for someone who needs chemo treatment, that’s going to end up only one way. Rationalize it however you want, but do not in anyway pretend that a Yes vote is going to end up ending life and a No vote is not. QUOTE]

I agree. Its a brutal decision and its not an easy one for me.

I 100 percent am not taking it lightly

Grayson

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Im not here to prove anything, my belief is my belief.

It does matter to me that it has a heart.

If you're not willing to debate or explain your beliefs then you really shouldn't be in a thread discussing this topic. You've stated your belief and you can leave now.

And if your defense is that it's your belief, and you're entitled to it, then you're right. But I'm allowed ask why you think it's the case. And I'm allowed say that you have no basis for your belief.

Finally, if you believe what you believe but have no argument as to why you believe it then your belief is nonsense. I take stuff like this seriously. people lives and wellbeing are on the line. I've put thought into this and arrived at a conclusion. If you've gotten a conclusion without any thought as to why, you should abstain. Because your belief isn't informed.

Sofiztikated

patrickSTARR wrote: »

When my partner was pregnant at 10 weeks , I heard the heart beat of my unborn child. She was alive to me.

I think life is too precious to kill it.

And noone is saying you have to give up that belief.

However, there are many reasons why that is not applicable to everyone, and do you think it's fair to enforce that belief on everyone?

Overheal

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Overheal wrote: »

No matter which side you choose, life is being lost. If a pregnancy test comes back positive for someone who needs chemo treatment, that’s going to end up only one way. Rationalize it however you want, but do not in anyway pretend that a Yes vote is going to end up ending life and a No vote is not.

I agree. Its a brutal decision and its not an easy one for me.

I 100 percent am not taking it lightly

I can respect that so far as it is well informed.

Mrsmum

swampgas wrote: »

Obviously.

The point I was making, which I'm sure you understood, is that we can vote to make things legal that are necessary, while at the same time wanting to minimise those things.

We imprison some people, not because we want to, but because we need to.
We allow divorce, we don't celebrate it.

Abortion is similar. Nobody is "pro-abortion". But sometimes it's the only option.

Why vote against repeal when you would (under duress) support it for your own daughter in a crisis?

Because I believe aborting healthy foetuses is wrong. And if I vote to repeal and repeal wins, after that there is legalisation to allow the very thing I don't want to happen.
Also I don't understand this "Nobody is "pro-abortion" statement just in terms of constant comments here over and over that the foetus is pretty much nothing anyway and certainly not a life so what does it matter ???

patrickSTARR

bubblypop wrote: »

And what if, at the same time the doctor saw a tumour?
What if your wife was told she couldn't avail of treatment because of the pregnancy. What if by waiting for months her cancer would surely get worse, possibly incurable.
Do you value your wife's life in this case, or do you value the unknown, unborn more?

Honestly, I don't know.

My instinct would be to try avoid an abortion.

But that's not my issue, it never was. I ve stated that in some circumstances like the one above, the woman should choose.

Its the abortion on demand because its inconvenient that I have a problem with.

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/rosa-abortion-pill-bus-2404333-Oct2015/
http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-pills-bus-3216154-Feb2017/

Just wondering as Rosa and some other repeal campaigners were eating then like sweets in the past, and without medical supervision.

So if you knew they were dangerous, why did you ask?

Still haven't addressed my points about your mindless speculation by the way. Must be tough being wrong all the time, I suppose the sheer amount of disrespect and contempt you hold towards these women helps keep you warm though.

patrickSTARR

Grayson wrote: »

If you're not willing to debate or explain your beliefs then you really shouldn't be in a thread discussing this topic. You've stated your belief and you can leave now.

And if your defense is that it's your belief, and you're entitled to it, then you're right. But I'm allowed ask why you think it's the case. And I'm allowed say that you have no basis for your belief.

Finally, if you believe what you believe but have no argument as to why you believe it then your belief is nonsense. I take stuff like this seriously. people lives and wellbeing are on the line. I've put thought into this and arrived at a conclusion. If you've gotten a conclusion without any thought as to why, you should abstain. Because your belief isn't informed.

But Ive explained my beliefs, read back.

Overheal

Mrsmum wrote: »

Because I believe aborting healthy foetuses is wrong. And if I vote to repeal and repeal wins, after that there is legalisation to allow the very thing I don't want to happen.
Also I don't understand this "Nobody is "pro-abortion" statement just in terms of constant comments here over and over that the foetus is pretty much nothing anyway and certainly not a life so what does it matter ???

That’s understandable but what about the unhealthy ones? If a physician identifies a terminal disfigurement in the fetus, eg. not developing lungs or some other form of miscarriage. What then? Still carry it to term at the risk of sepsis or worse for the woman?