Inter County player Turnover at Unprecedented Levels

Sonny678

Throughout division 4 3 and 2, players are leaving panels for different reasons at a rate we have never witnessed before in football in recent years. From Cork to Derry from Wexford to Galway, the number of players leaving panels is unprecedented and very worrying. Colm Keys in the Irish Indo recently wrote an article on this matter. He had done research on players who played in last years league and championship in the 32 counties, but did not play any part in this years league whatsoever . The numbers are very revealing.


Players rarely left panels 20 or so years ago. But with the introduction of the qualifiers in the early 00s, we saw players from div 3 and div 4 teams walking away when there team was beaten in the championship and their county undertook the qualifer route. The GAA didnt care. But it set a dangerous precident. For the first time ever many players would leave a panel ( many of them went to US for the summer ) in the championship, in the summer. In the last 5 or 6 years we have seen players leaving panels for many reasons in strong traditional counties , division 2 teams. For example Jamie Clarke possibly the best forward in the country, definatly the best Armagh footballer of his generation. This year and 2 seasons ago he did not commit to the county team. Counties like Cork Down and Meath are all seen a turnover of their panels that were unimaginable 10 years. Its not just division 2, 3 and 4 teams. Some division 1 teams are also facing the same issue. We are now seen players leaving at a level for different reasons we have never seen before in the game nationwide


Anyway here are the stats, the facts. Make of them what u want.
What counties have the lowest number players that have left the panel this year? . Yes the top teams in division 1 have the less player drain.
Below r the number of players who were in played in the league and championship last year for their county but did not resurface in 2018 league for different reasons
1 Tyrone 4 players
2 Monaghan 5 players
3 Dublin 6 players
4 Donegal 6 players
5 Mayo 6 players
Basically 5 of the 6 best teams in the country all sucessful counties, recently have the lowest number of player turnover in the country .
The other division 1 teams numbers are
Kerry 11 players ( Kerry are in transition, and are overhauling their panel. This would be a normal number for a county in transition)
Kildare have 9 and Galway have 10 players who were on last years panel. ( I would say kildare are probaly a division 2 team and while Galway have shown great promise this spring. Until we see those performances repeated in this summer and next year, we will then see Galways true worth . Derry Cork Roscommon and kildare had strong division 1 league campaigns in the last 5 to 6 years , but the championship that followed was very poor for all those counties. ) But overall the top teams in the country, keep their players best. Outside div 1, its a different story altogether, with player turnover at unprecedented levels in the last few years.


We are seen for the first time in the last few years huge players turnover in strong traditional counties eg Cork Down . These counties are having their worst decade in generations . For example this is Meaths worst decade in 100 years, Galways worst decade since 1900 ( their worst decade in 100 years also ) and Down and Cork worst decade in 70 years and Armagh Derry and loais worst decade in 50 years. It is also kildares worst decade in 90 years so far along with the 1980s.
All these counties are reaching all time lows collectively . As Paddy O Rourke said recently players are putting in huge effort but with no sucess on the field. The below stats tell the picture nationwide


Below r the number of players from counties who have were on panels last year, played in the league or championship in 2017 but did not play any role in this years league on the county team or panel.
First we name strong football counties who were successful in the recent past
Roscommon 12 players
Derry 19 players
Cork 18 players
Meath 16 players
Offaly 16 players
Galway 10 players
Down 12 players
Cavan 10 players
Laois 11 players
20 or 15 years ago it would be unimaginable if 12 players were off the Down panel in 12 months or 18 players in Cork. But that is happening now. Do the GAA care?. What happens when players start to leave the Mayos and Kerrys in droves in the future.

Other counties players who participanted in last years league or championship, but did not resurface this year
Leitrim 13 players
London 14 players
Sligo 13 players
longford 12 players
louth 14 players
Westmeath 13 players
Wexford 17 players
Wicklow 15 players
Clare 10 players
limerick 12 players
Antrim 14 players
Armagh 10 players


From a national level. This is very worrying. For nearly all division 2 3 and 4 teams the numbers are huge. There has been a major turnover of players in the last 12 months from Derry to Cork. 22 of the 32 counties have 10 or more players that participated last year but havent this year. More then one in three of every footballers nation wide that was part of their counties panel in the league and championship in 2017 did not resurface in 2018 . Of the 1040 players nationwide who saw action in the league or championship in 2017, 366 have not played so far in 2018. 35 % of the players from all the 32 counties who played last year in the league or champuinship did not resurface in this years league.


This is part and parcel of modern football. Every year now across division 2 3 and 4 and even division 1 counties there is a massive percentage fall off in the inter county game.Do the GAA care? Will the problem get worse?..Or we already nationwide at crisis level?. If the current trend continues in all the counties things will inevitably get worse and worse and we could end up with maybe 1 or 2 counties in the country who will yearly have very little turnver of players. Is that what will happen in 2020s 2030s and 40s?. Time will tell.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

It's a generational thing, I reckon. Millenials are more likely to pack in a job and head off travelling at the age of 25 than the generation before them who might have been married with a mortgage and a young family at that age.

It stands to reason that intercounty GAA players are no different. They put a huge amount of commitment in from a young age and as a result, might feel like they want to see a bit of the world while they have the chance. Many of them seem to be going to the US to play football there and enjoy themselves, but equally, they might be following other pursuits (career, study, etc.)

From a Roscommon point of view, we've lost lads for a variety of reasons, one fella was getting married and starting a new job (I think), another moved to New York to pursue a career in fashion, another is studying medicine. The level of commitment, fitness and professionalism these days for these young lads is so far ahead of what players in the 80s and 90s would have been used to and it's a lot harder for them to juggle it with life outside of GAA. You see it at the highest level with the likes of Lee Chin, Kieran Donaghy etc who, at some stage have decided not to work in order to focus completely on being, essentially, full time GAA players.

rossie1977

I said it many times here in the past but the teams that manage to keep the majority of their best players year in year out are usually the most successful.

For a small county the level of turnover in Roscommon over the past 10-15 years is astonishing. In 2010 Roscommon won the Connacht title and only one player (McDermott) who either started or came on as sub that day played any part in the Connacht final success of last year. What is more glaring is the age profile of that 2010 team which was dominated by Roscommons 2006 winning minors; Domican was 21, Ormsby was 22, Keenan was 21, O'Gara was 22, Cregg was 23, Shine was 21 (all those started), Higgins was 21, Colm Garvey was 21, Paul Garvey was 20. Carty another of the 2006 winning minors, 21 at the time and cathal shine 18 were on the squad that day and would play important roles on the senior team over the next five years were no longer on the squad by 2017 due to varying reasons.

Compare that to Mayo. Of the team that lost to Longford in 2010 qualifiers David Clarke, Chris Barrett, Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins, Donal Vaughan, Kevin McLoughlin, Seamus O’Shea, Andy Moran, Aidan O’Shea, Alan Freeman, Barry Moran, Alan Dillon all started and Tom Parsons came on as sub..all would play major roles in getting Mayo to All-Ireland finals between 2012-17.

We haven't lost as many key players this year it must be said. Only really Cian Connolly of last year's main squad didn't play in the league this year and we lost Sean Mullooly half way through, both are travelling/working in the states this summer. Ronan Stack was injured all year and the 3-4 Glaveys lad were preparing for the intermediate all Ireland final. The others like Brian Murtagh, Tom Featherstone, Colin Compton probably wouldn't have got much game time anyway given Peter Domican, Niall/Conor/Ronan Daly and Cathal Cregg returned to the panel this year.

nice_guy80

rossie1977 wrote: »

I said it many times here in the past but the teams that manage to keep the majority of their best players year in year out are usually the most successful.

For a small county the level of turnover in Roscommon over the past 10-15 years is astonishing. In 2010 Roscommon won the Connacht title and only one player (McDermott) who either started or came on as sub that day played any part in the Connacht final success of last year. What is more glaring is the age profile of that 2010 team which was dominated by Roscommons 2006 winning minors; Domican was 21, Ormsby was 22, Keenan was 21, O'Gara was 22, Cregg was 23, Shine was 21 (all those started), Higgins was 21, Colm Garvey was 21, Paul Garvey was 20. Carty another of the 2006 winning minors, 21 at the time and cathal shine 18 were on the squad that day and would play important roles on the senior team over the next five years were no longer on the squad by 2017 due to varying reasons.

Compare that to Mayo. Of the team that lost to Longford in 2010 qualifiers David Clarke, Chris Barrett, Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins, Donal Vaughan, Kevin McLoughlin, Seamus O’Shea, Andy Moran, Aidan O’Shea, Alan Freeman, Barry Moran, Alan Dillon all started and Tom Parsons came on as sub..all would play major roles in getting Mayo to All-Ireland finals between 2012-17.

We haven't lost as many key players this year it must be said. Only really Cian Connolly of last year's main squad didn't play in the league this year and we lost Sean Mullooly half way through, both are travelling/working in the states this summer. Ronan Stack was injured all year and the 3-4 Glaveys lad were preparing for the intermediate all Ireland final. The others like Brian Murtagh, Tom Featherstone, Colin Compton probably wouldn't have got much game time anyway given Peter Domican, Niall/Conor/Ronan Daly and Cathal Cregg returned to the panel this year.

No employment in Roscommon
Mayo has that option

Sonny678

nice_guy80 wrote:

No employment in Roscommon Mayo has that option

Donegal and Monaghan have low turnover of players, Monaghan and particularly Donegal have issues with lack of employment, yet they have some of the lowest numbers of player leaving panels in the country. Its complicated but sucessful teams hold on to their players better.

Sonny678

But it must be said counties are sucessful then the players stay. But its not the players staying to make the county sucesful. That might not make sense. Its the counties r sucessful and the players stay.

Take Donegal its not that players said we are staying that turned Donegal around, it was the appointment of a brillant charismatic innovative manager Jimmy MCGuiness , who captured the players and counties imagination similar to how loughnane did with Clare in 95 or Griffin dis with Wexford in 96 or Heffernan with Dublin in 74.

Monaghan have a brillant underated manager in Malachy O Rourke who is after McGuiness and Galvin the best manager this decade. Also Monaghan have their best set of players in 30 years.

Dublin have a golden generation of players backboned by excellent managers and coachs, a vibrat club scene and ever growing population where Dublin GAA senior teams huge popularity will lead to more and more youngsters wanting to play for the Dubs, Even Meath and kildare have become football nurserys for future Dublin footballers.

Mayo have produced quality footballers and top class managers for the last 15 years. If All Ireland medals where given out for bravey this current Mayo team would have a few All Irelands by now. But whats driving Mayo to 4 All Ireland finals in 6 years, which has never happened before ( A county losing 4 finals in 6 years). To keep coming back is remarkable and you have to admire their bravery. But its become so important to Mayo people to win Sam. Its like the county, the players, the fans are on a crusade to win Sam. In that so many times you hear Mayo fans ' before I die I want to see Mayo win Sam'. It means so much to Mayo people. Winning Sam would mean more to them then any other county. Its become a counties dream, almost obession to end the famine and break the curse. Thats what driving these brave Mayo footballers. I think if Mayo had won in 2012 or 13 they wouldnt have reached the last 2 finals. I know its hard to prove. But Mayo quest for Sam is being driven by the passion and hunger of a county desire to win an All Ireland that has become so important to every man woman and child in Mayo. Very admirable passion.

kerry are always strong , thats the genius of kerry football, though this has been one of Kerrys least sucessful decades. The All Irelands in 2014 and 1997 ( even tough 97 was so important, they defeated Clare Cavan and Mayo to win Sam) are probaly in the bottom 2 of All Irelands kerry have won in the last 50 years. 52 53 55 59 69 70 wins, 75 78 79 80 81 84 85 86 wins, 2000 to 2004 06 07 09 wins where all better teams then 2014 team. In every decade kerry have produced all time greats 60s eg O Connell, Dwyer 70s 80s eg Sheedy J O Se P Spillane, 90s Moyihan Fitzgerald D O Se 00s Cooper Sullivan T O Se. How many all time great players, best in their position ever have kerry produced since 2010. I would say no kerry debuted since 2010 would b3 considered an all time great. So it has been a poor decade for kerry so far. Still they have still been competitive and strong.
Tyrone have produced teams in 80s 90s 00s and this decade that where all contenders for Sam. Before 80s Tyrone where div 3 county. But with underage sucess good planning and great management they have become a serios power in the last 40 years. Even though I think the teams of 80s 90s and of course 00s are stronger then the current outfit.

So all the counties above have been sucessful for different reasons . The players then stay in sucessful outfits and the sucess continues. However if the current thread continues players leaving panels in the majority of divsion 1 teams will be an issue in the next 10 years or so. Then the GAA might sit up and take notice again. When we have All Ireland semi final like we did in 1982 when 15000 people turned up to see Kerry v Armagh. The Super 8s are going to make things much worse for div 2 3 and 4 teams. If a team make the last 8 outside div 1 the chances of three massive hammerings at the hands of div 1 teams will set those teams back big time. The GAA dont seem to care that there is a massive exodus of players from county panels in this decade the like we have never seen before.

Sonny678

The stats are from Irish Independent. When I first read them I was shocked at how widespread and high numbers are throughout the country particularly leinster. This is leinsters worst decade ever in terms of competitiveness. Compared to the late 90s a golden age, where you had 4 top division 1 teams in the provience all winning titles eg All Ireland leinster national league division 1. Even the 00s was much more competitive with it been Westmeath laois and kildares ( along with 90s) best decade in generations. Even in Meath we declined in 00s we still defeated Kerry Dublin Tyrone Mayo and Galway in the championship. We havent beaten 1 top division 1 team in the championship this decade so far. Players leaving leinster panels and panels nationwide is a serious negative thread. But as Paddy O Rourke said, your putting in so much effort with little or no return.

Sonny678

i just want to show the actual number of players and panels and numbers below altogether. I think that alone shows how widespread players leaving panels. For nearly all division 2 3 and 4 teams the numbers are huge, anything over 10 is a high number, 22 counties have over ten players.


Below r the number of players who played in the league and championship last year 2017 for their county but did not resurface in 2018 league for different reasons


Derry 19 players
Cork 18 players
Wexford 17 players
Offaly 16 players
Meath 16 players
Wicklow 15 players
Antrim 14 players
London 14 players
louth 14 players
Leitrim 13 players
Westmeath 13 players
Sligo 13 players
longford 12 players
Down 12 players
Roscommon 12 players
limerick 12 players
Kerry 11 players
Laois 11 players
Clare 10 players
Cavan 10 players
Galway 10 players
kildare 9 players
Dublin 6 players
Donegal 6 players
Mayo 6 players
Monaghan 5 players
Tyrone 4 players

Of the 1040 players nationwide who saw action in the league or championship in 2017, 366 have not played so far in 2018.

ebbsy

A lot of it is due to the demands made on these players. They are happy just to play for their clubs.

What's the point in busting your nadgers for a couple of championship games ? Get a holiday or go travelling instead.

Stoner

Do you have details of 2016 vs 2017 for all league and championship games.

PARlance

Sonny678 wrote: »

Donegal and Monaghan have low turnover of players, Monaghan and particularly Donegal have issues with lack of employment, yet they have some of the lowest numbers of player leaving panels in the country. Its complicated but sucessful teams hold on to their players better.

Don't think it's too complicated tbh. As you say, successful teans hold onto their players better. That makes a lot of sense.

As for Roscommon, I don't know what's up with them but it's a bit of a shambles. It's not as if they've been lacking underage talent over the last while, getting them in a County jersey seems a much harder task than it should be or is elsewhere.

Sonny678

PARlance wrote: »

Don't think it's too complicated tbh. As you say, successful teans hold onto their players better. That makes a lot of sense.

As for Roscommon, I don't know what's up with them but it's a bit of a shambles. It's not as if they've been lacking underage talent over the last while, getting them in a County jersey seems a much harder task than it should be or is elsewhere.

What about strong traditional sucessful counties like the below ?, many of them have as much underage sucess as Roscommon

Derry 19 players
Cork 18 players ( Cork have loads of underage talent)
Offaly 16 players
Meath 16 players
Down 12 players
Galway 11 players ( Galway have loads of underage talent)
Cavan 10 players ( Cavan have loads of underage talent)
kildare 9 players (Kildare have loads of underage talent)

rossie1977

Donegal had won just one game in Ulster since 2006 when they lost to Antrim in 2009, yet the bulk of that team like the bulk of the Mayo team who lost to Sligo/Longford in 2010 remained http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/northern_ireland/the_championship/8098820.stm

In many counties that wouldn't have happened, players would become disillusioned or management would lose faith in the players that failed to perform when expected. Yes a manager plays a big role but if mcguinness can't convince the likes of McGee. Lacey, Gallagher, McFadden, Hegarty etc to continue on all his managerial know how isn't going to get Donegal probably out of Ulster in 2011-12.

PARlance

Sonny678 wrote: »

What about strong traditional sucessful counties like the below ?, many of them have as much underage sucess as Roscommon

Derry 19 players
Cork 18 players ( Cork have loads of underage talent)
Offaly 16 players
Meath 16 players
Down 12 players
Galway 11 players ( Galway have loads of underage talent)
Cavan 10 players ( Cavan have loads of underage talent)
kildare 9 players (Kildare have loads of underage talent)

You're looking at stats from 1 year in isolation which isn't a great place to be looking from. You really need to look at historic churn over the past 20 years or so to see the trends.
It does look very high but there are plenty of reasons go to explain it imo:

1. Way more demands on players reduces the years some will / can put it.
2. Much bigger squads, the turnover probably comes from peripheral players I would assume. Mayo have used about 50 players since Sept iirc.
3. Extended season, lesser County players have little to play for in qualifers. In days gone by, they could have headed off and enjoyed the summer and come back refreshed for next years Championship match. A pointless slog for some. In yesteryear, they may have given the County 10 or so years (with all Summer off) but now they're not getting that Summer off and hard to stay around for as long.

Re Roscommon, as Rossie1977 has been saying, this high turnover has been happening for the last 10-15 years. It's very noticeable and worse than any other County I would imagine. Rossie1977 might have some reasons for it, as an oitsider I would say it probably comes down to a combination of 3 main things... Players attitude / mentality, Managerial appointments, County Board.

Sonny678

Stoner wrote: »

Do you have details of 2016 vs 2017 for all league and championship games.

No I dont have all the exact details of 2016 v 2017, but the numbers this year is very similar to the percentage fall off from year to year in the last few years in the inter county game.

rossie1977

PARlance wrote: »

Re Roscommon, as Rossie1977 has been saying, this high turnover has been happening for the last 10-15 years. It's very noticeable and worse than any other County I would imagine. Rossie1977 might have some reasons for it, as an oitsider I would say it probably comes down to a combination of 3 main things... Players attitude / mentality, Managerial appointments, County Board.

Probably hit the nail on head there. I would add injuries and basically being worn out to the list. That group of all ireland winning minors from 2006 were playing football non stop year round from club, sigerson, minor, under 21, league and championship. Its no surprise that the three remaining members of that squad still on senior county panel took time off from football.

Sonny678

PARlance wrote: »

You're looking at stats from 1 year in isolation which isn't a great place to be looking from. You really need to look at historic churn over the past 20 years or so to see the trends.
It does look very high but there are plenty of reasons go to explain it imo:

1. Way more demands on players reduces the years some will / can put it.
2. Much bigger squads, the turnover probably comes from peripheral players I would assume. Mayo have used about 50 players since Sept iirc.
3. Extended season, lesser County players have little to play for in qualifers. In days gone by, they could have headed off and enjoyed the summer and come back refreshed for next years Championship match. A pointless slog for some. In yesteryear, they may have given the County 10 or so years (with all Summer off) but now they're not getting that Summer off and hard to stay around for as long.

Re Roscommon, as Rossie1977 has been saying, this high turnover has been happening for the last 10-15 years. It's very noticeable and worse than any other County I would imagine. Rossie1977 might have some reasons for it, as an oitsider I would say it probably comes down to a combination of 3 main things... Players attitude / mentality, Managerial appointments, County Board.

The number of players which left this year runs a very close line to the percentage fall off from year to year in this decade in the inter county game.

There is definatly a trend occuring, is it a player drain? Well compared to 20 years ago, 19 players didnt leave a Derry panel over a year or 12 players leave a Down panel or 18 players didnt leave a Cork football panel 20 years ago. And I know for a fact that 16 players didnt leave a Meath panel over a year, 20 or 10 years ago.

The breakdown in terms of players leaving each division is
Division 1 66 players
Division 2 103 players
Divsion 3 107 players
Division 4 94 players
Division 2 and 3 are the divisions with the biggest drop off of players.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

No I dont have all the exact details of 2016 v 2017, but the numbers this year is very similar to the percentage fall off from year to year in the last few years in the inter county game.

I was more interested in any comparison across both competitions.

I'd imagine with 33 teams that most would have say 2 or 3 players that have yet to play this year but will by the end of the season. Or am I miles out

PARlance

Sonny678 wrote: »

The number of players which left this year runs a very close line to the percentage fall off from year to year in this decade in the inter county game.

There is definatly a trend occuring, is it a player drain? Well compared to 20 years ago, 19 players didnt leave a Derry panel over a year or 12 players leave a Down panel or 18 players didnt leave a Cork football panel 20 years ago. And I know for a fact that 16 players didnt leave a Meath panel over a year, 20 or 10 years ago.

The breakdown in terms of players leaving each division is
Division 1 66 players
Division 2 103 players
Divsion 3 107 players
Division 4 94 players
Division 2 and 3 are the divisions with the biggest drop off of players.

I guess I'm just not as surprised or alarmed by this change as you are, everthing has changed dramatically in 20 years.

We've established that successful Counties have relatively low churn. That makes sense it it was probably always the case.

So if we look at unsuccessful Counties, what has changed in 20 years?
In short, an awful lot more commitment is required for longer periods but with the same return as 20 years ago, i.e nothing really in terms of success.

To use a simplistic example:
Player A played for Leitrim in 1997, he played a bit of College football for the craic, he wouldn't have been doing anywhere near the amount of County training for the League and he probably put in 6 hard weeks before losing his one and only Championship game in May. Straight on the plane to Boston.
Sipping pints regularly metric: 10/12 months a year (if not 11.5)

Player A20 played for Leitrim in 2017, was training hard since September in a very professional College set up. Added to that, he would have had a lot of County commitments with hard training for the League. Straight into Championship training after and living clean until finally being dumped out of the Championship in mid-July against Carlow...
Sipping pints metric: He doesn't drink, he allows himself a few packs of Tatyo every August.

Both end up with nothing (but pride). It's not that hard to see why player A might stick with it for longer.

Sonny678

PARlance wrote: »

You're looking at stats from 1 year in isolation which isn't a great place to be looking from. You really need to look at historic churn over the past 20 years or so to see the trends.
It does look very high but there are plenty of reasons go to explain it imo:

1. Way more demands on players reduces the years some will / can put it.
2. Much bigger squads, the turnover probably comes from peripheral players I would assume. Mayo have used about 50 players since Sept
.

No the players are not peripheral , they are players who played some part in a competitive game in the league or championship in 2017

The total number players used in 2017 in the league and championship / The number of players who didnt return this year

Galway 33 / 11 did not return
Leitrim 37/ 13 did not return
London 31 / 14 did not return
Roscommon 32/ 12 did not return
Sligo 32 / 13 did not return
Kildare 33 / 9 did not return
Laois 34 / 11 did not return
longford 29 / 12 did not return
louth 33 / 14 did not return
Offaly 35 / 16 did not return
Meath 37/ 16 did not return
Westmeath 33 / 13 did not return
Wexford 32 / 17 did not return
Clare 27 / 10 did not return
Cork 35 / 18 did not return
Kerry 35/ 11 did not return
Limerick 29 / 12 did not return
Antrim 33 / 14 did not return
Armagh 32 / 10 did not return
Cavan 34 / 10 did not return
Derry 37/ 19 did not return
Down 33 / 12 did not return

Mayo 34/ 6 did not return
Dublin 35/ 6 did not return
Donegal 31 / 6 did not return
Monaghan 30/ 5 did not return
Tyrone 31 / 4 did not return

Sonny678

PARlance wrote: »

I guess I'm just not as surprised or alarmed by this change as you are, everthing has changed dramatically in 20 years.

We've established that successful Counties have relatively low churn. That makes sense it it was probably always the case.

So if we look at unsuccessful Counties, what has changed in 20 years?
In short, an awful lot more commitment is required for longer periods but with the same return as 20 years ago, i.e nothing really in terms of success.

To use a simplistic example:
Player A played for Leitrim in 1997, he played a bit of College football for the craic, he wouldn't have been doing anywhere near the amount of County training for the League and he probably put in 6 hard weeks before losing his one and only Championship game in May. Straight on the plane to Boston.
Sipping pints regularly metric: 10/12 months a year (if not 11.5)

Player A20 played for Leitrim in 2017, was training hard since September in a very professional College set up. Added to that, he would have had a lot of County commitments with hard training for the League. Straight into Championship training after and living clean until finally being dumped out of the Championship in mid-July against Carlow...
Sipping pints metric: He doesn't drink, he allows himself a few packs of Tatyo every August.

Both end up with nothing (but pride). It's not that hard to see why player A might stick with it for longer.

I was thinking to myself when you said you werent alarmed , I said to meself I betcha hes from Dublin Mayo Donegal Monaghan one of the top sucessful counties recently. It seems you are a Mayo man, Well If the trend continues this could be what is coming down the track for you guys and for the Mayo and Monaghan brillant current teams when they come to their natural end of a life cycle, theres a possiblity you will see drop off rates similar to the above occur in both counties which will continue for years. If 18 players can leave Cork, 19 players leave Derry , 16 players can leave Meath and 12 players can leave Down all within 12 months. That would have been unthinkable in Cork in 2010 when they won Sam, the same way it would have been unthinkable in 2010 when Down reached All Ireland final , the same way it would have been unthinkable in 2010 when Meath hammered Dublin by 5 goals . If this trend continues you might have Dublin and 1 or 2 other counties with litttle drop off of players and the rest are hitting the 20 player mark . Its a possibitly.

PARlance

Considering the Championship hasn't started yet... It's a little soon to be stating players didn't return. At a minimum, like with like should be compared and look at the figures when Championship has been played. The numbers will change for sure.

The "did not return" is a little alarmist too. Players get dropped. Players retire.

And yes, I imagine that most of the churn (outside of retirements) happens on the periphery... i.e lads who might get some League time but aren't or won't ever be cut out for Championship. They are replaced (rather than them "not returning") by others who are given a chance the next year.

I haven't heard of too many Managers saying they can't fill a squad (McStay has made comments about Roscommon but that is unique imo as mentioned previously) but you just seem set on throwing out poorly constructed stats in a "the sky is falling down" manner.

The best measure would be to compare it on a Championship only basis imo.

Have you any insight into it yourself that you will share? Or is the sky just falling down?

megadodge

PARlance wrote: »

Considering the Championship hasn't started yet... It's a little soon to be stating players didn't return. At a minimum, like with like should be compared and look at the figures when Championship has been played. The numbers will change for sure.

The "did not return" is a little alarmist too. Players get dropped. Players retire.

And yes, I imagine that most of the churn (outside of retirements) happens on the periphery... i.e lads who might get some League time but aren't or won't ever be cut out for Championship. They are replaced (rather than them "not returning") by others who are given a chance the next year.

I haven't heard of too many Managers saying they can't fill a squad (McStay has made comments about Roscommon but that is unique imo as mentioned previously) but you just seem set on throwing out poorly constructed stats in a "the sky is falling down" manner.

The best measure would be to compare it on a Championship only basis imo.

Have you any insight into it yourself that you will share? Or is the sky just falling down?

At last, a common sense post on a complete non-event. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

In extended panels, early in the year players are tried out in the league who will never be next to close to making the championship team. It has always happened, but with bigger panels now more are tried, hence more not required come crunch time. It's simple maths.

Roscommon are being quoted left, right and centre here, but from their championship run last year, off the top of my head only Cian Connolly and Sean Mulloolly are not on this year's panel. Mulloolly will almost certainly be back. The figure of 12 is completely misleading. The three Dalys and Cathal Cregg actually returned to the panel this year, all very good players three of whom will almost certainly be involved in the championship, but of course four fringe players had to make way for their return.

Mountain. Molehill.

Sonny678

PARlance wrote: »

Considering the Championship hasn't started yet... It's a little soon to be stating players didn't return. At a minimum, like with like should be compared and look at the figures when Championship has been played. The numbers will change for sure.

The "did not return" is a little alarmist too. Players get dropped. Players retire.

And yes, I imagine that most of the churn (outside of retirements) happens on the periphery... i.e lads who might get some League time but aren't or won't ever be cut out for Championship. They are replaced (rather than them "not returning") by others who are given a chance the next year.

I haven't heard of too many Managers saying they can't fill a squad (McStay has made comments about Roscommon but that is unique imo as mentioned previously) but you just seem set on throwing out poorly constructed stats in a "the sky is falling down" manner.

The best measure would be to compare it on a Championship only basis imo.

Have you any insight into it yourself that you will share? Or is the sky just falling down?

Of course players retire or dropped from panels. Its normal, teams comes to the end of its natural cycle eg Kerry have to rebuild at the moment. But there does seem to something occuring that is beyond the normal process of players leavin panels.

The comment above I made that you questioned that players "did not return" is the truth. 19 players did not return for Derry this year and 18 for Cork. Its not alarmist , its a fact. An unsettling fact, but a fact all the same.

Of course you will get players to fill up panel numbers, theres always someone that will play inter county, but the problem is you might be picking the 3rd best full back in the county because the other two best full backs have left the panel.

Allot of those players that have left aint returning for the championship. Take Meath 16 have left , none of them will be coming back this year . Some are in the USA for work, others left for college, others went back to hurling. But in the words of Paddy O Rourke recently, he said players are putting in incredible work every year with little sucess to show for it. Thats whats happening. Meath overhauled their panel in the seasons 2014 to 2015. 2 to 3 years later the Meath panel was completely overhauled again with 11 players drafted into panel at the start of the season who had never played for Meath before. Now that is unprecedented for a county like Meath to overhaul its panel in such a short time. Down and Cork have done the same. We talking about 3 counties who are in the top 5 most sucessful counties in the country, who after kerry Dublin and Galway would be the three most sucessful consitently over the last 80 years. Those three counties won between them 8 All Irelands in 12 years not to long ago. Now 19 players are leaving the Cork set up, at a time when Cork are having their worst period since the 1950s. That was the last time Cork were in division 2 and defeated by Tipp and uncompetitive v Kerry. This is Meaths worst decade since 1920s and Downs worst decade since they appeared on the scene in the 60s.

Something is occuring, one can ignore it, but then it will get worse. Its not just Paddy O Rourke other players are saying the effort and time taken up by inter county player and the rewards at the end of the day or season are an issue.

Take ur own county Mayo. When this brillant team break up , you will have to overhaul the panel. If you look what happened in Meath Cork Down Derry or Armagh , Mayo could follow the same path. Monaghan the same. We could end having competitive Dublin and Kerry and thats it. It might not happen, I cannot read the future, but I can see in my own county which is a football mad county with a great traditon that players are drifting at unprecedented levels and its the same occurence in other strong football strongholds.

You can ignore it. But there is an issue of player drain. The question is has it peaked or will it worsen. But one thing is for sure the GAA HQ couldnt give two ****s about whats happening at the moment. But if it happens where we end up in All Ireland semi final similar to 1982 when 15000 turned up then they will care, as the money / revenue will plumment. And the super 8 will not help matters whatsoever, it will worsen matters as any young up coming team like Tipp in 2016 , when a young up and coming team reach the super 8 they are looking at 3 massive hammering v top div 1 teams. And another group of players drop off and another overhaul of the county panel occurs. What if no shouts stop .

Sonny678

megadodge wrote: »

At last, a common sense post on a complete non-event. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

In extended panels, early in the year players are tried out in the league who will never be next to close to making the championship team. It has always happened, but with bigger panels now more are tried, hence more not required come crunch time. It's simple maths.

Roscommon are being quoted left, right and centre here, but from their championship run last year, off the top of my head only Cian Connolly and Sean Mulloolly are not on this year's panel. Mulloolly will almost certainly be back. The figure of 12 is completely misleading. The three Dalys and Cathal Cregg actually returned to the panel this year, all very good players three of whom will almost certainly be involved in the championship, but of course four fringe players had to make way for their return.

Mountain. Molehill.

Comments like that remind me of people predicting the property crash in 2008. And others spouting Oh no it will be grand, nothing to see here, and then its full blown crisis.

It is getting worse. You can ignore , or fail to understand, and everything is rosey. But Meath are having their worst decade in 100 years so are Galway . Down and Cork are having their worst decade in 70 years. Derry laois Offlay Armagh are having there worst decade in 50 years. Kildare are having their worst decade in 90 years along with the 1980s. All those counties are seen a massive drop off of players. All strong football counties. It is the least competive leinster championship in 130 years. Nothing is wrong, everything is Rosey in the garden as Laois are in divison 4 this year, Derry will be next year and in the last few years Armagh kildare Meath Derry Offaly laois Westhmeath and now Down have spent time in div 3. All the above counties where winning titles not so long ago. Thats unprecdented in the last 40 years. But no everything is grand here, nothing to see. There is an issue and the question is, will it worsen?. What can be done to alter things. A new fairer championship format ? I dont know. But the first thing is to acknowledge there is a problem. And the GAA are definalty not doing anything, and I mean anything to help the current situation. Their proposals eg the Super 8 will probaly worsen instead of helping matters.

Glenbhoy

Stoner wrote: »

Do you have details of 2016 vs 2017 for all league and championship games.

Derry lost approximately the same number from their 2016 panel as they did in 2017, so that's approx 18/19 players each year. There may be a few from 2016 back this year, but not substantial afaik.
We have been pretty strong again in recent years at club and underage (minors have fallen to kerry last 3 years in a row), and the numbers do help explain why we've dropped successively from d1 to d4😭.
I know a few who have left the squad, for them it was a case of 12/13 years on the go, little to show for it but an nfl medal and a string of qualifier wins, huge commitment but little appreciation from our own hypercritical fans. There's no obvious solution, imo it'll only be when the team start achieving some success again that players will be willing to put in the effort required. It also takes resources from county board level to make players feel wanted, that's not always been forthcoming and penny pinching has always been a feature, and one which compares badly with neighbouring counties (albeit they've successful funding vehicles in place).

Sonny678

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Derry lost approximately the same number from their 2016 panel as they did in 2017, so that's approx 18/19 players each year. There may be a few from 2016 back this year, but not substantial afaik.
We have been pretty strong again in recent years at club and underage (minors have fallen to kerry last 3 years in a row), and the numbers do help explain why we've dropped successively from d1 to d4😭.
I know a few who have left the squad, for them it was a case of 12/13 years on the go, little to show for it but an nfl medal and a string of qualifier wins, huge commitment but little appreciation from our own hypercritical fans. There's no obvious solution, imo it'll only be when the team start achieving some success again that players will be willing to put in the effort required. It also takes resources from county board level to make players feel wanted, that's not always been forthcoming and penny pinching has always been a feature, and one which compares badly with neighbouring counties (albeit they've successful funding vehicles in place).

That is a serious drop off 18 or 19 players each year. It explains Derrys decline. A great football county with great football people. Hopefully Doire will rise again. But I see the same drop off numbers in my own county I would say approx 12 or 13 two or three seasons ago, and now 16 this year. Cork are the same, look at Offaly also have had massive numbers leaving and so have Wexford. Outside Dublin every team in leinster is seen players leaving in high numbers for different reasons. The chance of sucess is non existent in leinster, players have to train harder then ever before, almost like professionals but with no reward. Its a wonder the numbers are not higher.

Glenbhoy

Sonny678 wrote: »

That is a serious drop off 18 or 19 players each year. It explains Derrys decline. A great football county with great football people. Hopefully Doire will rise again. But I see the same drop off numbers in my own county I would say approx 12 or 13 two or three seasons ago, and now 16 this year. Cork are the same, look at Offaly also have had massive numbers leaving and so have Wexford. Outside Dublin every team in leinster is seen players leaving in high numbers.

The drop off in Leinster counties is perhaps understandable given the futility of playing dublin. There's no obvious solution unfortunately (well there is one way of making Leinster competitive, but I don't want to open that can of worms here). In fact, one of the derry players who retired told me he never really recovered from the 2014 league final defeat by dublin.

One other point, I was involved at a decent level with colleges and clubs during the 90's and whilst there's more technology and probably better training techniques, I don't think the intensity or frequency of training was that much less then than it is now. Granted, your inter county season ended with your first cship defeat, but that aside, the league went from oct to April with a break in the middle, so im not sure the effort required was significantly different way back then. I do think that players now (rightly) realise there's more to life and whilst your sport can be hugely rewarding, you are only young once and have to take the opportunities to travel etc when you get the chance.

Sonny678

Glenbhoy wrote: »

The drop off in Leinster counties is perhaps understandable given the futility of playing dublin. There's no obvious solution unfortunately (well there is one way of making Leinster competitive, but I don't want to open that can of worms here). In fact, one of the derry players who retired told me he never really recovered from the 2014 league final defeat by dublin.

One other point, I was involved at a decent level with colleges and clubs during the 90's and whilst there's more technology and probably better training techniques, . Granted, your inter county season ended with your first cship defeat, but that aside, the league went from oct to April with a break in the middle, so im not sure the effort required was significantly different way back then. I do think that players now (rightly) realise there's more to life and whilst your sport can be hugely rewarding, you are only young once and have to take the opportunities to travel etc when you get the chance.

That is true, there is generational thing going on. The millenials are more likely to change jobs and travel the world more then other generations. Players in 60s 70s 80s and 90s allot of them stayed in the same job and place for life. This current generation are more likely to change job or country then older generations.

15 years ago players were walking away from division 4 and 3 teams when teams entered the qualifiers. Now its division 2 teams and one or two in division 1. Its a situation thats getting worse. And in ten years time theres a possiblity of a full blown crisis that even GAA HQ will have to take notice of. It might not happen, but the current trends are very worrying and shouldnt be dismissed out of hand.

Regards training intensity I agree many people like to think fitness has gone through the roof. There is improvements in diet and sport science and players whole physical shape is totally anaylsised. But the players in 80s and 90s were no slouchs eitheir. When they played professional Auzzie rules players in the international rules there fitness should have been an issue , yet the gaelic footballers were well able for the Auzzies and it was always remarked by the Auzzies how surprised they were of the fitness of Irish players.

Running players up the mountains of Mourne or some hill in Clare for hours with Loughnane roaring his players on was not scientific, but the players were not unfit back then. Look at the record v the Auzzies now and back then. Look at the team that played Austrialia without the Dubs last year and compare it with the team of the late 90s which had D O Se, Moyihan, Whelan, Ryan, MCgeeney, Donnellan, Joyce, Cavanan, Giles, McDermont, Fay , Gerahy, Og De Paor, O'Hara, Nallen, D Dolan, Lochart, Tohill. Which was a better calibre of player last year or a team in late 90s where you had great players from Westhmeath kildare Armagh , Derry, Galway etc. Now if you take out Dublin and Mayo players, the international team looks quite bare. People look at a couple of bad finals on tng of 70s or 80s All Ireland finals and think everything is slow. I remeber great games back then when you had great teams from Cork, Down, Derry, Donegal, Meath, Armagh, Tyrone, laois, Westmeath, Galway, Mayo, kerry, kildare and Offaly. Now we just have Mayo putting it up to Dublin as the 3rd 4th 5th best teams eg Kerry Tyrone Monaghan are hammered out the door. Take Mayo out of this decade and Dublin would be winning finals by double digits.

The 90s and 00s were more competitive eras . Now you have counties all collectively having their worst decade in generations eg Galway, Cork , Down, Derry, Armagh, Meath, laois, Offaly and kildare . While in the 90s and 00s you had great Cork ( Best Cork team ever ), Down , Derry ( best Derry team ever ) Donegal, Tyrone (Best Tyrone team ever ), Galway ( Best team from Connacht in the last 50 years), Mayo, kerry, Meath, Dublin, Amagh ( Best Armagh team ever ), Kildare (Best kildare team in the last 90 years), louth , laois ( Best laois team in the last 70 years), Offaly (best Offaly team in the last 30 years) ,Westmeath (Best Westmeath team ever ), Cavan ( Best Cavan team in the last 50 years) and Fermanagh teams all enjoying sucess in a 15 year period from 1990 to 2005. From 2006 to 2018 most of the above are eitheir at lows not seen for generations or making little or no impact. Now you have a one of the greatest teams ever in Dublin , a brillant brave Mayo team ( Best Mayo team in 70 years, best team never to win an All Ireland) , Monaghan ( Best Monaghan team in 30 years) Donegal ( Best or second best Donegal team ever) and the poorest Kerry All Ireland winners since independence and thats it folks.

(kerry are always strong , thats the genius of kerry football, though this has been one of Kerrys least sucessful decades. The All Irelands in 2014 and 1997 ( even tough 97 was so important, they defeated Clare Cavan and Mayo to win Sam) are probaly in the bottom 2 of All Irelands kerry have won in the last 50 years. 52 53 55 59 69 70 wins, 75 78 79 80 81 84 85 86 wins, 2000 to 2004 06 07 09 wins where all better teams then 2014 team. In every decade kerry have produced all time greats 60s eg O Connell, Dwyer 70s 80s eg Sheedy J O Se P Spillane, 90s Moyihan Fitzgerald D O Se 00s Cooper Sullivan T O Se. How many all time great players, best in their position ever have kerry produced since 2010. I would say no kerry debuted since 2010 would b3 considered an all time great. So it has been a poor decade for kerry so far. Still they have still been competitive and strong.)

And so players r leaving county panels at unprecedented levels . And we are now susposedly in a golden age for football. Yes Dublin are one of the greatest teams ever, and could become the greatest but after that, Dublin will be all this decade will be remmebered for. Unlike the 90s and 00s with Cork Double in 1990, Meath v Dublin 91, Donegal in 92, Down in 91, Derry in 93, Leitrim in 93, Cavan in 97, Galway in 98 , Armagh in 02 , Tyrone in 03, laois in 03 and Westhmeath in 04. Westhmeath win in 04 under Paudi was the last great gaa moment in football that had an romantic appeal to it, where the whole contry were Westmeath supporters for a day, we dont get those magic days anymore in football.

nice_guy80

at least the Dubs played their league games in Parnell Park a few years back and took regular beatings
Leinster counties are running scared of them in the championship. they just don't have the resources to beat the Dubs - in terms of player numbers and quality, facilities and financial backing

as someone said, Roscommon are being quoted everywhere here but at least they have won two provinical titles in the last 7/8 years and have been promoted consistently from Division 4 in 2011 up Division 1.
In 2011 Mayo barely beat them yet a lot of that team fell away.
You would expect players who are competing for league titles and in with a good chance of provincial honours to want to play on

what three counties don't have any training centre for teams?
Roscommon, Westmeath, Longford

Longford in particular for a small county have had a huge turnover of players

Sonny678

Stoner wrote:

I was more interested in any comparison across both competitions.

Stoner wrote:

I'd imagine with 33 teams that most would have say 2 or 3 players that have yet to play this year but will by the end of the season. Or am I miles out

Good point. But sorry I dont have any stats on the above.

Tombo2001

PARlance wrote: »

Don't think it's too complicated tbh. As you say, successful teans hold onto their players better. That makes a lot of sense.

As for Roscommon, I don't know what's up with them but it's a bit of a shambles. It's not as if they've been lacking underage talent over the last while, getting them in a County jersey seems a much harder task than it should be or is elsewhere.

A particular case in point with Roscommon is that they dont have a sponsor. Whereas say Monaghan has Investec.

A good sponsor that brings in 10k or 20k for the county team - there's a lot of feelgood in having nice gear or nice training or changing facilities.

The Monaghan GAA Centre of Excellence is open 10 years now; and its a very impressive place from what I've seen.

This helps to keep players interested.

And is also more generally a reason why the GAA is performing so well compared to soccer in this country.

Tombo2001

Sonny678 wrote: »

You can ignore it. But there is an issue of player drain. The question is has it peaked or will it worsen. But one thing is for sure the GAA HQ couldnt give two ****s about whats happening at the moment. But if it happens where we end up in All Ireland semi final similar to 1982 when 15000 turned up then they will care, as the money / revenue will plumment. And the super 8 will not help matters whatsoever, it will worsen matters as any young up coming team like Tipp in 2016 , when a young up and coming team reach the super 8 they are looking at 3 massive hammering v top div 1 teams. And another group of players drop off and another overhaul of the county panel occurs. What if no shouts stop .

Question there might be...

Perhaps there was always a high churn rate, but actually what has changed is the best teams are keeping a strong squad together for longer.

Does Meath have a higher churn rate now than 40 years ago? Say in the 1970s....I am guessing they did not have the same players year in year out.

Going back to Paddy O'Rourke's comments.....a big advantage that Dublin has, and Mayo.....is that while the guys in Kildare or Roscommon might follow exactly the same training regime as the Dublin guys, the Dublin guys havent just done it this year - they did it last year, the year before, the year before...and that accumulates over time and you cant replicate that in a hurry.

Sonny678

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Question there might be...

Perhaps there was always a high churn rate, but actually what has changed is the best teams are keeping a strong squad together for longer.

Does Meath have a higher churn rate now than 40 years ago? Say in the 1970s....I am guessing they did not have the same players year in year out.

Going back to Paddy O'Rourke's comments.....a big advantage that Dublin has, and Mayo.....is that while the guys in Kildare or Roscommon might follow exactly the same training regime as the Dublin guys, the Dublin guys havent just done it this year - they did it last year, the year before, the year before...and that accumulates over time and you cant replicate that in a hurry.

Yes Meath does have a higher churn out rate then say even 10 years ago. I would say Cork Down Derry Armagh also have a high churn out rate. Every time I see Meath play Down Derry or Cork , they all seem to have new teams , a pile of new players every year. It seems to me the overhauling of panels is much more frequet then ever before and the numbers are very high. Derry losing 19 players this year and 19 last year, thats basically nearly two panels of players lost in 24 months.

Meath overhauled the panel in 2013 to 2015, however this year again another massive overhaul, where 11 players were brought onto the panel this spring who never played for Meath before. The overhaul in 2013 to 2015 was a normal one, with the late 00s team breaking up. Every county nearly has to overhaul their panel every ten years or so. Meath are always in transition in the mid part of the decade, always strong at the end part of the decade eg 1949, 1967, 1987, 1988, 1996, 1999, 2007, 2009. Meath team peaks in these years with leinster and All Ireland wins. Meath then decline at the start of a decade as the county team gets olders and decline eg All Ireland final loses in 1951, 1970, 1990, 1991, 2001. Then the team breaks up in the early years of the decade which is always a bad time for Meath eg hammered by Dublin in 1961, first round defeats in 1971 1972, 1981 (Wexford), 1982 (longford), 1992 ( Laois) and bad defeats in 2002 ( Donegal) , 2011 ( Kildare).

Meath are always in transition in the mid part of decade which sees bad defeats v Dublin 1955, laois 1985, Dublin 1995, Cavan 2005, Dublin 2014, Westmeath 2015. So Meath should be stronger now. But instead we have had our second overhaul of a panel in three years, I can never remeber that happening in Meath football in the last 35 years.

Teams do go through ten year periods of rebuilding , eg Donegal are always and only sucessful at the start of a decade . For example first Ulster title in 1972, second Ulster title in 1983, First All Ireland in 1992, Second All Ireland in 2012. Tipp hurlers are also nearly always sucessful at the start of a decade eg All Ireland wins in 1971, 1991, 2001, 2010. Only 2016 and 1989 deviated from the above wins in the last half century. So every teams should be overhauling their panel every ten years or so. Not every two years which is happening in Meath Derry Down Laois Offaly Armagh and Cork recently.

I cannot get my hands on exact numbers but here is some of the examples of players leaving hurling and football panels this year in 2018 after the league in recent weeks.

1 Yesterday Kieran Barret one of Waterfords best young hurlers left the Waterford senior hurling panel. His brother David Bennet had left the hurling panel earlier in the year.

2 Peter Kelly left the Dublin senior hurling panel last weekend.

3 Jack Guiney left the Wexford senior hurling panel 1 week ago.

4 Brendan Murphy left Carlow football panel 8 days ago.

5 Liam Silke left the Galway senior football panel last week and Cillian McDaid left Galway senior panel since the league ended. Two of Galways best young defenders.

6 Ben McCormack and Eoin Powderly left kildare senior football panel in April after the league this year. Ben McCormack is one of kildares best forwards.

7 Michael Carroll, Eoin McHugh and Peter Boyle have left the Donegal senior football panel recently.

8 Bonny Duggan, Gearoid O Connell and T O Connell have left Clare senior hurling panel recently.

9 Padraig Rath, Patrick Reilly , Conall McKeever and James Stewart have left the louth senior football panel recently.

10 Sean Toibin, Brian Conlon, Harry Rooney and possibly Padraig Mckeever ( some say he has, other says he hasnt ) have left the Meath senior football panel since the league ended.

11 Two players have left Roscommon panel since the league ended, but I dont know their names.

While I have heard players have left Laois footballers and hurlers and Derry and Wexford footballers since the league ended.

That is just a sample of some of players who have left since the league ended.

bucketybuck

I'm curious why the list you've quoted a number of times only includes 27 teams, where did it come from and why does it not include all teams?

I noticed mainly because it doesn't seem to include Fermanagh, a team that already had small numbers but has famously been hemorrhaging players this past few years.

You have to bare this in mind. They played Mayo last year and should have beaten them in Castlebar. But of that team that played against Mayo, only six are available. Of that fifteen that started that Mayo team, only six are available for this weekend.

There’s a picture that caught my eye last week at the press event in the Fermanagh training ground. It was the panel of the All-Ireland quarter-final against Dublin in 2015. Of that picture, 20 people - 20 people! - out of the panel are gone. Now Dublin couldn’t sustain that kind of player loss, but for Fermanagh it seems to be an annual thing, they just basically lose three quarters of their panel and start all over again.”

Sonny678

bucketybuck wrote:

I'm curious why the list you've quoted a number of times only includes 27 teams, where did it come from and why does it not include all teams?

bucketybuck wrote:

I noticed mainly because it doesn't seem to include Fermanagh, a team that already had small numbers but has famously been hemorrhaging players this past few years.

Sorry about that. The stats come from the Irish Independent.
And I missed out on a couple of counties 3 counties who have the lowest turnover in div 2 3 and 4.
Fermanagh Tipp and Carlow have all had 7 non returnees this year. The 3 lowest counties in div 2 3 and 4. Fermanagh 30/ 7, Carlow 30/ 7 and Tipp 31/ 7. I was concentrating on counties with high turnover , I left out those three. I know ur saying Fermanagh have been losing players in the last few years. But this year they had lowest non returnees in division 3 where Derry lost 19, Offaly lost 16, Wexford lost 17, Westmeath 13, and longford 12 .

bucketybuck

Sonny678 wrote: »

Sorry about that. The stats come from the Irish Independent.
And I missed out on a couple of counties 3 counties who have the lowest turnover in div 2 3 and 4.
Fermanagh Tipp and Carlow have all had 7 non returnees this year. The 3 lowest counties in div 2 3 and 4. Fermanagh 30/ 7, Carlow 30/ 7 and Tipp 31/ 7. I was concentrating on counties with high turnover , I left out those three. I know ur saying Fermanagh have been losing players in the last few years. But this year they had lowest non returnees in division 3 where Derry lost 19, Offaly lost 16, Wexford lost 17, Westmeath 13, and longford 12 .

I didn't know their figures for this year, thanks.

I have to say that even if it is a low figure relative to other counties, when you consider how many were lost in the 3 years previous losing 7 more players this year is still quite a high figure really. When a county replaces almost their entire squad over such a short time you would expect that rate of change/loss to stabilise, as the new players are still settling in and haven't yet burned out on intercounty football.

That there are still so many losses speaks to a deeper issue.

megadodge

Sonny678 wrote: »

Comments like that remind me of people predicting the property crash in 2008. And others spouting Oh no it will be grand, nothing to see here, and then its full blown crisis.

It is getting worse. You can ignore , or fail to understand, and everything is rosey. But Meath are having their worst decade in 100 years so are Galway . Down and Cork are having their worst decade in 70 years. Derry laois Offlay Armagh are having there worst decade in 50 years. Kildare are having their worst decade in 90 years along with the 1980s. All those counties are seen a massive drop off of players. All strong football counties. It is the least competive leinster championship in 130 years. Nothing is wrong, everything is Rosey in the garden as Laois are in divison 4 this year, Derry will be next year and in the last few years Armagh kildare Meath Derry Offaly laois Westhmeath and now Down have spent time in div 3. All the above counties where winning titles not so long ago. Thats unprecdented in the last 40 years. But no everything is grand here, nothing to see. There is an issue and the question is, will it worsen?. What can be done to alter things. A new fairer championship format ? I dont know. But the first thing is to acknowledge there is a problem. And the GAA are definalty not doing anything, and I mean anything to help the current situation. Their proposals eg the Super 8 will probaly worsen instead of helping matters.

And your relentless, very, very very long-winded pessimism reminds me of those poor people who sold up all they had and went off to a cult to commit suicide because Jim Jones told them the world was going to end.

Well it didn't.

I remember when all the talk was about how Kerry and Dublin had ruined football. They won every All-Ireland between 1974 and 1986 except for Offaly's in 1982.

Well football wasn't ruined. It went on. And got better. A lot better!!

What figures exactly is the always truthful and reliable Irish Independent comparing the current figures to? Oh yeah, they aren't! They just throw up these figures when it's that time of year that they've nothing to write about. I wonder will Martin Breheny bring out his old reliable 'they should make a goal worth 4 points to encourage more attacking play' one of these days. He's been spouting it since the 1980s. Why change? If they compared like with like we could argue, but of course they don't. That mightn't help the narrative they're trying to create.

As I already mentioned, the figure of 12 players gone from Roscommon includes only TWO of the last year's first team, one of whom is almost certain to return next year. Decent club players are brought onto extended county panels every year to try them out in the hope they might unearth 1 or 2 actual county players. The rest aren't needed, hence they leave/are dropped.

While I'm at it, the notion that the 2014 Kerry team wasn't as good as any of the All-Ireland winning Kerry teams of the 1950s is just ludicrous. Youtube and TG4's All-Ireland Gold has been an utter nightmare for bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything was so much better back in the good old days" we can now see exactly how "good" they were and they never stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

Isn't it remarkable how sentimentalists always wax lyrical about the old days exclusively in sports where you cannot actually measure the performances? I wonder is it because any sport where you can measure, the performances have consistently improved?

Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!
Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

Sonny678

megadodge wrote: »

And your relentless, very, very very long-winded pessimism reminds me of those poor people who sold up all they had and went off to a cult to commit suicide because Jim Jones told them the world was going to end.

Well it didn't.

I remember when all the talk was about how Kerry and Dublin had ruined football. They won every All-Ireland between 1974 and 1986 except for Offaly's in 1982.

Well football wasn't ruined. It went on. And got better. A lot better!!

What figures exactly is the always truthful and reliable Irish Independent comparing the current figures to? Oh yeah, they aren't! They just throw up these figures when it's that time of year that they've nothing to write about. I wonder will Martin Breheny bring out his old reliable 'they should make a goal worth 4 points to encourage more attacking play' one of these days. He's been spouting it since the 1980s. Why change? If they compared like with like we could argue, but of course they don't. That mightn't help the narrative they're trying to create.

As I already mentioned, the figure of 12 players gone from Roscommon includes only TWO of the last year's first team, one of whom is almost certain to return next year. Decent club players are brought onto extended county panels every year to try them out in the hope they might unearth 1 or 2 actual county players. The rest aren't needed, hence they leave/are dropped.

While I'm at it, the notion that the 2014 Kerry team wasn't as good as any of the All-Ireland winning Kerry teams of the 1950s is just ludicrous. Youtube and TG4's All-Ireland Gold has been an utter nightmare for bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything was so much better back in the good old days" we can now see exactly how "good" they were and they never stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

Isn't it remarkable how sentimentalists always wax lyrical about the old days exclusively in sports where you cannot actually measure the performances? I wonder is it because any sport where you can measure, the performances have consistently improved?

Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!
Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

Your pretty very long winded yourself.
Sorry for my below very very very long winded messages, but I do have allot of evidence against your arguements.

1 Most people consider that Dublin and Kerry saved football. Prior to kerry v Dublin football populairty was on the wane. In 1974 there is little or no TV footage whatsoever of the All Ireland semi final Dublin v reigning All Ireland champions Cork. Because the Dublin RDS horse show was on at the same time. RTE only had cameras and equipment to cover 1 sports event at the time. The horse show in the RDS was seen as more important and people would want to see the Dublin horse show more then an All Ireland semi final in 1974 . So RTE sent their cameras to the record the horse show and not an All Ireland semi final. Thats how far GAA was down the list of peoples attention in early 70s. Within 3 to 4 years Kerry and Dublin had captured the attention of the nation and the popularity of gaelic football grew and grew. And since 1974 there has been tv cameras at every All Ireland semi final since. Modern GAA , begins with Kerry v Dublin in the 70s, they brought colour to the GAA, dragged the association into modern world.

2 The fact is players are leaving in high numbers . If you don think there is a problem its your perogative. But Im not alone in thinking and saying there is p a roblem . There is thousands of GAA people like me in Meath Derry Down Cork Laois Armagh Kildare Offaly Wexford and other counties ( Fermanagh Sligo Limerick Leitrim) who believe there is an issue as they see players leaving on mass year after year, as all these counties collectively have their worst period in generations.

3 I saw great games in the past eg Down v Derry 94, Meath v Kildare 97, Meath v Down 91 and many more. People watch a couple of bad finals in the 70s and 80s on tng 4 and take these couple of bad finals as examples to say football was crap back then. I have been going to Croke Park since 1982, and havent missed a leinster final since 1982, and I can tell you from personal experience that I saw with my own eyes , not because I saw it on you tube, but because I was there, there was great players and great games in the past. What about the bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything is so much better now then in the bad old days", I saw the so called bad old days. And if players like Matt Connor of Offaly was still around today , he would still be the best footballer in Ireland by a mile.

Sonny678

megadodge wrote: »

And your relentless, very, very very long-winded pessimism reminds me of those poor people who sold up all they had and went off to a cult to commit suicide because Jim Jones told them the world was going to end.

Well it didn't.

I remember when all the talk was about how Kerry and Dublin had ruined football. They won every All-Ireland between 1974 and 1986 except for Offaly's in 1982.

Well football wasn't ruined. It went on. And got better. A lot better!!

What figures exactly is the always truthful and reliable Irish Independent comparing the current figures to? Oh yeah, they aren't! They just throw up these figures when it's that time of year that they've nothing to write about. I wonder will Martin Breheny bring out his old reliable 'they should make a goal worth 4 points to encourage more attacking play' one of these days. He's been spouting it since the 1980s. Why change? If they compared like with like we could argue, but of course they don't. That mightn't help the narrative they're trying to create.

As I already mentioned, the figure of 12 players gone from Roscommon includes only TWO of the last year's first team, one of whom is almost certain to return next year. Decent club players are brought onto extended county panels every year to try them out in the hope they might unearth 1 or 2 actual county players. The rest aren't needed, hence they leave/are dropped.

While I'm at it, the notion that the 2014 Kerry team wasn't as good as any of the All-Ireland winning Kerry teams of the 1950s is just ludicrous. Youtube and TG4's All-Ireland Gold has been an utter nightmare for bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything was so much better back in the good old days" we can now see exactly how "good" they were and they never stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

Isn't it remarkable how sentimentalists always wax lyrical about the old days exclusively in sports where you cannot actually measure the performances? I wonder is it because any sport where you can measure, the performances have consistently improved?

Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!
Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

I see you didnt say the 2014 team where better then Kerry teams of 00s ( Cooper T O Se), 90s ( Fitzgerald Moyihan) 80s and 70s (P O Se J O Shea O Keefe , Spillane, Sheedy, Egan) . At least you know the 2 in row Kerry teams of the 69 70 and 06 07 and the three in a row and 4 in a row teams of the 70s and 80s are better teams then kerrys 2014 team.
But ask anyone in Kerry and they will tell the Kerry team of the 50s , had some of the greatest kerry players ever and some of the greatest footballers ever . Not one player Kerry player have debuted since 2010 would be considered a truly all time great Kerry player, a player that would be considered the best player in their position ever. In the 50s kerry had all time great players like O Connell, Dywer , Murphy, Long and Lyne

GREAT KERRY PLAYER FROM THE 50S/ GAA LEGENDS

Mick O Connell ( considered to be one of the greatest midfielders of all time ) He was voted at midfield on the GAA team of the century and GAA team of the millenium. Would David Moran or Paul Geaney achieve this acolade. Mick O Connell is simply a legend in his own life time.One of the most celebrated and famous gaelic footballers ever.

Sean Murphy. Considered one of the greatest kerry defenders and one of the greatest defenders in the history of the game. He was voted left half back on the team of the century and the team of the millenium . Many Kerry fans to this say Murphy was the most stylish footballer that every played in the green and gold of Kerry. Sean Murphy is one of the few single individuals to have an All Ireland directly associated with his name for the 1959 final is referred to as the "Sean Murphy final".

Mick Dwyer - Mick Dwyer is considered one of the greatest forwards kerry ever produced. Dywer won 4 All Ireland senior titles and 12 Munster football senior titles as a player. He is one of the few handful of players in history who won All Irelands as player in 3 decades.

Tom Long is considered in the kingdom as one of the greatest of all Kerry players. Ask any true kerry supporter and they will tell you Long would walk on any Kerry side of any era.

Tadghie Lyne is described in Kerry as "The Prince of Forwards" to this very day . Lyne is considered in the Kingdom as one of the finest scoring forwards of all time.

The Kerry team of the 50s was mananaged by for many the first real great gaa manager or coach Dr Eamonn O'Sullivan. Sullivan trained to Kerry to 8 senior All Ireland titles. Only Dwyer is considered a better manager in kerry football. Sullivan was seen as a visionary and ahead of his time. No one in Kerry would place Eamon Fitzmaurice ahead of Dr. Sullivan as a coach or manager , with Fitzmaurice 1 All Ireland title to Sullivans 8 titles.

Also that Kerry team won 3 All Irelands 1953 1955 and 1959 compared to the one gained this decade. Only for been beating by a great Meath team in 54 final they would have won 3 in a row in the early 50s. The 40s and 50s were a golden age for football. You had the greatest Mayo team ever 50 51 , the greatest louth team ever 57 , greatest Roscommon team ever 43 44 ,and one of the greatest teams ever the Cavan team 47 48 52.
You also had a great Meath team 49 54 , a great Galway team 56 and the first proper great Dublin team led by Kevin Heffernan in 1958. The first Dublin team to win All Irelands with players all from Dublin. In the 40s and 50s you also strong teams from Kildare Carlow Wexford Antrim Cork and Laois. The 50s to this day in kerry is callled "The Golden Fifties" because it is so fondly remebered and considered a golden age of kerry football, because so many all time great kerry players come from the era.

Sonny678

megadodge wrote: »

And your relentless, very, very very long-winded pessimism reminds me of those poor people who sold up all they had and went off to a cult to commit suicide because Jim Jones told them the world was going to end.

Well it didn't.

I remember when all the talk was about how Kerry and Dublin had ruined football. They won every All-Ireland between 1974 and 1986 except for Offaly's in 1982.

Well football wasn't ruined. It went on. And got better. A lot better!!

What figures exactly is the always truthful and reliable Irish Independent comparing the current figures to? Oh yeah, they aren't! They just throw up these figures when it's that time of year that they've nothing to write about. I wonder will Martin Breheny bring out his old reliable 'they should make a goal worth 4 points to encourage more attacking play' one of these days. He's been spouting it since the 1980s. Why change? If they compared like with like we could argue, but of course they don't. That mightn't help the narrative they're trying to create.

As I already mentioned, the figure of 12 players gone from Roscommon includes only TWO of the last year's first team, one of whom is almost certain to return next year. Decent club players are brought onto extended county panels every year to try them out in the hope they might unearth 1 or 2 actual county players. The rest aren't needed, hence they leave/are dropped.

While I'm at it, the notion that the 2014 Kerry team wasn't as good as any of the All-Ireland winning Kerry teams of the 1950s is just ludicrous. Youtube and TG4's All-Ireland Gold has been an utter nightmare for bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything was so much better back in the good old days" we can now see exactly how "good" they were and they never stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

Isn't it remarkable how sentimentalists always wax lyrical about the old days exclusively in sports where you cannot actually measure the performances? I wonder is it because any sport where you can measure, the performances have consistently improved?

Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!
Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

You said "Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!"

Wrong

1 1900 to 1910 Kildare won 1 All Ireland senior and 1 leinster title , better decade then now

2 1910 to 1920 Kildare won 1 All Ireland senior and 1 leinster senior title better decade then current one for kildare

3 In the 1920s, Kildare won 2 All Ireland senior titles and 6 leinster senior titles , a better decade then the current one for kildare

4 In the 1930s Kildare won 3 leinster senior titles, they have won none in this decade

5 In the 1940s kildare played in 2 leisnter finals and stayed most of the decade in division 1, in this decade kildare have only played in 1 leinster final and have been relegated three times in the last 5 years. The 40s was better decade for kildare football then the current one.

6 In the 1950s kildare won 1 leinster senior football title, they have won none in this decade. Kildare reached national league Division 1 final in 1958. They havent reached any Division 1 National league final in this decade . So the 50s was a more sucessful decade for kildare football then this decade

7 In the 1960s Kildare reached 2 leinster senior finals compared to 1 leinster final appearance in this decade. kildare also reached a National League Division 1 final in 1968 , they havent reached National league divsion 1 final since 1991. And in the 60s , in 1965 kildare won their first and only under 21 All Ireland title. kildare also won 3 under 21 leinster titles in a row in the 60s. kildares most sucessful period in Under 21 football ever. Again the 60s was a better decade for kildare then the current decade.

8 In the 1970s kildare played in 4 leinster senior football finals. Compared to 1 in this decade. Kildare also reached their only All Ireland minor final ever in 1973 and won 2 leinster minor titles and 2 leinster under 21 titles in the 70s. The 70s kildare team are considered in kildare as the best kildare team after the 90s team in the last 60 years . They had great rivalry with Offaly at the start of the 70s and kildare where very unlucky not to win leinster title in early 70s.

9 And the 90s is the most sucessful period since the 20s with 1 leinster senior title and 1 All Ireland senior final appearance. The 00s is also better then the current decade with 1 leisnter senior title and their only victory over Dublin in 90 years in a leinster senior final occured in the 00s.

I said in my original post kildare worst decades were the 80s and this decade. In the 80s kildare reached no leisnter senior finals and were in divsion three . Kildare lost to Kilkenny footballers in Byrne cup match at the end of the 80s. Thats kildares worst decade since 1920s. The next worst is the current one.

10 In this decade kildare have reached only 1 leinster final. They have had 3 relegations in 5 years. They currently have lost 10 games in a row. They have lost their last 6 games in Croke Park in the last 3 years. They havent won a match in Croke Park in the championship in 5 years. They have only won in Croke Park 3 times in the championship in this decade. They have lost their last 35 of their last 40 matchs in Croke Park. They havent won a leinster senior semi final in Croke Park in 9 years since 2009.

11 And they have had some of the worst defeats in their history in the last decade, record defeats to Dublin and Kerry. Two defeats v Dublin recently are their two worst defeats in the leinster championship in 100 years for kildare football. kildares 19 point defeat to Dublin in 2015 is kildares worst defeat to Dublin since 1897 ( Dublin 5 -18 Kildare 0-14) . The 7 goal hammering v Kerry in 2015 is the worst defeat for kildare in the championship outside leinster in 100 years ( Kerry 7 -16 Kildare 0-10). Other bad defeats (Cork 2-19 0-12 in 2012).
( In terms of the leinster senior championship, the stats show kildare are not the second most sucessful team in the leinster championship in this decade which most people would probaly believe. They are the fourth. Dublin r number 1 of course with 7 senior titles, Meath r second with 4 leinster final appearances and 1 title, Westmeath have 2 leinster final appearances and kildare have 1 leinster final appearances along with Louth who also have 1.)

So because of all the above evidence one can say kildare were more sucessful in 1920s, 30s , 40s, 50s, 60s,70s, 90 and 00s then the current decade.
Apologies to any kildare supporters with bringing up the results, but Im just trying to show why I said this decade and the 80s is kildare worst decade since 1920s. It is also Meaths worst decade since the 1920s, if Meath dont reach an All Ireland in the next 2 years it will be first decade since 1920s that has happened. Meaths lose to Dublin in 2014 is Meath worst lose to Dublin since the 1920s. There was bad loses in 95 ( but Meath were ahead with ten mins to go), early 60s and 1955 ( but that Meath team was overhil in 55 after winning the final with the oldest team ever in 54) . 2014 was first time in hundred years a Meath v Dublin match was over by half time.

Sonny678

megadodge wrote: »

Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

Yes Monaghan have their best team in 30 years . But the Monaghan team of 1985 which drew with Kerry the greatest team ever in an All Ireland semi final in 85 is considered their best team ever.

Donegal have had a great decade. But people forget what a great achievement it was for Donegal to win in 92. It would be like Sligo beating Dublin in an All Ireland final in 5 years time. Donegal had only won 4 Ulster titles up to 1991, their first ever was in 1972. When Donegal defeated Mayo in the All Ireland semi final in 1992 it was Donegals first ever win in Croke Park in the championship ever, the final was their second win ever. Teams like Donegal from Ulster and Connacht did not beat Dublin before 1992. Donegal showed counties like Derry Tyrone and Armagh that you could beat the Dublin and kerrys and win your first All Ireland. That All Ireland win was a landmark All Ireland win and the team of 2012 would not have won if the men in 1992 did not break down the door for Donegal teams. I believe that Donegal team in 92 is their best ever. But I wouldnt argue to much if someone said 2012 team was. The 2012 team won a tough All Ireland in that year beating Tyrone , Kerry, Cork and Mayo.

Most people believe it takes a great team to place two All Irelands back to back. So it is strange for you to say a team that has won no All Irelands is better then a team that won 2 All Irelands. Runner up teams are not usually considered better then mutiple championship winning teams. You must then believe yourself that the Atletico Madrid team that lost two European cup finals recently are a better team then AC Milan that won two in row European cups in the 90s. Being a Roscommon fan you must then consider Roscommons only All Irelands in 43 and 44 as worthless if you dont rate Mayo team in 50 51.
The fact is most true Mayo gaa supporters would consider the 50 51 team as GAA legends and the greatest Mayo team ever. The same the way the Roscommon team of 43 44 with men like Murry are GAA legends and the greatest Roscommon team ever and one of the best to cross the Shannon.

In this decade your talking about Tipp Galway and Roscommon and what they going to do. Maybe they will, but there is also a possiblitly they wouldnt. It does show you the how uncompetitive this decade is when you have to talk about what teams are going to do, not what have they done. Unlike teams in the 90s and 00s who actually won titles. I will show the diffference in the 90s 00s and below,

But firstly until Galway perform in the championship like they have in the league there will be question marks. In the last 6 years Cork Roscommon Kildare and Derry had similar sucessful division 1 campaigns to Galway, but they followed up with dreadful championships in the summer. And Cork Derry and Kildare have not really recovered since. Galway havent won a match in Croker in the championship in 17 years. If Galway dont reach an All Ireland final in the next two years it would be the first time since independence as Galway have reached finals in 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s. Galway havent reached even a semi final in this decade the first time in 100 years. So Galway have a few hurdles to jump before they suceed. They will have to beat probaly Dublin kerry or top division 1 teams outside Connacht to suceed. Galway havent beaten Kerry in the champioship in 53 years, Galway havent beaten Dublin in the championship in over 90 years and Galway have only beaten top division 1 teams outside Connacht in the championship 5 times in the last 50 years eg v Offaly 73, v Derry 98, v Kildare 98 , v Armagh 01 and v Meath 01. In comparsion Mayo have beaten top division 1 teams outiside Connacht many many times in the last 20 years eg V Kerry 96, V Dublin 05, V Cork 11, V Dublin 12, V Donegal 13, V Tyrone 16, V Kerry 17 and I have left others out probaly. So Galway have to start to win like they did in the league in the the next two summers and then they are real contenders and overcome quite a few hurdles.

Compare this decade to 90s and 00s .
This Decade

1 Dublin One of the greatest teams ever, could become the greatest ever
2 Mayo The best never to never win an All Ireland , and the most sucessful Mayo team of the last 70 years
3 The best or second best Donegal team ever
4 Best Monaghan team in the last 30 years
5 The poorest Kerry All Ireland winners in 50 years ( Along with 97 team who had to beat Clare Cavan and Mayo to win Sam, even though 97 was an important win for kerry)
And then a couple of teams who might win something in the future and thats it

1990s

1 The Greatest Cork Team ever
2 A great Meath
3 The best Down team of the last 50 years
4 The best or second best Donegal team ever
5 The Best Leitrim team of the last 90 years
6 The best Clare football team in 90 years
7 The most sucessful Mayo team in 40 years from 1952 to 1996 -1997
8 The greatest Derry team ever
7 The best team from Connacht in 50 years, One of Galways greatest teams ever
8 The Best and most sucessful Cavan team in the last 50 years
9 The best Offaly team in the last 30 years
10 The best and most sucessful Kildare team in 90 years

And other teams who were competitive at different levels eg Tyrone 95 96 the first team from Ulster to put Ulster senior titles back to back in 20 years, louth reached 6 leinster semi finals in a row in the 90s.

The 00s
1 The greatest Tyrone team ever and possilbly the best team from Ulster in 50 years
2 The greatest Armagh team ever
3 One of the greatest teams to come from Kerry
4 The greatest Westhmeath team ever
5 The best and most sucessful Laois team in 70 years
6 The best Sligo team in 30 years and one of the greatest teams to ever come out of Sligo
7 The best and most sucessful Wexford team in 70 years
8 One of the most sucessful and best teams to come out of Fermanagh
9 The best Mayo team up to then along with 90s since 50s. This Mayo team was more sucessful then any Mayo team in 80s,70s,60s and most of the 50s
10 Kildare most sucessful team since 20s
And you also had competitive teams at different levels in Derry Donegal Cork Meath Limerick in this period.

Anyone who looks at the three eras in an unbiased would have to say there is a difference between the amount of great team in the 90s and 00s and the current decade. Take leinster ,. In the late 90s you had 4 top division 1 teams winning titles. Most leinster teams have been in div 3 and 4 during this decade. Even in the 70s you had 4 top divsion 1 teams in leinster. With Dublin of course, kildare reaching 4 leinster finals, Offaly winning two All Irelands and Meath beating Dublin in national league div 1 final and could have beaten Dublin in 74, should have in 76 and how they didnt in 77 it is a mystery when they dominated the second half and kicked wide after wide. Simply put this is currently the most uncompetitive leinster championship in 130 years.

megadodge

Sonny678, you could save yourself an awful, awful lot of typing if you just read my posts a little more carefully.

You don't seem to differentiate between 'successful' and 'better'. I do.

The 1950/51 Mayo teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.
The early 20th century Kildare teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.
The 1943/44 Roscommon teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.

Those are facts. I never claimed otherwise.


You seem to be of the opinion (note that word) that any team that won an All-Ireland in any decade is better than any modern team that hasn't. So, if we were magically able to transport both teams in a time machine, the older team would always beat the modern team? For your own credibility I really hope you don't believe that!

You spoke of how great the All-Ireland winning teams in the 1950s were. All of them! And how they are better than the 2014 All-Ireland winning Kerry team. Seriously?

Let's make a quick comparison. The winning times in the 1952 & 1956 Olympic 100m wouldn't even QUALIFY the winner for the 2016 Olympics. And by some considerable distance. But they were 'better' than people who would beat them by least 10 metres?

But of course that's a sport where progress can be proved - so it doesn't count! We're only interested in arguing over sports where nothing can be proven. What a bloody coincidence!

titan18

How many Cork players from last year's stats play for Nemo, cos none of them played for Cork so far this year cos of the AI clubs. I'd imagine you might have similar cases for Slaughtneil, Corofin and Moorefield.

klairondavis

titan18 wrote: »

How many Cork players from last year's stats play for Nemo, cos none of them played for Cork so far this year cos of the AI clubs. I'd imagine you might have similar cases for Slaughtneil, Corofin and Moorefield.

There were no Moorefield representatives on last year's Kildare panel.

megadodge

Players that have played for Kerry since 2010 that in any right-minded person's head will be considered 'great' - Colin Cooper, Marc O'Se, Tomas O'Se, Declan O'Sullivan, Kieran Donanghy, Paul Galvin, Tom O'Sullivan and maybe even Aidan O'Mahoney.

It's kind of hard to replace these fellas - because they're great! So it's very hard to break into a team containing so many great players, meaning there's a much smaller chance of a new batch of great players coming on the scene until those lads retired.

How many 'great' players made their debut for Kerry after 1980 until 1987? At a stretch Tom Spillane.

But they were replaced eventually. Be patient.

megadodge

Donegal have had a great decade. But people forget what a great achievement it was for Donegal to win in 92. It would be like Sligo beating Dublin in an All Ireland final in 5 years time. Donegal had only won 4 Ulster titles up to 1991, their first ever was in 1972. When Donegal defeated Mayo in the All Ireland semi final in 1992 it was Donegals first ever win in Croke Park in the championship ever, the final was their second win ever. Teams like Donegal from Ulster and Connacht did not beat Dublin before 1992. Donegal showed counties like Derry Tyrone and Armagh that you could beat the Dublin and kerrys and win your first All Ireland. That All Ireland win was a landmark All Ireland win and the team of 2012 would not have won if the men in 1992 did not break down the door for Donegal teams. I believe that Donegal team in 92 is their best ever. But I wouldnt argue to much if someone said 2012 team was. The 2012 team won a tough All Ireland in that year beating Tyrone , Kerry, Cork and Mayo.

What an utter load of tosh!!

You're comparing that Donegal team to the current Sligo team in terms of their relative standing? A Donegal team crammed with players from two separate All-Ireland winning U21 teams? A Donegal team that were Ulster champions two years previously and gave a great Meath team what Liam Hayes described at the time 'the toughest game he ever played in'? I personally thought Donegal left that game behind them.

And you're comparing that team's standing to Sligo????

Sonny678

megadodge wrote:

Sonny678, you could save yourself an awful, awful lot of typing if you just read my posts a little more carefully.

megadodge wrote:

You don't seem to differentiate between 'successful' and 'better'. I do.

megadodge wrote:

The 1950/51 Mayo teams were more successful than their modern counterparts. The early 20th century Kildare teams were more successful than their modern counterparts. The 1943/44 Roscommon teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.

megadodge wrote:

Those are facts. I never claimed otherwise.

megadodge wrote:

You seem to be of the opinion (note that word) that any team that won an All-Ireland in any decade is better than any modern team that hasn't. So, if we were magically able to transport both teams in a time machine, the older team would always beat the modern team? For your own credibility I really hope you don't believe that!

megadodge wrote:

You spoke of how great the All-Ireland winning teams in the 1950s were. All of them! And how they are better than the 2014 All-Ireland winning Kerry team. Seriously?

megadodge wrote:

Let's make a quick comparison. The winning times in the 1952 & 1956 Olympic 100m wouldn't even QUALIFY the winner for the 2016 Olympics. And by some considerable distance. But they were 'better' than people who would beat them by least 10 metres?

megadodge wrote:

But of course that's a sport where progress can be proved - so it doesn't count! We're only interested in arguing over sports where nothing can be proven. What a bloody coincidence!

Sports is about titles. Do Spurs supporters think the current Spurs team r better then 1961 Double winning team. Answer No. coz winners of titles are considered better then a team cannot win a title.
If Liverpool lose the champions league final in May. Will that team be considered a better team the pool teams which won the European cup in 77 78 81 84 . No they wouldnt and no Liverpool will agree they will. In the words of Abba the winners takes it all. So I could give you a million more examples , I disagree 110%. Thats it. Its your prerogative to disagee and im free to disagree u.

You are on about fitness how fast someone can run. Some people think that because there is better sports science today, players have less body fat means they are better players. Anyone can become fit pretty much. But kicking a point from distance, fielding a ball, kicking accurate scores from tight angles with left and right foot, defending well, the art of defending ( which the blanket defence has destroyed with the exception of Dublin and Mayo defenders the lack of great defenders is obvious compared to 90s and 00s eg Scullion Fay O Malley Moyihan Lockart Barr Heery Curran Ryan Og De Paor McGeeney O Connell Canty Lynch O Ses Gormley McMemanin Nallen Christie to name but a few, Im sure u will disagree).

Anyone can become fit pretty much but inate football ability, technique, football skills , character and temperament are all skills that u eitheir have or dont. And players like Sean Purcell or Jack O Shea or Sean O Neill, if they were around today they would still be the best footballers in Ireland because of their inate football ability, skills, techniques winning mentality, temperament and character.

In soccer Pele is still considered the greatest soccer player ever. Other greats like Cruyff Maradona Best are all considered all time greats. If you said to an English supporters that John Stone was a better defender then Bobby Moore they would laugh in your face.
If you said to any English fan that any English international soccer team since 2000 was better then the World Cup winners off 66, they would see such comments as insulting .

If we take your way of thinking then you must consider Anthony Joshua a better heavyweight boxer then Muhammad Ali. There is no boxing expert in the world who would agree. Joe Lewis hasnt fought for 80 years yet he would be considered a greater heavyweight boxer then any boxer in this decade.
The Brazil of 1970 is considered the best soccer team ever.

I can go on and on. Greatness is measured by many means not just how much sports science has advanced and you have and how fast you can sprint. Im not the only one who believes for there are millions of sports fans who celebrate and consider sportspeople pre 2000 as greats eg Ring Meagher Mackey and Keher are all considered some of greatest hurlers ever yet none have won a final since 1970s. Ring is considered the greatest hurler of all time. His last final was in the 50s. The Tipperary team of the 60s which won 4 finals in 5 years is still considered the best Tipp team ever. Im sure u will disagree. We will agree to disagree. But I cannot understand how in soccer great teams and player pre 2000 are still considered the benchmark while in gaelic football its all.about how improved sports science makes players great.

Sonny678

megadodge wrote:

What an utter load of tosh!!

megadodge wrote:

You're comparing that Donegal team to the current Sligo team in terms of their relative standing? A Donegal team crammed with players from two separate All-Ireland winning U21 teams? A Donegal team that were Ulster champions two years previously and gave a great Meath team what Liam Hayes described at the time 'the toughest game he ever played in'? I personally thought Donegal left that game behind them.

megadodge wrote:

And you're comparing that team's standing to Sligo????

Im not comparing the team im comparing the counties record..Sligo have won 3 Connacht titles , Donegal had won 4 Ulster titles before 1992..Sligo have never played in an All Ireland final. Donegal never played in an All Ireland final before 1992. Sligo only won their first game in the championship in Croke Park in the 00s..Donegal only won their first champiomship game ever in Croke Park in the 1992 All Ireland semi final v Mayo. If you said in 1987 in 5 years that a team that had 4 provicial titles had never played in a final and had never won a game in Croke Park in the championship at senior level would be champions in 5 years time u would have been laughed at. If you said to any Donegal supporter 5 years before they won Sam in 92 that they would win Sam in 5 years time, they would have said you were insane. People forget how Donegal winning in 92 was a landmark win, how Donegal were far down the football table prior to late 1980s. Donegal up to the 1970s was a division 4 county. Soccer is the number 1 sport in Sligo and Donegal. There are more socccer clubs in Donegal then GAA..So similarities between Sligo and Donegal record as a county pre 1980s are very similar. Again I am not comparing the actual team which won in 90 Ulster and 92 All Ireland. Im comparing both counties record prior to the mid 80s.

The_Honeybadger

megadodge wrote: »

Sonny678, you could save yourself an awful, awful lot of typing if you just read my posts a little more carefully.

You don't seem to differentiate between 'successful' and 'better'. I do.

The 1950/51 Mayo teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.
The early 20th century Kildare teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.
The 1943/44 Roscommon teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.

Those are facts. I never claimed otherwise.


You seem to be of the opinion (note that word) that any team that won an All-Ireland in any decade is better than any modern team that hasn't. So, if we were magically able to transport both teams in a time machine, the older team would always beat the modern team? For your own credibility I really hope you don't believe that!

You spoke of how great the All-Ireland winning teams in the 1950s were. All of them! And how they are better than the 2014 All-Ireland winning Kerry team. Seriously?

Let's make a quick comparison. The winning times in the 1952 & 1956 Olympic 100m wouldn't even QUALIFY the winner for the 2016 Olympics. And by some considerable distance. But they were 'better' than people who would beat them by least 10 metres?

But of course that's a sport where progress can be proved - so it doesn't count! We're only interested in arguing over sports where nothing can be proven. What a bloody coincidence!

That’s a bit of a straw mans argument. Fitness, ball skills and tactics are now on another level entirely from 30 years ago, the game continually evolves and gets faster and more complex, although I suspect we are probably nearing the ceiling for further improvement at this stage.

That doesn’t mean that if Pat Spillane, Paudi O’Se, Jacko and Mikey Sheehy were around today and had the benefit of modern training and fitness they wouldn’t be great players. Of course they would, and most people would still consider that team to be the best ever. Any modern team would wipe them out using your hypothetical time machine, that doesn’t make them less great.

Sonny678

megadodge wrote:

Players that have played for Kerry since 2010 that in any right-minded person's head will be considered 'great' - Colin Cooper, Marc O'Se, Tomas O'Se, Declan O'Sullivan, Kieran Donanghy, Paul Galvin, Tom O'Sullivan and maybe even Aidan O'Mahoney.

All those players are 00s players they debuted in the 00s. Again can u name 1 player that has debuted for Kerry since 2010 who would be considered an all time great player, one of the best in his position ever. And don't say Paul Geaney, even Paul Geaney would admits he not up there with Cooper Fitzgerald Sheedy Long as kerry greats..T O se debuted in late 90s, Cooper in 2002, Donaghy in the mid 00s as well as D Sullivan and P Galvin. And Sullivan Mahony and O Se debuted in early 00s. They are players from the great kerry team of the 00s. Name one player that debuted in this decade who is an all time great kerry player

. T O Se M O Se Cooper are greats. Mahony and Sullivan are no way in the league of Sean Murphy John O Keefe Paudi O Se or Seamus Moyihan. No kerry person will agree will that. The 2014 team is one of Kerry's worst All Ireland wins since 1950..In any other county it would be great but a county that won 3 All Irelands in 50s 2 in row in 69 70 , a 4 in row in late 70s, a three in row in 80s and 4 All Irelands in 00s including a two in a row. No one in Kerry would place 2014 team above teams that won so many titles.

megadodge wrote:

It's kind of hard to replace these fellas - because they're great! So it's very hard to break into a team containing so many great players, meaning there's a much smaller chance of a new batch of great players coming on the scene until those lads retired.

Excuses excuses 2014 and 97 are kerry bottom two All Ireland winners . How come Cooper was a Kerry first team regular at 20, so was Paudi O Se, Pat Spillane, Mikey Sheedy, John O Keefe were first team regulars replacing greats like O Connell and players on a kerry team that had won 2 All Irelands in a row and 4 or 5 national league div 1 titles in a row , how come O Se and Spillane were winning All Irelands at 20. Moyihan made his debut at 19 , Fitzgerald was a first team regular at 19. Dara O Se was a first team regular at 20. Jack O Se was a first team regular at 21 and he had to break onto a team which had players like Pat Spillane, Paudi O Se, Mikey Sheedy , Ogie Moran , Ger Power and John Egan. Kerry might have great players in 2020s and a great team coming down the tracks but this has been a poor decade by Kerry standard. Defeat after defeat to Dublin and 1 All Ireland win is something that has not happened to Kingdom since 1900.

megadodge wrote:

How many 'great' players made their debut for Kerry after 1980 until 1987? At a stretch Tom Spillane.

That was the greatest team of all time an 8 time All Ireland winners. 2014 team a team that won 1 All Ireland is not comparable to 8 times All Ireland champions. Also Ambrose O Dovanan and Tommy Doyle all kerry All Ireland winning captains debuted after 1980.

megadodge wrote:

But they were replaced eventually. Be patient.

I see that you didnt address all the great teams in 90s Meath Cork Down Derry Donegal Galway all those teams or great teams in 00s. No mention of how many great teams there was in 90s and 00s and great gaa moments eg Clare beating kerry in 92, Armagh winning first title in 02, Westmeath winning first leinster ever in 00s. We havent had any great moments like that in decade. There was 1 great gaa moment year after year in every year from 1990 to the mid 00s.