Inter County player Turnover at Unprecedented Levels

megadodge · 07-05-2018 08:50PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

Donegal did not leave semi final in 1990 behind . Meath won by 8 points in second gear. How did Donegal leave a semi final behind them when they lost by 8 points. Donegal couldnt contain the Meath full forwars line of O Rourke Stafford and Flynn , as Flynn ran riot in the second half scoring 2 -3. Meath team were a better team then that Donegal team. That Meath team played in 5 All Ireland finals ( including a replay ) in 5 years. That Donegal team played in 1 All Ireland final. That Meath team had some great defenders eg O Connell voted on the team of the Millenium. O Malley Harnan and the best full back of the 80 Lyons..It had the best midfield partnership of its generation in Hayes and McEntee. And the best full forward line of the last 35 years and the second best full forward line in the game ever ( Only Egan Liston and Sheedy were better) The full forward line of O Rourke Stafford Flynn.

In 1990 Meath were still the best team in the land . Cork were lucky Harnan was injured for the final. Becuase no way would Culloty or Fahy hit those points from half back line with Harnan there. I can never remeber centre field having so room to knock over points when Harnan played. In 5 games in Croke in All Irelands and national league semi final Meath lost once to Cork in late 80s early 90s . Meath were much the better team with better players. From 1987 to 1991 once Lyons O Malley O Connell Harnan McEntee Staff Flynn and O Rourke were on the field Meath couldnt be beaten. The loses in 89 v Dublin was due to Lyons been injured. No Dublin player scored in the square a winning goal like McNally did in 89 when lyons around. The lose of Harnan ( he was injured) in 90 was pivotal to Meath. And the loss of O Malley ( also injured) in 91 final meant Down ran riot on the left hand side of the defence , something that never happened when 1988 footballer of the year Robbie O Malley was playing. Michael Muiritigh says O Malley is the greatest corner back he ever saw play. Donegal were not good enough or ready to win Sam in 1990. It was a great learning experience in 1990 coming up against the best team of the era. Donegal were ready and good enough to win in 1992. .

So, on one side we have an anonymous nobody on the internet, prone to making emotive posts, 28 years later claiming Meath beat Donegal by 8 points in second gear.

On the other side we have Liam Hayes. Somebody who ACTUALLY PLAYED IN THAT GAME. Somebody who actually wrote a matter of days later in a national newspaper that it was the toughest game he ever played in.

Hmmmm, I wonder whose version of events is more likely to be true?

Using your logic, since Dublin beat Kerry by 7 points in the 2013 semi-final, they must have done it in second gear?

And besides, I've no idea why you went off on such a tangent, telling me how great the team that I called 'great' in the post you were replying to actually were!

For the avoidance of doubt and for the record, the Meath Senior Gaelic Football team of the late 1980s/early 1990s were my favourite team of all-time. In any sport.

Full of truly great and skilful players, who were tough as nails and never knew when they were beaten. I felt the way they were treated by the media in general was an utter disgrace. When Harnan and McEntee refused to attend the presentation ceremony of their All-Ireland medals, I totally agreed with them.

So, please, no more lectures on something we're not even arguing about.

megadodge · 07-05-2018 08:52PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

Some Kerry players who debuted 1980 to 87

1 Tommy Doyle Kerry All Ireland winning captain , 3 time All star winner

2 Ambrose O Dovanan Kerry All Ireland winning captain, formed the best midfield partnership in the countru in mid 80s with Jack O se

3 Ger Lynch One of the best wing backs in the mid 80s, a better player then Aidan O Mahony or any other current kerry defenders

4 Tom Spillane 2 time All star winner another top class defender .

5 And Finally this player debuted in 1987 you might have heard of him he was called Maurice Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald is possibly one of the most talented players ever. Considered in kerry and throughout the country as an all time great and considered in the kingdom as one of their greatest players ever. Only Cooper or Sheedy would comparable to Fitz in the last 60 years. .

You were the one who asked about “all-time great players” originally.

1. Tommy Doyle was a very good player, but not an all-time great.
2. Ambrose O'Donovan was not an all-time great.
3. Ger Lynch was not an all-time great.
4. Tom Spillane was a very good player, but not an all-time great.
5. Maurice Fitzgerald was in my opinion, the best footballer I ever saw. Unfortunately for you, he made his debut in 1988! Which is outside the period I asked about. But hey, we know facts aren't your strong point, so I'll let you away with that.

Sonny678 · 07-05-2018 11:51PM

megadodge wrote:

Well, the miserable pessimists like you that think all is doom and gloom would think that.

megadodge wrote:

On the other hand, in 1987 Donegal were just after winning their second All-Ireland U21 title in five years. They blew their 1983 Senior All-Ireland semi-final against Galway. In the mid to late 1980s there was a definite 'underachievers' aura about Donegal. The general opinion on them by those who knew their football was if they ever got it right they would be a very dangerous team. That opinion was proven correct.

megadodge wrote:

Now go back again and compare that with the current Sligo team.

Again u r not listening to me. Donegal pre 1980s in the 1970s would be similar to Sligo now.

Donegal before 1980 = Sligo currently.

Very very similar. I know Donegal had potential in 80s. But you could say Sligo showed some potential in 00s winning Connacht title and beating such counties as kildare and Tyrone in the championship. Its a general comparsion not exactly the same comparsion.

Again Donegal pre 1980 = Sligo currently.

In 1990 Donegal had 4 Ulster titles
Now Sligo have 3 Connacht titles
In 1990 Donegal had never won in Croke Park in the championship
Sligo won first match in Croker in 00s.

It seems to me u dont realise what a landmark win Donegal was in 92. Before 92 Armagh Tyrone Derry Donegal did not beat Dublin. Ulster teams were seen as the easy draw. After 91 and 92 Ulster teams were Kerry and Dublins main nemesis and for Kerry and Dublin on many occasions they couldnt beat them. In the 70s and 80s when u drew an Ulster team in a semi final it was seen as easy game to final. Since 91 92 some of the best managers players teams tactics have come from Ulster. 1991 and 92 are pivotal years and wins which changed the face of Ulster football. Monaghan Tyrone and to a very less extect Donegal had shown some promise in 80s. But were still seen as the weaker provience. After 92 Ulster became the strongest.
.
Im just comparing both in a general way how Donegal was a third division county up to 1980 and Sligo would be similar, thats it. Again Im comparing counties records. Not actual teams .

Sonny678 · 07-05-2018 11:52PM

megadodge wrote:

You were the one who asked about â€œall-time great playersâ€ originally.

megadodge wrote:

1. Tommy Doyle was a very good player, but not an all-time great. 2. Ambrose O'Donovan was not an all-time great. 3. Ger Lynch was not an all-time great. 4. Tom Spillane was a very good player, but not an all-time great. 5. Maurice Fitzgerald was in my opinion, the best footballer I ever saw. Unfortunately for you, he made his debut in 1988! Which is outside the period I asked about. But hey, we know facts aren't your strong point, so I'll let you away with that.

You said from 1980 to 1987. ???

Sonny678 · 08-05-2018 12:03AM

megadodge wrote: »

How many 'great' players made their debut for Kerry after 1980 until 1987? At a stretch Tom Spillane.

You mentioned the years 1980 and 1987. I gave you Maurice Fitz debuted in 87. Thats the years you asked for.

Look above. Just because I could name an all time great in the period u change the goalposts . You gave the years. I gave Fitzgerald now u r being petty.

Maurice Fitzgerald debuted in the 1987 -88 League campaign. Back then 3 games of the league where played before Christmas. So in the winter of 1987 in the national league division 1 Maurice Fitzgerald made his senior kerry inter county debut in 1987 not 1988. Check it out and you will find he debuted at this time. And I was at the match in Navan when Meath played Kerry in the national league division 1 in the winter of 1987 when Maurice Fitzgerald was introduced in the second half. So in conclusion Maurice Fitzgerald debuted for kerry in 1987.

And the years you asked for a kerry great to debuted in was between 1980 to 1987. So stop moving the goalposts.

Sonny678 · 08-05-2018 12:24AM

megadodge wrote:

Again, you're proving how little you know about success in sports. 'Natural talent' and 'inate ability' are complete myths. There have been countless scientific studies conducted and numerous books written on the amount of PRACTICE required to reach the elite levels in sport. 10,000 hours is regarded by those who have actually studied the issue as the amount of PRACTICE one needs to reach elite level.

megadodge wrote:

A perfect example would be one of my all-time favourite sportsmen growing up (despite the fact that he was a nutter) - Alex Higgins. Often referred to as 'the most naturally talented player ever to play snooker' which of course is utterly unprovable. The problem is â€“ Alex Higgins played snooker for NINE HOURS A DAY, EVERY DAY in his formative years. Some 'natural talent' that is.

megadodge wrote:

I would advise you to read either of the following books (among many others) to educate yourself on the above, but I know you won't, because then you'd have to re-think a lot of things you have been lecturing people about. They certainly opened my eyes.

megadodge wrote:

Bounce: The Myth of Talent. The Power of Practice by Matthew Syed

megadodge wrote:

The Talent Code: Greatness isn't Born. It's Grown. By Daniel Coyle

I have heard of 10000 hour rule. Its the current favourite study of the month. There's always some studies people are spouting as gospel. 10000 rule sounds alright in that of course you have to pratice over and over again to improve on something but some people do have an inate talent or gift. Glen Whelan could have practiced 10000 hours but he would never become Messi. James Mcarthy could have practiced 10000 hours and probaly did but he aint no George Best.

The Beatles I would say practiced the 10000 rule but so did probaly Def Leppard. But while Joe Elliot sang let gets, let's get rocked and the Beatles were singing let me take you down because Im going Strawberry fields Forver. The reason was John lennon was a genius. Look at another genius Brian Wilson. His brothers would have practiced as much as him. 3 Wilson brothers in the The Beach Boys but only 1 is considered a musical genius. The Wilson brothers grew up together singing and practicising from the age of 5 or 6 together, lived together in the same room til they were 15 or 16 practicising music all the time. Formed a band together in late teens with hours and hours of practice. Yet only one of them was considered a bona fide musical genius, Brian Wilson. John lennon at the age of 10 thought he was a genius. Sounds mad but there is a thin line between madness and genius. But some people do have it , that a little bit of magic, touch of genius that other people dont. Yes they have to work hard. But some people are just born with an inate ability and others arent. I believe Mozart lennon Hendrix Wilson Dylan Shakespeare Hemingway Joyce Fitzgerald are geniuses and the talent was there just the hours and hours work brought it to the publics attention.

Sonny678 · 08-05-2018 01:02AM

megadodge wrote:

You keep doing this. Stating an opinion of yours as some sort of corroborated fact. Can you actually prove that statement? No you can't! But it doesn't stop you stating it of course.

When I say Pele is considered by many to be greatest soccer player ever. Im not just coming to this conclusion I didnt just annoit Pele myself. Any soccer list ot greatest players would have Pele 1 or at least in top 2 or 3. I have seem 20 or 30 lists of greatest soccer players ever with Peles name number 1. I have heard hundreds of time by ex players from John Giles to Bobby Chartlon from Gary lineker to Wayne Rooney saying Pele is the greatest. Newspaper article's when he is on TV he is introduced as the best soccer player ever. Millions of soccer fans throughout the world in the last 50 years would say Pele is the greatest. Brazil is the home of soccer and that whole nation would say Pele is the greatest. If you didnt know that Pele was considered the best or one of bestfootballers of all time you would be seen as known very little about soccer. Ask anyone in Africa South America and Europe about Pele and they will answer he is the greatest or one of them. So I aint picking Pele out ot thin air.

megadodge wrote:

Funny how you fail to mention either Messi or Ronoldo? Ever hear of those two?

Yes Messi and Ronaldo are considered all time greats. Maybe Xavi and Inestia would be considered also. The greatest soccer players of all time eg Pele Chartlon Beckenbauer Cruyff Maradona Messi Ronaldo. We are lucky to be around with two greats like Ronaldo or Messi playing currently . They are with Zidane the only players from the last ten years who would be up there with Maradona and Co.. David Beckham Alan Shearer Henry Keane would be great players but very few supporters would have them in the league of Pele and Co.

If u asked any English supporter who was greatest English player of all time They would say Bobby Chartlon or Bobby Moore
Ask a Dutch fan best Dutch player they would say Cruyff.
Ask Argentina fan they would say Maradona. Until Messi wins the World Cup he will always be behind Maradona in Argentinan eyes.
look at when Cruyff died. look at all the commentsthe adulation how from soccer players to fans over and over again it was said he is one of the greatest players ever .

In Argentina Maradona is considered a greater player then Messi. This is a known fact. Until Messi wins the world cup with Argentina, Diego will remain number 1 in the eyes of Argentina fans.

If you asked Irish soccer fans who are the top 3 or 4 Irish players ever. I would say Giles, Brady, McGrath and Keane would be top 4. Giles played in 70s, Brady 80s, McGrath 90s and Keane 90s and 00s. But you probaly consider Glen Whelan Stephen Ward Daryl Muprhy better players seen they had better sports science wud u not.

Could you answer 2 questions just 2 questions.

Can you name your top 3 Irish soccer International players ever?.
And can you name 1 Irish soccer player who played in France 2016 who wud get in the top 10 Irish players of all time. And dont say Wes Hoolihan. Only Dunphy think Hoolihan is world class.

megadodge wrote:

Funny how you fail to mention either Messi or Ronoldo? Ever hear of those two?

Yes along with Maradona Pele Chartlon Cruyff Di Stefanio Best they are considered all time greats. But you must be the only person on planet Earth who calls himself a sportsfan that doesn't know Pele or Maradona are considered the greatest soccer players ever. I don't believe millions of soccer fans can be all wrong. Even in Argentina there is such thing as a religion ,an actual religion with churchs and followers devoted to Maradona. I dont see Wes Hoolihan having a religion devoted to him in Ireland with Eamon Dunphy as Archbishop.

megadodge wrote:

As a person who could legitimately be considered a boxing expert (or near to it) I'd agree with the others. Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight of all time. Yet again you're

Ever hear of DJ Carey or Henry Shefflin?

I cannot believe it u actually believe a sportsperson before 2010 has some ability . Thanks for acknowledging the greatness of Ali.

Who is the considered the greatest Boxer ever ? Sugar Ray Robinson is considered pound for pound the greatest all round boxer of all time yet he hasnt boxed since 1965.Being a Boxing expert you would know in the Heavyweight division Rocky Marciano Joe Frazier Ali even Sonny liston and a young Mike Tyson would be a different league to any of the current boxers. But according to u David Haye and Tysn Fury would be a greater boxer then Joe Frazier. I would say most Boxing experts would say Haye wouldnt get into the ring with Frazier , he would be afraid to . He would know he wouldnt last 2 rounds with a Foreman or an Ali.

megadodge wrote:

So the Barcelona team of 2005-2015 don't match up?

Where did I say Barcelona wouldn't match up. You are making things up again. Ask millions of soccer fans and they will tell you Barcelona 05 to 15 is one of the best club teams ever . And I agree 110% they are . And millions would have them up there with the other great club sides
eg AC Milan in 90s, Liverpool 77 to 86 , Ajax and Munich in the 70s and Madrid teams of early 60s.
The Spain team of this Millenium would be up there with other all time great international socccer teams eg France 98 to 2000, Spain 2010 to 2012, Italy 1982 Brazil 1970, Germany 72 to 74 .
Unlike u I can acknowledge greatness in the current era and the past. I dont just accept greatness post 2000.

The_Honeybadger · 08-05-2018 01:07AM

10,000 hour rule is a massively flawed concept and there are plenty of studies that discredit it. One study from Princeton concluded that practice accounts for 26% of performance in sports. Practice is an important factor and will improve players without a doubt, but some people are more gifted than others to begin with. Speed, strength, intelligence, temperament, instinct, coordination etc etc all make up an elite player and most of that can be improved with practice, but the base level you begin with and your aptitude to learn are key.

To state that talent and natural ability do not exist is farcical.

Sonny678 · 08-05-2018 01:21AM

megadodge wrote:

There you go again.

megadodge wrote:

Ever hear of DJ Carey or Henry Shefflin?

Yes Shefflin is considered one of the greatest. But Ring for thousands of Irish people is the greatest. RTE did a poll in 2009 for the greatest Irish sportsperson of all time. The Irish public voted in their thousands that Christy Ring was not only the only hurler but the only GAA person in the top ten. And this was when Shefflin was winning his fourth All Ireland at the height of his powers , yet a player who hadnt played for half a century was voted by thousands of Irish people in their top ten ever ahead of Henry. Again Im not the only one who thinks Ring was the greatest. Most hurling fans would agree Ring was one of the greatest hurlers ever.

DJ Carey is not in the league of Henry Shefflin or Tommy Walsh or a Christy Ring or Jimmy Doyle. Ask any true hurling expert and they will tel you Eddie keher was better. Keher delivered man of the match performances in final after final in September. In his first 4 finals DJ was kept scoreless and had nightmare games. A great goal poacher , but ask any real hurling experts and they will tell you King Henry was a different league to DJ.

Sonny678 · 08-05-2018 01:54AM

How come Sugar Ray Robinson is considered the greatest pound for pound Boxer of all time . His last fight was in 1965? . Any boxing expert would tell you he is.

Sugar Ray Robinson is considered the greatest boxer pound for pound of all time. Robinson has been ranked as the greatest boxer of all time by sportswriters, fellow boxers, and trainers. In 1997, The Ring ranked him as the best pound-for-pound fighter in history, and in 1999 he was named Welterweight of the Century, Middleweight of the Century, and overall Fighter of the Century by the Associated Press. In 2007 ESPN.com featured the piece "50 Greatest Boxers of All Time", in which it named Robinson the top boxer in history. Robinson was also ranked as the #1 welterweight and the #1 pound-for-pound boxer of all time by the International Boxing Research Organization. Yet his last fight was in 1965. You would probaly think Conor McGreogor would beat Sugar Ray , surely modern sports science would be enough to beat Sugar Ray. With Conors 1 fight , with 1 loss he would be better then Sugar Rays record. Just for the record Sugar Ray's record was he had 84 knockouts at the pinnacle of his career. Amazingly, in over 200 fights, Sugar Ray was never physically knocked out (though he did receive one technical KO). Altogether, he amassed 109 KOs, and finished with a record of 175-19-6 with two no-decisions. One word , unbelieveable, thats what you call an all time great sportsperson.

Sonny678 · 08-05-2018 02:15AM

i

mickeyk wrote: »

10,000 hour rule is a massively flawed concept and there are plenty of studies that discredit it. One study from Princeton concluded that practice accounts for 26% of performance in sports. Practice is an important factor and will improve players without a doubt, but some people are more gifted than others to begin with. Speed, strength, intelligence, temperament, instinct, coordination etc etc all make up an elite player and most of that can be improved with practice, but the base level you begin with and your aptitude to learn are key.

To state that talent and natural ability do not exist is farcical.

I couldnt agree more with the above. I agree 110%.

Michael Jordan susposedly can jump higher then the normal person. I probaly have that wrong, but he has some sort of skillset that is unusually strong. Jordan is considered one of the greatest if not the greatest basketball player ever. Watching him you could see he was an unique athlete.

If u named the greatest golfers of all time of course Tiger Woods and probaly Phil Michelson would be there but so would be Seve Ballesteros Tom Watson Gary Player Arnold Palmer Ben Hogan Sam Snead .

And the top three golfers ever. Look up any list of top golfers anywhere I have seen hundreds and and the top are always 3 Bobby Jones 2 Tiger Woods 1 Jack Nicholas .
While Tiger came close , Jack Nicholas is still universally considered the greatest golfer ever.
Question Could you name the top 4 golfers ever?

The 10000 hour is a bit of bogus idea . Take music surely there has been artist or musicians in the last 5 years in UK Ireland and USA who spent 10000 hours practicisng their songwriting or playing a guitar. Name 1 band who debuted in this decade that would be up there with The Beatles The Stones Led Zepplin Pink Flyod The Smiths Nirvana Radiohead. Name 1 album considered a bona vide classic like Nevermind The Joshua Tree London Calling Segerat Pepper. There hasnt been. Most rock experts now believe rock music is dead. Look at Ed Sheeran filling out stadiums all over the place. Prince or Michael Jackson would be in a different league to this bog standard busker. Im sure many young bands in the last ten years have spent 10000 hours on practice. But not one great band from Manchster liverpool or Dublin recently. Because there is no geniuses out there there are no Lennons and Mcarthney, no Hendrixs, No Sly Stones, No David Bowies, No Bob Dylans, No Morrisey and Marrs. Geniuses with inate talent, a magic that a musician or a sportsperson has in them. They have to work hard to perfect it, but some people are just that more talented then others. Colm Cooper is a better footballer then Francie Bellew. He was born with more talent then Francie. Francie could practice 5000000 hours and he wouldnt be able to score a goal like Gouch , or like Matt Cooner or like Peter Canavan.

PS Simply put I believe there is all time great sportpeople in current times eg Ronaldo, Messi, Tommy Walsh, Henry Shefflin, Tony McCoy, Aidan O Brien and Tiger Woods. But I also believe there are all time great sportpeople in the past eg Pele, Maradona, Best, Ring, Rachard, Lester Piggot, Vncent O Brien, Jack Nicholas. I dont put a boundary or a limit to a time on where greatness can occur. It can occur in any era or any age. You seem to believe greatness can only be achieved in the current modern times. I think that is a very limited way of looking at sporting achievements.

You r also kind of inferring that Im just deciding that Pele is the greatest or Ring is the best hurler. Im just reading listening to hundreds of different articles or other sportspeople, other sports fans saying the same thing. If there is a national poll by the national broadcaster and Ring is the only GAA person in the top ten Irish sportspersons of all time, it shows I aint on my own in the belief that Christy Ring is an all time great. When I say Jack Nicholas is considered the greatest golfer with Tiger a close second . Also that is something I have heard from the USA to Europe on TV from journalistt to fans to players. Whoever wins the most majors is considered the best in Golf. Jack has 18, until someone beats that he will be considered the best. The only one close is Tiger. I havent decided , the golfing fans and experts throughtout the world have decided.

seligehgit · 08-05-2018 07:14AM

Mod

This thread has gone wildly off topic and is no longer contributing anything beneficial to what was an interesting discussion point.

Thread closed.

Inter County player Turnover at Unprecedented Levels

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