8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Overheal · 08-05-2018 05:33PM

RobertKK wrote: »

They have high maternal death in India.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/health/india-s-maternal-mortality-rate-on-a-decline/story-ZcnBG0kidtvPEkRnKNI0II.html

So? As was already argued she was in Ireland and subject to Ireland’s laws and its healthcare. Don’t coward out of that.

M.Cribben · 08-05-2018 05:34PM

January wrote: »

No, and it cannot be until the 8th is repealed as we cannot debate the proposed legislation in the Dail until that happens.

I can see why people are concerned regarding that point then.

There's a general distrust of politicians and the main political parties in Ireland that seems to be ignored when it comes to repeal the 8th.

They have consistently screwed up everything they touch since the foundation of the State. (most recently the economy/banks, justice and the legal system, housing, transport, healthcare) and now the public are expected to forget all that and trust Fianna Fail/Fine Gael to properly legislate something as complex as abortion?

Triceratops Ballet · 08-05-2018 05:34PM

looksee wrote: »

Some of the arguments in this thread are totally disgusting and show total lack of respect, compassion or understanding.

Like most pro-lifers I do not want to see abortion become the go-to option for lifestyle management or family planning, but I do not believe this will be the outcome of this vote. Mostly I do not see it is my or anyone else's business to dictate what medical care a woman should or should not have.

The subject of abortion should not be in the constitution at all, it is far too complex to deal with by the generalisations that can be dealt with there.

My understanding of the situation, and it is complicated, is that if the 8th is repealed we will be back to the situation that existed previously, where abortion was just banned totally, and could result in criminal charges. So why are the no side so determined to keep the 8th? Any change to law relating to abortion will not happen until after the repeal. I am open to correction on this.

no correction necessary, that's correct.
The legislation is only a proposal and can be defeated in the Dail and as someone pointed out with most of FF voting no and the fact that we have a minority government that could well happen.
I'm totally pro choice, but separate to that I'm pro repeal even if that means abortion is still largely unavailable here

Triceratops Ballet · 08-05-2018 05:36PM

M.Cribben wrote: »

I can see why people are concerned regarding that point then.

There's a general distrust of politicians and the main political parties in Ireland that seems to be ignored when it comes to repeal the 8th.

They have consistently screwed up everything they touch since the foundation of the State. (most recently the economy/banks, justice and the legal system, housing, transport, healthcare) and now the public are expected to forget all that and trust Fianna Fail/Fine Gael to properly legislate something as complex as abortion?

When the prolifers wanted it they were trusted to roll out the PR machine and put the bloody 8th amendment into the constitution funny how now when it's something that the pro life side don't want the government can't be trusted

spookwoman · 08-05-2018 05:36PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Don't tell me to cop on, if you can't read reports that is not my fault.

Look at the reports.

From HIQA report in her death.
https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/hiqa-savita-halappanavar-report.pdf

14.11 Concluding remarks
The findings of this investigation reflect a failure in the provision of the most basic
elements of patient care to Savita Halappanavar and also the failure to recognise
and act upon signs of her clinical deterioration in a timely and appropriate manner.
The missed opportunities to intervene in her care that have been identified in this investigation, if acted upon, may have resulted in a different outcome for Savita Halappanavar.

The investigation found concerning deficits in how learning, particularly in the areas
of maternity services and clinically deteriorating patients, has been adopted and
implemented following previous investigations and inquiries. These deficits include
an inability to apply system–wide learning to minimise clinical risk for all patients
from adverse findings in one part of the system for the benefit of all service
users. At the heart of this ability to learn is the culture and leadership within an
organisation that actively seeks out ways to continually improve the quality and
safety of services for their population in an open and transparent way with clear
accountability and responsibility arrangements to do so. The achievement of this
must be an aim for all healthcare providers.

This investigation clearly shows that
where responsibility for implementation of learning is not clearly owned, then
learning nationally does not happen, as demonstrated in the findings relating
to the HSE enquiry into the death Tania McCabe and her son Zach in 2007, the
circumstances of which have a disturbing resemblance to the case of Savita
Halappanavar.

Go and tell HIQA they are not being respectful...

I'm sorry for being graphic but that's what happened.

The other night Mcguiness said her uterus should have been evacuated. That means she should have had an abortion.
She got sepsis, why? Because she had a miscarriage. 22nd her waters broke and they told her the baby would not survive.
Any one with a brain cell know you do not leave a foreign body in someone for fear of infection. Anyone with half a brain cell knows you do not leave a dying or dead foreign body in someone because of infection.
They left a dying and dead foreign body in her for 2 days that's why she got sepsis. If she had an abortion when she asked she more than lively would not have got sepsis.

gctest50 · 08-05-2018 05:41PM

King of Kings wrote: »

i didnt.

Why did you omit it then ?

Just taking pieces that suit you doesn't work when we can all see the source or you get asked for the source

M.Cribben · 08-05-2018 05:41PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

When the prolifers wanted it they were trusted to roll out the PR machine and put the bloody 8th amendment into the constitution funny how now when it's something that the pro life side don't want the government can't be trusted

It's a little different.
The text of the 8th amendment was put to public vote in 1983 and passed.
The text of the proposed legislation won't be put to public vote, ever. It's in the hands of our honest and trustworthy FF/FG ministers, if the 8th is repealed.
I'd like to have a say on the text of the proposed legislation, but unfortunately that's not how the law works in Ireland.

yourdeadwright · 08-05-2018 05:41PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so they should be punished for being pregnant to make sure they dont do it again? and you complain about others talking ****e.

Who said punished ?
I said they should learn repsonsiblity , Sorry i forgot your one of those who doesnt read but think ooh god this person goes agins twhat i think attack attck ,
Im all for YES all im saying is people also need to be respinisble for themselfs

bruschi · 08-05-2018 05:41PM

King of Kings wrote: »

saying its a valid form of treatment ia like saying ban cars to reduce road deaths...an action that will get the end result but an extreme one.

you are 100% correct on this.

If someone was killed in a road traffic accident, if cars were banned then that wouldnt have killed them.

So it is also true, as per your analogy, if abortions were legalised, then Savita wouldnt have died.

So if we have a referendum on banning cars, it is likely to save multiple lives in a year if passed

until that referendum comes about, we can only vote on the other part of your analogy, the abortion bit, so it can be legalised and therefore wont be as extreme a case any more.

Sofiztikated · 08-05-2018 05:43PM

M.Cribben wrote: »

I can see why people are concerned regarding that point then.

There's a general distrust of politicians and the main political parties in Ireland that seems to be ignored when it comes to repeal the 8th.

They have consistently screwed up everything they touch since the foundation of the State. (most recently the economy/banks, justice and the legal system, housing, transport, healthcare) and now the public are expected to forget all that and trust Fianna Fail/Fine Gael to properly legislate something as complex as abortion?

I'm not a huge fan of politicians, but its a while lot easier to fix a ****up of a legislation than it is to fix a ****up of a constitutional amendment.

Where I can foresee a problem with the legislation is the interference of gob****e politician that play to their constituency, rather than the common good. It'll be stupid provisions that they want that'll cause harm, but they'll be able to stick "Saving Babies" on their CV just below "Fixing Potholes" and "Sticking it to those big smoke dwellers"

yourdeadwright · 08-05-2018 05:44PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

the couple in this specific example were having children before contraception was legal in the country. They could not use contraception, they had no access to abortion, it was legal for a husband to rape his wife.

Yes and there was millions of other people in oreland at that time that only had the number of children they wanted , Take responsibilty for yourself and dont blame the country ,
Again im all for YES

SusieBlue · 08-05-2018 05:49PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Yes and there was millions of other people in oreland at that time that only had the number of children they wanted , Take responsibilty for yourself and dont blame the country ,
Again im all for YES

Just to be clear, you are saying that in the 1940’s in Ireland, at a time when the church ruled the roost (go forth and multiply), at a time when contraception was illegal, marital rape was allowed and women had little to no rights, public respect or standing, that ‘many people’ had only the number of children then wanted.

Are you serious???????

How could she take responsibility? And don’t say ‘don’t have sex’. Marital rape was legal so that advice is useless. What’s your advice to her?

pitifulgod · 08-05-2018 05:49PM

M.Cribben wrote: »

I can see why people are concerned regarding that point then.

There's a general distrust of politicians and the main political parties in Ireland that seems to be ignored when it comes to repeal the 8th.

They have consistently screwed up everything they touch since the foundation of the State. (most recently the economy/banks, justice and the legal system, housing, transport, healthcare) and now the public are expected to forget all that and trust Fianna Fail/Fine Gael to properly legislate something as complex as abortion?

You want to enshrine something as complex as abortion in the constitution which has told untold damage over the decades. So you've given a great reason to be able to legislate.

January · 08-05-2018 05:49PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Yes and there was millions of other people in oreland at that time that only had the number of children they wanted , Take responsibilty for yourself and dont blame the country ,
Again im all for YES

So you're basically saying if you don't want to have a baby, don't have sex? Do I have that right?

You're not for yes at all, so stop lying.

volchitsa · 08-05-2018 05:51PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Yes and there was millions of other people in oreland at that time that only had the number of children they wanted , Take responsibilty for yourself and dont blame the country ,
Again im all for YES

Why on earth do you think couples even discussed how many children they wanted, never mind managed to keep to that?

Anyone who worked in a maternity in the 70s and 80s has all sort of "funny" stories about women giving birth literally wishing their husbands dead or in hell for making them pregnant yet again. Out loud, often screaming.

Not all of the stories were all that funny really.

Igotadose · 08-05-2018 05:52PM

Drove around a bit in Tralee today. Fair number of lie, err, No posters. Likewise Yes posters, looks like the Yes posters came from 2 different groups. All good.

Sofiztikated · 08-05-2018 05:53PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Yes and there was millions of other people in oreland at that time that only had the number of children they wanted , Take responsibilty for yourself and dont blame the country ,
Again im all for YES

You said originally you are abstaining, and have since said many times that you are OK with Repealing.

But on every post you have reamed off the standard Prolife stick.

I think you need to be honest with yourself.

ArmaniJeanss · 08-05-2018 05:53PM

King of Kings wrote: »

i hope the repeal fails but if i passes i hope the 12 weeks isnt passed in the dail.

had we been offered a better choice ... for reasons medical intervention or urgency. I'd would have voted for change
but not based on the current proposals.

Then Vote Repeal and put pressure on your TD's to come up with legislation you could accept. And if they fail follow it up at the next election and look for the same again.

But firstly vote repeal because otherwise the 8th is going to stay as is for quite plausibly another generation or two, and from the bit in bold above you already seem to accept that the 8th is not a good thing to have in the constitution.

Triceratops Ballet · 08-05-2018 05:53PM

M.Cribben wrote: »

It's a little different.
The text of the 8th amendment was put to public vote in 1983 and passed.
The text of the proposed legislation won't be put to public vote, ever. It's in the hands of our honest and trustworthy FF/FG ministers, if the 8th is repealed.
I'd like to have a say on the text of the proposed legislation, but unfortunately that's not how the law works in Ireland.

Sure if they vote for something you don't like can't you go down to their clinic and object and then at the next election give their seat to someone else?

It's no real reason not to repeal the 8th

joe40 · 08-05-2018 05:54PM

Ally Dick wrote: »

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

oh Robert! she asked for an abortion and the response was "this is a Catholic country"

Not a very nice response, but she was an Indian immigrant living in Ireland...and subject to the laws of Ireland

First and foremost she was a pregnant woman going through a miscarriage, subject to irish laws
Country of origin is totally irrelevant

gctest50 · 08-05-2018 06:00PM

joe40 wrote: »

First and foremost she was a pregnant woman going through a miscarriage, subject to irish laws
Country of origin is totally irrelevant

and

Anybody, any junior doctor, would have said this is a sepsis condition, we must terminate.

that is one of the main things if you suffered because of medical negligence

- basically would any doctor (of similar skill/qualification/experience do the same thing)

Zubeneschamali · 08-05-2018 06:05PM

RobertKK wrote: »

There will always be penalties for illegal abortions, they have penalties for illegal abortions where they are legal, in England it is up to life in prison.

And yet you don't want to see women go to jail for illegal abortions - you are not making much sense here.

Pedro K · 08-05-2018 06:06PM

King of Kings wrote: »

you are misintrepreting that.

sure an abortion would have treated her sepsis but do would proper medical care.

saying an abortion was the only manner of treatment is not true.

saying its a valid form of treatment ia like saying ban cars to reduce road deaths...an action that will get the end result but an extreme one.

Did you read the report?

It also states that uncertainty about the law, whether correct or not, hindered the doctors ability to provide care, and the report recommended that the Oireachtas make any legislative changes "including ... constitutional change," necessary.

So the 8th affected the doctors ability to care for a dying woman.

Page 76 of the report wrote:

The investigation team considers that the situation was complicated by the difficulty
associated with the application of the law in Ireland relating to the termination of a
pregnancy. The investigation team is satisfied that concern about the law, whether clear or
not, impacted on the exercise of clinical professional judgement.

Page 74 wrote:

We recommend that the clinical professional
community, health and social care regulators, and the Oireachtas consider the law including
any necessary constitutional change and related administrative, legal and clinical guidelines
in relation to the management of inevitable miscarriage in the early second trimester of a
pregnancy including with prolonged rupture of membranes and where the risk to the mother
increases with time from the time that membranes were ruptured including the risk of
infection.

So you can shout medical mismanagement all you want. It was because of the 8th amendment that the doctors didn't know what they could or couldn't do.

Zubeneschamali · 08-05-2018 06:17PM

M.Cribben wrote: »

The text of the 8th amendment was put to public vote in 1983 and passed. The text of the proposed legislation won't be put to public vote, ever.

The text of the 8th was passed in 1983 and has been a giant problem ever since. If it had simply been a law, we would have changed it several times since then.

Many, many posters here have said they would like to vote Yes for rape or FFA, but can't because of abortion on demand - but that is the wrong way around. If they vote Yes and remove the 8th we can legislate for FFA and rape. For aboriton on demand. For whatever we want. Lobby your TD. Vote FF. Whatever you want.

While the 8th is in place, we cannot legislate at all.

blanch152 · 08-05-2018 06:18PM

M.Cribben wrote: »

I can see why people are concerned regarding that point then.

There's a general distrust of politicians and the main political parties in Ireland that seems to be ignored when it comes to repeal the 8th.

They have consistently screwed up everything they touch since the foundation of the State. (most recently the economy/banks, justice and the legal system, housing, transport, healthcare) and now the public are expected to forget all that and trust Fianna Fail/Fine Gael to properly legislate something as complex as abortion?

One of their biggest screw-ups was to come together and convince the Irish people to put the 8th Amendment into the Constitution. At least they are trying to correct that mistake.

Mint Sauce · 08-05-2018 06:38PM

To many pages to read back on, but did any catch this fellas comments earlier?

Sex slavery will be normalised if 8th Amendment is repealed, claims Leitrim councillor

Basically saying if abortion is readily available, girls will be expected to have sex, and sex slavery will be normalised. Also brings in Hitler, and the Hipocratic Oath.

Shoke my head is disbelief listening to it.

pjohnson · 08-05-2018 06:39PM

Mint Sauce wrote: »

To many pages to read back on, but did any catch this fellas comments earlier?

Sex slavery will be normalised if 8th Amendment is repealed, claims Leitrim councillor

Basically saying if abortion is readily available, girls will be expected to have sex, and sex slavery will be normalised. Also brings in Hitler, and the Hipocratic Oath.

Shoke my head is disbelief listening to it.

Thank god we know Leitrim isn't a real place.

gctest50 · 08-05-2018 06:42PM

Mint Sauce wrote: »

To many pages to read back on, but did any catch this fellas comments earlier?

Sex slavery will be normalised if 8th Amendment is repealed, claims Leitrim councillor

Basically saying if abortion is readily available, girls will be expected to have sex, and sex slavery will be normalised. Also brings in Hitler, and the Hipocratic Oath.

Shoke my head is disbelief listening to it.

Des mcGuckian ? he should be taken out and tarred and feathered

http://www.thejournal.ie/des-guckian-n-word-council-meeting-leitrim-3735185-Dec2017/

spookwoman · 08-05-2018 06:45PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Thank god we know Leitrim isn't a real place.

I think they still burn witches there

Sofiztikated · 08-05-2018 06:54PM

Mint Sauce wrote: »

To many pages to read back on, but did any catch this fellas comments earlier?

Sex slavery will be normalised if 8th Amendment is repealed, claims Leitrim councillor

Basically saying if abortion is readily available, girls will be expected to have sex, and sex slavery will be normalised. Also brings in Hitler, and the Hipocratic Oath.

Shoke my head is disbelief listening to it.

Nothing much worse than what some on here would have you believe.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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