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Inter County player Turnover at Unprecedented Levels

  • 30-04-2018 9:11pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    Throughout division 4 3 and 2, players are leaving panels for different reasons at a rate we have never witnessed before in football in recent years. From Cork to Derry from Wexford to Galway, the number of players leaving panels is unprecedented and very worrying. Colm Keys in the Irish Indo recently wrote an article on this matter. He had done research on players who played in last years league and championship in the 32 counties, but did not play any part in this years league whatsoever . The numbers are very revealing.


    Players rarely left panels 20 or so years ago. But with the introduction of the qualifiers in the early 00s, we saw players from div 3 and div 4 teams walking away when there team was beaten in the championship and their county undertook the qualifer route. The GAA didnt care. But it set a dangerous precident. For the first time ever many players would leave a panel ( many of them went to US for the summer ) in the championship, in the summer. In the last 5 or 6 years we have seen players leaving panels for many reasons in strong traditional counties , division 2 teams. For example Jamie Clarke possibly the best forward in the country, definatly the best Armagh footballer of his generation. This year and 2 seasons ago he did not commit to the county team. Counties like Cork Down and Meath are all seen a turnover of their panels that were unimaginable 10 years. Its not just division 2, 3 and 4 teams. Some division 1 teams are also facing the same issue. We are now seen players leaving at a level for different reasons we have never seen before in the game nationwide


    Anyway here are the stats, the facts. Make of them what u want.
    What counties have the lowest number players that have left the panel this year? . Yes the top teams in division 1 have the less player drain.
    Below r the number of players who were in played in the league and championship last year for their county but did not resurface in 2018 league for different reasons
    1 Tyrone 4 players
    2 Monaghan 5 players
    3 Dublin 6 players
    4 Donegal 6 players
    5 Mayo 6 players
    Basically 5 of the 6 best teams in the country all sucessful counties, recently have the lowest number of player turnover in the country .
    The other division 1 teams numbers are
    Kerry 11 players ( Kerry are in transition, and are overhauling their panel. This would be a normal number for a county in transition)
    Kildare have 9 and Galway have 10 players who were on last years panel. ( I would say kildare are probaly a division 2 team and while Galway have shown great promise this spring. Until we see those performances repeated in this summer and next year, we will then see Galways true worth . Derry Cork Roscommon and kildare had strong division 1 league campaigns in the last 5 to 6 years , but the championship that followed was very poor for all those counties. ) But overall the top teams in the country, keep their players best. Outside div 1, its a different story altogether, with player turnover at unprecedented levels in the last few years.


    We are seen for the first time in the last few years huge players turnover in strong traditional counties eg Cork Down . These counties are having their worst decade in generations . For example this is Meaths worst decade in 100 years, Galways worst decade since 1900 ( their worst decade in 100 years also ) and Down and Cork worst decade in 70 years and Armagh Derry and loais worst decade in 50 years. It is also kildares worst decade in 90 years so far along with the 1980s.
    All these counties are reaching all time lows collectively . As Paddy O Rourke said recently players are putting in huge effort but with no sucess on the field. The below stats tell the picture nationwide


    Below r the number of players from counties who have were on panels last year, played in the league or championship in 2017 but did not play any role in this years league on the county team or panel.
    First we name strong football counties who were successful in the recent past
    Roscommon 12 players
    Derry 19 players
    Cork 18 players
    Meath 16 players
    Offaly 16 players
    Galway 10 players
    Down 12 players
    Cavan 10 players
    Laois 11 players
    20 or 15 years ago it would be unimaginable if 12 players were off the Down panel in 12 months or 18 players in Cork. But that is happening now. Do the GAA care?. What happens when players start to leave the Mayos and Kerrys in droves in the future.

    Other counties players who participanted in last years league or championship, but did not resurface this year
    Leitrim 13 players
    London 14 players
    Sligo 13 players
    longford 12 players
    louth 14 players
    Westmeath 13 players
    Wexford 17 players
    Wicklow 15 players
    Clare 10 players
    limerick 12 players
    Antrim 14 players
    Armagh 10 players


    From a national level. This is very worrying. For nearly all division 2 3 and 4 teams the numbers are huge. There has been a major turnover of players in the last 12 months from Derry to Cork. 22 of the 32 counties have 10 or more players that participated last year but havent this year. More then one in three of every footballers nation wide that was part of their counties panel in the league and championship in 2017 did not resurface in 2018 . Of the 1040 players nationwide who saw action in the league or championship in 2017, 366 have not played so far in 2018. 35 % of the players from all the 32 counties who played last year in the league or champuinship did not resurface in this years league.


    This is part and parcel of modern football. Every year now across division 2 3 and 4 and even division 1 counties there is a massive percentage fall off in the inter county game.Do the GAA care? Will the problem get worse?..Or we already nationwide at crisis level?. If the current trend continues in all the counties things will inevitably get worse and worse and we could end up with maybe 1 or 2 counties in the country who will yearly have very little turnver of players. Is that what will happen in 2020s 2030s and 40s?. Time will tell.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,236 ✭✭✭ Dr. Kenneth Noisewater


    It's a generational thing, I reckon. Millenials are more likely to pack in a job and head off travelling at the age of 25 than the generation before them who might have been married with a mortgage and a young family at that age.

    It stands to reason that intercounty GAA players are no different. They put a huge amount of commitment in from a young age and as a result, might feel like they want to see a bit of the world while they have the chance. Many of them seem to be going to the US to play football there and enjoy themselves, but equally, they might be following other pursuits (career, study, etc.)

    From a Roscommon point of view, we've lost lads for a variety of reasons, one fella was getting married and starting a new job (I think), another moved to New York to pursue a career in fashion, another is studying medicine. The level of commitment, fitness and professionalism these days for these young lads is so far ahead of what players in the 80s and 90s would have been used to and it's a lot harder for them to juggle it with life outside of GAA. You see it at the highest level with the likes of Lee Chin, Kieran Donaghy etc who, at some stage have decided not to work in order to focus completely on being, essentially, full time GAA players.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,199 ✭✭✭✭ rossie1977


    I said it many times here in the past but the teams that manage to keep the majority of their best players year in year out are usually the most successful.

    For a small county the level of turnover in Roscommon over the past 10-15 years is astonishing. In 2010 Roscommon won the Connacht title and only one player (McDermott) who either started or came on as sub that day played any part in the Connacht final success of last year. What is more glaring is the age profile of that 2010 team which was dominated by Roscommons 2006 winning minors; Domican was 21, Ormsby was 22, Keenan was 21, O'Gara was 22, Cregg was 23, Shine was 21 (all those started), Higgins was 21, Colm Garvey was 21, Paul Garvey was 20. Carty another of the 2006 winning minors, 21 at the time and cathal shine 18 were on the squad that day and would play important roles on the senior team over the next five years were no longer on the squad by 2017 due to varying reasons.

    Compare that to Mayo. Of the team that lost to Longford in 2010 qualifiers David Clarke, Chris Barrett, Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins, Donal Vaughan, Kevin McLoughlin, Seamus O’Shea, Andy Moran, Aidan O’Shea, Alan Freeman, Barry Moran, Alan Dillon all started and Tom Parsons came on as sub..all would play major roles in getting Mayo to All-Ireland finals between 2012-17.

    We haven't lost as many key players this year it must be said. Only really Cian Connolly of last year's main squad didn't play in the league this year and we lost Sean Mullooly half way through, both are travelling/working in the states this summer. Ronan Stack was injured all year and the 3-4 Glaveys lad were preparing for the intermediate all Ireland final. The others like Brian Murtagh, Tom Featherstone, Colin Compton probably wouldn't have got much game time anyway given Peter Domican, Niall/Conor/Ronan Daly and Cathal Cregg returned to the panel this year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,724 ✭✭✭ nice_guy80


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    I said it many times here in the past but the teams that manage to keep the majority of their best players year in year out are usually the most successful.

    For a small county the level of turnover in Roscommon over the past 10-15 years is astonishing. In 2010 Roscommon won the Connacht title and only one player (McDermott) who either started or came on as sub that day played any part in the Connacht final success of last year. What is more glaring is the age profile of that 2010 team which was dominated by Roscommons 2006 winning minors; Domican was 21, Ormsby was 22, Keenan was 21, O'Gara was 22, Cregg was 23, Shine was 21 (all those started), Higgins was 21, Colm Garvey was 21, Paul Garvey was 20. Carty another of the 2006 winning minors, 21 at the time and cathal shine 18 were on the squad that day and would play important roles on the senior team over the next five years were no longer on the squad by 2017 due to varying reasons.

    Compare that to Mayo. Of the team that lost to Longford in 2010 qualifiers David Clarke, Chris Barrett, Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins, Donal Vaughan, Kevin McLoughlin, Seamus O’Shea, Andy Moran, Aidan O’Shea, Alan Freeman, Barry Moran, Alan Dillon all started and Tom Parsons came on as sub..all would play major roles in getting Mayo to All-Ireland finals between 2012-17.

    We haven't lost as many key players this year it must be said. Only really Cian Connolly of last year's main squad didn't play in the league this year and we lost Sean Mullooly half way through, both are travelling/working in the states this summer. Ronan Stack was injured all year and the 3-4 Glaveys lad were preparing for the intermediate all Ireland final. The others like Brian Murtagh, Tom Featherstone, Colin Compton probably wouldn't have got much game time anyway given Peter Domican, Niall/Conor/Ronan Daly and Cathal Cregg returned to the panel this year.

    No employment in Roscommon
    Mayo has that option


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    nice_guy80 wrote:
    No employment in Roscommon Mayo has that option


    Donegal and Monaghan have low turnover of players, Monaghan and particularly Donegal have issues with lack of employment, yet they have some of the lowest numbers of player leaving panels in the country. Its complicated but sucessful teams hold on to their players better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    But it must be said counties are sucessful then the players stay. But its not the players staying to make the county sucesful. That might not make sense. Its the counties r sucessful and the players stay.

    Take Donegal its not that players said we are staying that turned Donegal around, it was the appointment of a brillant charismatic innovative manager Jimmy MCGuiness , who captured the players and counties imagination similar to how loughnane did with Clare in 95 or Griffin dis with Wexford in 96 or Heffernan with Dublin in 74.

    Monaghan have a brillant underated manager in Malachy O Rourke who is after McGuiness and Galvin the best manager this decade. Also Monaghan have their best set of players in 30 years.

    Dublin have a golden generation of players backboned by excellent managers and coachs, a vibrat club scene and ever growing population where Dublin GAA senior teams huge popularity will lead to more and more youngsters wanting to play for the Dubs, Even Meath and kildare have become football nurserys for future Dublin footballers.

    Mayo have produced quality footballers and top class managers for the last 15 years. If All Ireland medals where given out for bravey this current Mayo team would have a few All Irelands by now. But whats driving Mayo to 4 All Ireland finals in 6 years, which has never happened before ( A county losing 4 finals in 6 years). To keep coming back is remarkable and you have to admire their bravery. But its become so important to Mayo people to win Sam. Its like the county, the players, the fans are on a crusade to win Sam. In that so many times you hear Mayo fans ' before I die I want to see Mayo win Sam'. It means so much to Mayo people. Winning Sam would mean more to them then any other county. Its become a counties dream, almost obession to end the famine and break the curse. Thats what driving these brave Mayo footballers. I think if Mayo had won in 2012 or 13 they wouldnt have reached the last 2 finals. I know its hard to prove. But Mayo quest for Sam is being driven by the passion and hunger of a county desire to win an All Ireland that has become so important to every man woman and child in Mayo. Very admirable passion.

    kerry are always strong , thats the genius of kerry football, though this has been one of Kerrys least sucessful decades. The All Irelands in 2014 and 1997 ( even tough 97 was so important, they defeated Clare Cavan and Mayo to win Sam) are probaly in the bottom 2 of All Irelands kerry have won in the last 50 years. 52 53 55 59 69 70 wins, 75 78 79 80 81 84 85 86 wins, 2000 to 2004 06 07 09 wins where all better teams then 2014 team. In every decade kerry have produced all time greats 60s eg O Connell, Dwyer 70s 80s eg Sheedy J O Se P Spillane, 90s Moyihan Fitzgerald D O Se 00s Cooper Sullivan T O Se. How many all time great players, best in their position ever have kerry produced since 2010. I would say no kerry debuted since 2010 would b3 considered an all time great. So it has been a poor decade for kerry so far. Still they have still been competitive and strong.
    Tyrone have produced teams in 80s 90s 00s and this decade that where all contenders for Sam. Before 80s Tyrone where div 3 county. But with underage sucess good planning and great management they have become a serios power in the last 40 years. Even though I think the teams of 80s 90s and of course 00s are stronger then the current outfit.

    So all the counties above have been sucessful for different reasons . The players then stay in sucessful outfits and the sucess continues. However if the current thread continues players leaving panels in the majority of divsion 1 teams will be an issue in the next 10 years or so. Then the GAA might sit up and take notice again. When we have All Ireland semi final like we did in 1982 when 15000 people turned up to see Kerry v Armagh. The Super 8s are going to make things much worse for div 2 3 and 4 teams. If a team make the last 8 outside div 1 the chances of three massive hammerings at the hands of div 1 teams will set those teams back big time. The GAA dont seem to care that there is a massive exodus of players from county panels in this decade the like we have never seen before.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    The stats are from Irish Independent. When I first read them I was shocked at how widespread and high numbers are throughout the country particularly leinster. This is leinsters worst decade ever in terms of competitiveness. Compared to the late 90s a golden age, where you had 4 top division 1 teams in the provience all winning titles eg All Ireland leinster national league division 1. Even the 00s was much more competitive with it been Westmeath laois and kildares ( along with 90s) best decade in generations. Even in Meath we declined in 00s we still defeated Kerry Dublin Tyrone Mayo and Galway in the championship. We havent beaten 1 top division 1 team in the championship this decade so far. Players leaving leinster panels and panels nationwide is a serious negative thread. But as Paddy O Rourke said, your putting in so much effort with little or no return.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    i just want to show the actual number of players and panels and numbers below altogether. I think that alone shows how widespread players leaving panels. For nearly all division 2 3 and 4 teams the numbers are huge, anything over 10 is a high number, 22 counties have over ten players.


    Below r the number of players who played in the league and championship last year 2017 for their county but did not resurface in 2018 league for different reasons


    Derry 19 players
    Cork 18 players
    Wexford 17 players
    Offaly 16 players
    Meath 16 players
    Wicklow 15 players
    Antrim 14 players
    London 14 players
    louth 14 players
    Leitrim 13 players
    Westmeath 13 players
    Sligo 13 players
    longford 12 players
    Down 12 players
    Roscommon 12 players
    limerick 12 players
    Kerry 11 players
    Laois 11 players
    Clare 10 players
    Cavan 10 players
    Galway 10 players
    kildare 9 players
    Dublin 6 players
    Donegal 6 players
    Mayo 6 players
    Monaghan 5 players
    Tyrone 4 players

    Of the 1040 players nationwide who saw action in the league or championship in 2017, 366 have not played so far in 2018.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭ ebbsy


    A lot of it is due to the demands made on these players. They are happy just to play for their clubs.

    What's the point in busting your nadgers for a couple of championship games ? Get a holiday or go travelling instead.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    Do you have details of 2016 vs 2017 for all league and championship games.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,797 ✭✭✭✭ PARlance


    Sonny678 wrote: »
    Donegal and Monaghan have low turnover of players, Monaghan and particularly Donegal have issues with lack of employment, yet they have some of the lowest numbers of player leaving panels in the country. Its complicated but sucessful teams hold on to their players better.

    Don't think it's too complicated tbh. As you say, successful teans hold onto their players better. That makes a lot of sense.

    As for Roscommon, I don't know what's up with them but it's a bit of a shambles. It's not as if they've been lacking underage talent over the last while, getting them in a County jersey seems a much harder task than it should be or is elsewhere.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    PARlance wrote: »
    Don't think it's too complicated tbh. As you say, successful teans hold onto their players better. That makes a lot of sense.

    As for Roscommon, I don't know what's up with them but it's a bit of a shambles. It's not as if they've been lacking underage talent over the last while, getting them in a County jersey seems a much harder task than it should be or is elsewhere.

    What about strong traditional sucessful counties like the below ?, many of them have as much underage sucess as Roscommon

    Derry 19 players
    Cork 18 players ( Cork have loads of underage talent)
    Offaly 16 players
    Meath 16 players
    Down 12 players
    Galway 11 players ( Galway have loads of underage talent)
    Cavan 10 players ( Cavan have loads of underage talent)
    kildare 9 players (Kildare have loads of underage talent)


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,199 ✭✭✭✭ rossie1977


    Donegal had won just one game in Ulster since 2006 when they lost to Antrim in 2009, yet the bulk of that team like the bulk of the Mayo team who lost to Sligo/Longford in 2010 remained http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/northern_ireland/the_championship/8098820.stm

    In many counties that wouldn't have happened, players would become disillusioned or management would lose faith in the players that failed to perform when expected. Yes a manager plays a big role but if mcguinness can't convince the likes of McGee. Lacey, Gallagher, McFadden, Hegarty etc to continue on all his managerial know how isn't going to get Donegal probably out of Ulster in 2011-12.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,797 ✭✭✭✭ PARlance


    Sonny678 wrote: »
    What about strong traditional sucessful counties like the below ?, many of them have as much underage sucess as Roscommon

    Derry 19 players
    Cork 18 players ( Cork have loads of underage talent)
    Offaly 16 players
    Meath 16 players
    Down 12 players
    Galway 11 players ( Galway have loads of underage talent)
    Cavan 10 players ( Cavan have loads of underage talent)
    kildare 9 players (Kildare have loads of underage talent)

    You're looking at stats from 1 year in isolation which isn't a great place to be looking from. You really need to look at historic churn over the past 20 years or so to see the trends.
    It does look very high but there are plenty of reasons go to explain it imo:

    1. Way more demands on players reduces the years some will / can put it.
    2. Much bigger squads, the turnover probably comes from peripheral players I would assume. Mayo have used about 50 players since Sept iirc.
    3. Extended season, lesser County players have little to play for in qualifers. In days gone by, they could have headed off and enjoyed the summer and come back refreshed for next years Championship match. A pointless slog for some. In yesteryear, they may have given the County 10 or so years (with all Summer off) but now they're not getting that Summer off and hard to stay around for as long.

    Re Roscommon, as Rossie1977 has been saying, this high turnover has been happening for the last 10-15 years. It's very noticeable and worse than any other County I would imagine. Rossie1977 might have some reasons for it, as an oitsider I would say it probably comes down to a combination of 3 main things... Players attitude / mentality, Managerial appointments, County Board.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    Stoner wrote: »
    Do you have details of 2016 vs 2017 for all league and championship games.

    No I dont have all the exact details of 2016 v 2017, but the numbers this year is very similar to the percentage fall off from year to year in the last few years in the inter county game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,199 ✭✭✭✭ rossie1977


    PARlance wrote: »

    Re Roscommon, as Rossie1977 has been saying, this high turnover has been happening for the last 10-15 years. It's very noticeable and worse than any other County I would imagine. Rossie1977 might have some reasons for it, as an oitsider I would say it probably comes down to a combination of 3 main things... Players attitude / mentality, Managerial appointments, County Board.

    Probably hit the nail on head there. I would add injuries and basically being worn out to the list. That group of all ireland winning minors from 2006 were playing football non stop year round from club, sigerson, minor, under 21, league and championship. Its no surprise that the three remaining members of that squad still on senior county panel took time off from football.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    PARlance wrote: »
    You're looking at stats from 1 year in isolation which isn't a great place to be looking from. You really need to look at historic churn over the past 20 years or so to see the trends.
    It does look very high but there are plenty of reasons go to explain it imo:

    1. Way more demands on players reduces the years some will / can put it.
    2. Much bigger squads, the turnover probably comes from peripheral players I would assume. Mayo have used about 50 players since Sept iirc.
    3. Extended season, lesser County players have little to play for in qualifers. In days gone by, they could have headed off and enjoyed the summer and come back refreshed for next years Championship match. A pointless slog for some. In yesteryear, they may have given the County 10 or so years (with all Summer off) but now they're not getting that Summer off and hard to stay around for as long.

    Re Roscommon, as Rossie1977 has been saying, this high turnover has been happening for the last 10-15 years. It's very noticeable and worse than any other County I would imagine. Rossie1977 might have some reasons for it, as an oitsider I would say it probably comes down to a combination of 3 main things... Players attitude / mentality, Managerial appointments, County Board.

    The number of players which left this year runs a very close line to the percentage fall off from year to year in this decade in the inter county game.

    There is definatly a trend occuring, is it a player drain? Well compared to 20 years ago, 19 players didnt leave a Derry panel over a year or 12 players leave a Down panel or 18 players didnt leave a Cork football panel 20 years ago. And I know for a fact that 16 players didnt leave a Meath panel over a year, 20 or 10 years ago.

    The breakdown in terms of players leaving each division is
    Division 1 66 players
    Division 2 103 players
    Divsion 3 107 players
    Division 4 94 players
    Division 2 and 3 are the divisions with the biggest drop off of players.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    Sonny678 wrote:
    No I dont have all the exact details of 2016 v 2017, but the numbers this year is very similar to the percentage fall off from year to year in the last few years in the inter county game.

    I was more interested in any comparison across both competitions.

    I'd imagine with 33 teams that most would have say 2 or 3 players that have yet to play this year but will by the end of the season. Or am I miles out


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,797 ✭✭✭✭ PARlance


    Sonny678 wrote: »
    The number of players which left this year runs a very close line to the percentage fall off from year to year in this decade in the inter county game.

    There is definatly a trend occuring, is it a player drain? Well compared to 20 years ago, 19 players didnt leave a Derry panel over a year or 12 players leave a Down panel or 18 players didnt leave a Cork football panel 20 years ago. And I know for a fact that 16 players didnt leave a Meath panel over a year, 20 or 10 years ago.

    The breakdown in terms of players leaving each division is
    Division 1 66 players
    Division 2 103 players
    Divsion 3 107 players
    Division 4 94 players
    Division 2 and 3 are the divisions with the biggest drop off of players.

    I guess I'm just not as surprised or alarmed by this change as you are, everthing has changed dramatically in 20 years.

    We've established that successful Counties have relatively low churn. That makes sense it it was probably always the case.

    So if we look at unsuccessful Counties, what has changed in 20 years?
    In short, an awful lot more commitment is required for longer periods but with the same return as 20 years ago, i.e nothing really in terms of success.

    To use a simplistic example:
    Player A played for Leitrim in 1997, he played a bit of College football for the craic, he wouldn't have been doing anywhere near the amount of County training for the League and he probably put in 6 hard weeks before losing his one and only Championship game in May. Straight on the plane to Boston.
    Sipping pints regularly metric: 10/12 months a year (if not 11.5)

    Player A20 played for Leitrim in 2017, was training hard since September in a very professional College set up. Added to that, he would have had a lot of County commitments with hard training for the League. Straight into Championship training after and living clean until finally being dumped out of the Championship in mid-July against Carlow...
    Sipping pints metric: He doesn't drink, he allows himself a few packs of Tatyo every August.

    Both end up with nothing (but pride). It's not that hard to see why player A might stick with it for longer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    PARlance wrote: »
    You're looking at stats from 1 year in isolation which isn't a great place to be looking from. You really need to look at historic churn over the past 20 years or so to see the trends.
    It does look very high but there are plenty of reasons go to explain it imo:

    1. Way more demands on players reduces the years some will / can put it.
    2. Much bigger squads, the turnover probably comes from peripheral players I would assume. Mayo have used about 50 players since Sept
    .

    No the players are not peripheral , they are players who played some part in a competitive game in the league or championship in 2017

    The total number players used in 2017 in the league and championship / The number of players who didnt return this year

    Galway 33 / 11 did not return
    Leitrim 37/ 13 did not return
    London 31 / 14 did not return
    Roscommon 32/ 12 did not return
    Sligo 32 / 13 did not return
    Kildare 33 / 9 did not return
    Laois 34 / 11 did not return
    longford 29 / 12 did not return
    louth 33 / 14 did not return
    Offaly 35 / 16 did not return
    Meath 37/ 16 did not return
    Westmeath 33 / 13 did not return
    Wexford 32 / 17 did not return
    Clare 27 / 10 did not return
    Cork 35 / 18 did not return
    Kerry 35/ 11 did not return
    Limerick 29 / 12 did not return
    Antrim 33 / 14 did not return
    Armagh 32 / 10 did not return
    Cavan 34 / 10 did not return
    Derry 37/ 19 did not return
    Down 33 / 12 did not return

    Mayo 34/ 6 did not return
    Dublin 35/ 6 did not return
    Donegal 31 / 6 did not return
    Monaghan 30/ 5 did not return
    Tyrone 31 / 4 did not return


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    PARlance wrote: »
    I guess I'm just not as surprised or alarmed by this change as you are, everthing has changed dramatically in 20 years.

    We've established that successful Counties have relatively low churn. That makes sense it it was probably always the case.

    So if we look at unsuccessful Counties, what has changed in 20 years?
    In short, an awful lot more commitment is required for longer periods but with the same return as 20 years ago, i.e nothing really in terms of success.

    To use a simplistic example:
    Player A played for Leitrim in 1997, he played a bit of College football for the craic, he wouldn't have been doing anywhere near the amount of County training for the League and he probably put in 6 hard weeks before losing his one and only Championship game in May. Straight on the plane to Boston.
    Sipping pints regularly metric: 10/12 months a year (if not 11.5)

    Player A20 played for Leitrim in 2017, was training hard since September in a very professional College set up. Added to that, he would have had a lot of County commitments with hard training for the League. Straight into Championship training after and living clean until finally being dumped out of the Championship in mid-July against Carlow...
    Sipping pints metric: He doesn't drink, he allows himself a few packs of Tatyo every August.

    Both end up with nothing (but pride). It's not that hard to see why player A might stick with it for longer.

    I was thinking to myself when you said you werent alarmed , I said to meself I betcha hes from Dublin Mayo Donegal Monaghan one of the top sucessful counties recently. It seems you are a Mayo man, Well If the trend continues this could be what is coming down the track for you guys and for the Mayo and Monaghan brillant current teams when they come to their natural end of a life cycle, theres a possiblity you will see drop off rates similar to the above occur in both counties which will continue for years. If 18 players can leave Cork, 19 players leave Derry , 16 players can leave Meath and 12 players can leave Down all within 12 months. That would have been unthinkable in Cork in 2010 when they won Sam, the same way it would have been unthinkable in 2010 when Down reached All Ireland final , the same way it would have been unthinkable in 2010 when Meath hammered Dublin by 5 goals . If this trend continues you might have Dublin and 1 or 2 other counties with litttle drop off of players and the rest are hitting the 20 player mark . Its a possibitly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,797 ✭✭✭✭ PARlance


    Considering the Championship hasn't started yet... It's a little soon to be stating players didn't return. At a minimum, like with like should be compared and look at the figures when Championship has been played. The numbers will change for sure.

    The "did not return" is a little alarmist too. Players get dropped. Players retire.

    And yes, I imagine that most of the churn (outside of retirements) happens on the periphery... i.e lads who might get some League time but aren't or won't ever be cut out for Championship. They are replaced (rather than them "not returning") by others who are given a chance the next year.

    I haven't heard of too many Managers saying they can't fill a squad (McStay has made comments about Roscommon but that is unique imo as mentioned previously) but you just seem set on throwing out poorly constructed stats in a "the sky is falling down" manner.

    The best measure would be to compare it on a Championship only basis imo.

    Have you any insight into it yourself that you will share? Or is the sky just falling down?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭ megadodge


    PARlance wrote: »
    Considering the Championship hasn't started yet... It's a little soon to be stating players didn't return. At a minimum, like with like should be compared and look at the figures when Championship has been played. The numbers will change for sure.

    The "did not return" is a little alarmist too. Players get dropped. Players retire.

    And yes, I imagine that most of the churn (outside of retirements) happens on the periphery... i.e lads who might get some League time but aren't or won't ever be cut out for Championship. They are replaced (rather than them "not returning") by others who are given a chance the next year.

    I haven't heard of too many Managers saying they can't fill a squad (McStay has made comments about Roscommon but that is unique imo as mentioned previously) but you just seem set on throwing out poorly constructed stats in a "the sky is falling down" manner.

    The best measure would be to compare it on a Championship only basis imo.

    Have you any insight into it yourself that you will share? Or is the sky just falling down?

    At last, a common sense post on a complete non-event. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

    In extended panels, early in the year players are tried out in the league who will never be next to close to making the championship team. It has always happened, but with bigger panels now more are tried, hence more not required come crunch time. It's simple maths.

    Roscommon are being quoted left, right and centre here, but from their championship run last year, off the top of my head only Cian Connolly and Sean Mulloolly are not on this year's panel. Mulloolly will almost certainly be back. The figure of 12 is completely misleading. The three Dalys and Cathal Cregg actually returned to the panel this year, all very good players three of whom will almost certainly be involved in the championship, but of course four fringe players had to make way for their return.

    Mountain. Molehill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    PARlance wrote: »
    Considering the Championship hasn't started yet... It's a little soon to be stating players didn't return. At a minimum, like with like should be compared and look at the figures when Championship has been played. The numbers will change for sure.

    The "did not return" is a little alarmist too. Players get dropped. Players retire.

    And yes, I imagine that most of the churn (outside of retirements) happens on the periphery... i.e lads who might get some League time but aren't or won't ever be cut out for Championship. They are replaced (rather than them "not returning") by others who are given a chance the next year.

    I haven't heard of too many Managers saying they can't fill a squad (McStay has made comments about Roscommon but that is unique imo as mentioned previously) but you just seem set on throwing out poorly constructed stats in a "the sky is falling down" manner.

    The best measure would be to compare it on a Championship only basis imo.

    Have you any insight into it yourself that you will share? Or is the sky just falling down?

    Of course players retire or dropped from panels. Its normal, teams comes to the end of its natural cycle eg Kerry have to rebuild at the moment. But there does seem to something occuring that is beyond the normal process of players leavin panels.

    The comment above I made that you questioned that players "did not return" is the truth. 19 players did not return for Derry this year and 18 for Cork. Its not alarmist , its a fact. An unsettling fact, but a fact all the same.

    Of course you will get players to fill up panel numbers, theres always someone that will play inter county, but the problem is you might be picking the 3rd best full back in the county because the other two best full backs have left the panel.

    Allot of those players that have left aint returning for the championship. Take Meath 16 have left , none of them will be coming back this year . Some are in the USA for work, others left for college, others went back to hurling. But in the words of Paddy O Rourke recently, he said players are putting in incredible work every year with little sucess to show for it. Thats whats happening. Meath overhauled their panel in the seasons 2014 to 2015. 2 to 3 years later the Meath panel was completely overhauled again with 11 players drafted into panel at the start of the season who had never played for Meath before. Now that is unprecedented for a county like Meath to overhaul its panel in such a short time. Down and Cork have done the same. We talking about 3 counties who are in the top 5 most sucessful counties in the country, who after kerry Dublin and Galway would be the three most sucessful consitently over the last 80 years. Those three counties won between them 8 All Irelands in 12 years not to long ago. Now 19 players are leaving the Cork set up, at a time when Cork are having their worst period since the 1950s. That was the last time Cork were in division 2 and defeated by Tipp and uncompetitive v Kerry. This is Meaths worst decade since 1920s and Downs worst decade since they appeared on the scene in the 60s.

    Something is occuring, one can ignore it, but then it will get worse. Its not just Paddy O Rourke other players are saying the effort and time taken up by inter county player and the rewards at the end of the day or season are an issue.

    Take ur own county Mayo. When this brillant team break up , you will have to overhaul the panel. If you look what happened in Meath Cork Down Derry or Armagh , Mayo could follow the same path. Monaghan the same. We could end having competitive Dublin and Kerry and thats it. It might not happen, I cannot read the future, but I can see in my own county which is a football mad county with a great traditon that players are drifting at unprecedented levels and its the same occurence in other strong football strongholds.

    You can ignore it. But there is an issue of player drain. The question is has it peaked or will it worsen. But one thing is for sure the GAA HQ couldnt give two ****s about whats happening at the moment. But if it happens where we end up in All Ireland semi final similar to 1982 when 15000 turned up then they will care, as the money / revenue will plumment. And the super 8 will not help matters whatsoever, it will worsen matters as any young up coming team like Tipp in 2016 , when a young up and coming team reach the super 8 they are looking at 3 massive hammering v top div 1 teams. And another group of players drop off and another overhaul of the county panel occurs. What if no shouts stop .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    megadodge wrote: »
    At last, a common sense post on a complete non-event. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

    In extended panels, early in the year players are tried out in the league who will never be next to close to making the championship team. It has always happened, but with bigger panels now more are tried, hence more not required come crunch time. It's simple maths.

    Roscommon are being quoted left, right and centre here, but from their championship run last year, off the top of my head only Cian Connolly and Sean Mulloolly are not on this year's panel. Mulloolly will almost certainly be back. The figure of 12 is completely misleading. The three Dalys and Cathal Cregg actually returned to the panel this year, all very good players three of whom will almost certainly be involved in the championship, but of course four fringe players had to make way for their return.

    Mountain. Molehill.

    Comments like that remind me of people predicting the property crash in 2008. And others spouting Oh no it will be grand, nothing to see here, and then its full blown crisis.

    It is getting worse. You can ignore , or fail to understand, and everything is rosey. But Meath are having their worst decade in 100 years so are Galway . Down and Cork are having their worst decade in 70 years. Derry laois Offlay Armagh are having there worst decade in 50 years. Kildare are having their worst decade in 90 years along with the 1980s. All those counties are seen a massive drop off of players. All strong football counties. It is the least competive leinster championship in 130 years. Nothing is wrong, everything is Rosey in the garden as Laois are in divison 4 this year, Derry will be next year and in the last few years Armagh kildare Meath Derry Offaly laois Westhmeath and now Down have spent time in div 3. All the above counties where winning titles not so long ago. Thats unprecdented in the last 40 years. But no everything is grand here, nothing to see. There is an issue and the question is, will it worsen?. What can be done to alter things. A new fairer championship format ? I dont know. But the first thing is to acknowledge there is a problem. And the GAA are definalty not doing anything, and I mean anything to help the current situation. Their proposals eg the Super 8 will probaly worsen instead of helping matters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭ Glenbhoy


    Stoner wrote: »
    Do you have details of 2016 vs 2017 for all league and championship games.

    Derry lost approximately the same number from their 2016 panel as they did in 2017, so that's approx 18/19 players each year. There may be a few from 2016 back this year, but not substantial afaik.
    We have been pretty strong again in recent years at club and underage (minors have fallen to kerry last 3 years in a row), and the numbers do help explain why we've dropped successively from d1 to d4😭.
    I know a few who have left the squad, for them it was a case of 12/13 years on the go, little to show for it but an nfl medal and a string of qualifier wins, huge commitment but little appreciation from our own hypercritical fans. There's no obvious solution, imo it'll only be when the team start achieving some success again that players will be willing to put in the effort required. It also takes resources from county board level to make players feel wanted, that's not always been forthcoming and penny pinching has always been a feature, and one which compares badly with neighbouring counties (albeit they've successful funding vehicles in place).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    Glenbhoy wrote: »
    Derry lost approximately the same number from their 2016 panel as they did in 2017, so that's approx 18/19 players each year. There may be a few from 2016 back this year, but not substantial afaik.
    We have been pretty strong again in recent years at club and underage (minors have fallen to kerry last 3 years in a row), and the numbers do help explain why we've dropped successively from d1 to d4😭.
    I know a few who have left the squad, for them it was a case of 12/13 years on the go, little to show for it but an nfl medal and a string of qualifier wins, huge commitment but little appreciation from our own hypercritical fans. There's no obvious solution, imo it'll only be when the team start achieving some success again that players will be willing to put in the effort required. It also takes resources from county board level to make players feel wanted, that's not always been forthcoming and penny pinching has always been a feature, and one which compares badly with neighbouring counties (albeit they've successful funding vehicles in place).


    That is a serious drop off 18 or 19 players each year. It explains Derrys decline. A great football county with great football people. Hopefully Doire will rise again. But I see the same drop off numbers in my own county I would say approx 12 or 13 two or three seasons ago, and now 16 this year. Cork are the same, look at Offaly also have had massive numbers leaving and so have Wexford. Outside Dublin every team in leinster is seen players leaving in high numbers for different reasons. The chance of sucess is non existent in leinster, players have to train harder then ever before, almost like professionals but with no reward. Its a wonder the numbers are not higher.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭ Glenbhoy


    Sonny678 wrote: »
    That is a serious drop off 18 or 19 players each year. It explains Derrys decline. A great football county with great football people. Hopefully Doire will rise again. But I see the same drop off numbers in my own county I would say approx 12 or 13 two or three seasons ago, and now 16 this year. Cork are the same, look at Offaly also have had massive numbers leaving and so have Wexford. Outside Dublin every team in leinster is seen players leaving in high numbers.
    The drop off in Leinster counties is perhaps understandable given the futility of playing dublin. There's no obvious solution unfortunately (well there is one way of making Leinster competitive, but I don't want to open that can of worms here). In fact, one of the derry players who retired told me he never really recovered from the 2014 league final defeat by dublin.

    One other point, I was involved at a decent level with colleges and clubs during the 90's and whilst there's more technology and probably better training techniques, I don't think the intensity or frequency of training was that much less then than it is now. Granted, your inter county season ended with your first cship defeat, but that aside, the league went from oct to April with a break in the middle, so im not sure the effort required was significantly different way back then. I do think that players now (rightly) realise there's more to life and whilst your sport can be hugely rewarding, you are only young once and have to take the opportunities to travel etc when you get the chance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    Glenbhoy wrote: »
    The drop off in Leinster counties is perhaps understandable given the futility of playing dublin. There's no obvious solution unfortunately (well there is one way of making Leinster competitive, but I don't want to open that can of worms here). In fact, one of the derry players who retired told me he never really recovered from the 2014 league final defeat by dublin.

    One other point, I was involved at a decent level with colleges and clubs during the 90's and whilst there's more technology and probably better training techniques, . Granted, your inter county season ended with your first cship defeat, but that aside, the league went from oct to April with a break in the middle, so im not sure the effort required was significantly different way back then. I do think that players now (rightly) realise there's more to life and whilst your sport can be hugely rewarding, you are only young once and have to take the opportunities to travel etc when you get the chance.

    That is true, there is generational thing going on. The millenials are more likely to change jobs and travel the world more then other generations. Players in 60s 70s 80s and 90s allot of them stayed in the same job and place for life. This current generation are more likely to change job or country then older generations.

    15 years ago players were walking away from division 4 and 3 teams when teams entered the qualifiers. Now its division 2 teams and one or two in division 1. Its a situation thats getting worse. And in ten years time theres a possiblity of a full blown crisis that even GAA HQ will have to take notice of. It might not happen, but the current trends are very worrying and shouldnt be dismissed out of hand.

    Regards training intensity I agree many people like to think fitness has gone through the roof. There is improvements in diet and sport science and players whole physical shape is totally anaylsised. But the players in 80s and 90s were no slouchs eitheir. When they played professional Auzzie rules players in the international rules there fitness should have been an issue , yet the gaelic footballers were well able for the Auzzies and it was always remarked by the Auzzies how surprised they were of the fitness of Irish players.

    Running players up the mountains of Mourne or some hill in Clare for hours with Loughnane roaring his players on was not scientific, but the players were not unfit back then. Look at the record v the Auzzies now and back then. Look at the team that played Austrialia without the Dubs last year and compare it with the team of the late 90s which had D O Se, Moyihan, Whelan, Ryan, MCgeeney, Donnellan, Joyce, Cavanan, Giles, McDermont, Fay , Gerahy, Og De Paor, O'Hara, Nallen, D Dolan, Lochart, Tohill. Which was a better calibre of player last year or a team in late 90s where you had great players from Westhmeath kildare Armagh , Derry, Galway etc. Now if you take out Dublin and Mayo players, the international team looks quite bare. People look at a couple of bad finals on tng of 70s or 80s All Ireland finals and think everything is slow. I remeber great games back then when you had great teams from Cork, Down, Derry, Donegal, Meath, Armagh, Tyrone, laois, Westmeath, Galway, Mayo, kerry, kildare and Offaly. Now we just have Mayo putting it up to Dublin as the 3rd 4th 5th best teams eg Kerry Tyrone Monaghan are hammered out the door. Take Mayo out of this decade and Dublin would be winning finals by double digits.

    The 90s and 00s were more competitive eras . Now you have counties all collectively having their worst decade in generations eg Galway, Cork , Down, Derry, Armagh, Meath, laois, Offaly and kildare . While in the 90s and 00s you had great Cork ( Best Cork team ever ), Down , Derry ( best Derry team ever ) Donegal, Tyrone (Best Tyrone team ever ), Galway ( Best team from Connacht in the last 50 years), Mayo, kerry, Meath, Dublin, Amagh ( Best Armagh team ever ), Kildare (Best kildare team in the last 90 years), louth , laois ( Best laois team in the last 70 years), Offaly (best Offaly team in the last 30 years) ,Westmeath (Best Westmeath team ever ), Cavan ( Best Cavan team in the last 50 years) and Fermanagh teams all enjoying sucess in a 15 year period from 1990 to 2005. From 2006 to 2018 most of the above are eitheir at lows not seen for generations or making little or no impact. Now you have a one of the greatest teams ever in Dublin , a brillant brave Mayo team ( Best Mayo team in 70 years, best team never to win an All Ireland) , Monaghan ( Best Monaghan team in 30 years) Donegal ( Best or second best Donegal team ever) and the poorest Kerry All Ireland winners since independence and thats it folks.

    (kerry are always strong , thats the genius of kerry football, though this has been one of Kerrys least sucessful decades. The All Irelands in 2014 and 1997 ( even tough 97 was so important, they defeated Clare Cavan and Mayo to win Sam) are probaly in the bottom 2 of All Irelands kerry have won in the last 50 years. 52 53 55 59 69 70 wins, 75 78 79 80 81 84 85 86 wins, 2000 to 2004 06 07 09 wins where all better teams then 2014 team. In every decade kerry have produced all time greats 60s eg O Connell, Dwyer 70s 80s eg Sheedy J O Se P Spillane, 90s Moyihan Fitzgerald D O Se 00s Cooper Sullivan T O Se. How many all time great players, best in their position ever have kerry produced since 2010. I would say no kerry debuted since 2010 would b3 considered an all time great. So it has been a poor decade for kerry so far. Still they have still been competitive and strong.)

    And so players r leaving county panels at unprecedented levels . And we are now susposedly in a golden age for football. Yes Dublin are one of the greatest teams ever, and could become the greatest but after that, Dublin will be all this decade will be remmebered for. Unlike the 90s and 00s with Cork Double in 1990, Meath v Dublin 91, Donegal in 92, Down in 91, Derry in 93, Leitrim in 93, Cavan in 97, Galway in 98 , Armagh in 02 , Tyrone in 03, laois in 03 and Westhmeath in 04. Westhmeath win in 04 under Paudi was the last great gaa moment in football that had an romantic appeal to it, where the whole contry were Westmeath supporters for a day, we dont get those magic days anymore in football.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,724 ✭✭✭ nice_guy80


    at least the Dubs played their league games in Parnell Park a few years back and took regular beatings
    Leinster counties are running scared of them in the championship. they just don't have the resources to beat the Dubs - in terms of player numbers and quality, facilities and financial backing

    as someone said, Roscommon are being quoted everywhere here but at least they have won two provinical titles in the last 7/8 years and have been promoted consistently from Division 4 in 2011 up Division 1.
    In 2011 Mayo barely beat them yet a lot of that team fell away.
    You would expect players who are competing for league titles and in with a good chance of provincial honours to want to play on

    what three counties don't have any training centre for teams?
    Roscommon, Westmeath, Longford

    Longford in particular for a small county have had a huge turnover of players


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭ Sonny678


    Stoner wrote:
    I was more interested in any comparison across both competitions.

    Stoner wrote:
    I'd imagine with 33 teams that most would have say 2 or 3 players that have yet to play this year but will by the end of the season. Or am I miles out


    Good point. But sorry I dont have any stats on the above.


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