Inter County player Turnover at Unprecedented Levels

Tombo2001 · 02-05-2018 04:00PM

PARlance wrote: »

Don't think it's too complicated tbh. As you say, successful teans hold onto their players better. That makes a lot of sense.

As for Roscommon, I don't know what's up with them but it's a bit of a shambles. It's not as if they've been lacking underage talent over the last while, getting them in a County jersey seems a much harder task than it should be or is elsewhere.

A particular case in point with Roscommon is that they dont have a sponsor. Whereas say Monaghan has Investec.

A good sponsor that brings in 10k or 20k for the county team - there's a lot of feelgood in having nice gear or nice training or changing facilities.

The Monaghan GAA Centre of Excellence is open 10 years now; and its a very impressive place from what I've seen.

This helps to keep players interested.

And is also more generally a reason why the GAA is performing so well compared to soccer in this country.

Tombo2001 · 02-05-2018 04:06PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

You can ignore it. But there is an issue of player drain. The question is has it peaked or will it worsen. But one thing is for sure the GAA HQ couldnt give two ****s about whats happening at the moment. But if it happens where we end up in All Ireland semi final similar to 1982 when 15000 turned up then they will care, as the money / revenue will plumment. And the super 8 will not help matters whatsoever, it will worsen matters as any young up coming team like Tipp in 2016 , when a young up and coming team reach the super 8 they are looking at 3 massive hammering v top div 1 teams. And another group of players drop off and another overhaul of the county panel occurs. What if no shouts stop .

Question there might be...

Perhaps there was always a high churn rate, but actually what has changed is the best teams are keeping a strong squad together for longer.

Does Meath have a higher churn rate now than 40 years ago? Say in the 1970s....I am guessing they did not have the same players year in year out.

Going back to Paddy O'Rourke's comments.....a big advantage that Dublin has, and Mayo.....is that while the guys in Kildare or Roscommon might follow exactly the same training regime as the Dublin guys, the Dublin guys havent just done it this year - they did it last year, the year before, the year before...and that accumulates over time and you cant replicate that in a hurry.

Sonny678 · 02-05-2018 05:52PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Question there might be...

Perhaps there was always a high churn rate, but actually what has changed is the best teams are keeping a strong squad together for longer.

Does Meath have a higher churn rate now than 40 years ago? Say in the 1970s....I am guessing they did not have the same players year in year out.

Going back to Paddy O'Rourke's comments.....a big advantage that Dublin has, and Mayo.....is that while the guys in Kildare or Roscommon might follow exactly the same training regime as the Dublin guys, the Dublin guys havent just done it this year - they did it last year, the year before, the year before...and that accumulates over time and you cant replicate that in a hurry.

Yes Meath does have a higher churn out rate then say even 10 years ago. I would say Cork Down Derry Armagh also have a high churn out rate. Every time I see Meath play Down Derry or Cork , they all seem to have new teams , a pile of new players every year. It seems to me the overhauling of panels is much more frequet then ever before and the numbers are very high. Derry losing 19 players this year and 19 last year, thats basically nearly two panels of players lost in 24 months.

Meath overhauled the panel in 2013 to 2015, however this year again another massive overhaul, where 11 players were brought onto the panel this spring who never played for Meath before. The overhaul in 2013 to 2015 was a normal one, with the late 00s team breaking up. Every county nearly has to overhaul their panel every ten years or so. Meath are always in transition in the mid part of the decade, always strong at the end part of the decade eg 1949, 1967, 1987, 1988, 1996, 1999, 2007, 2009. Meath team peaks in these years with leinster and All Ireland wins. Meath then decline at the start of a decade as the county team gets olders and decline eg All Ireland final loses in 1951, 1970, 1990, 1991, 2001. Then the team breaks up in the early years of the decade which is always a bad time for Meath eg hammered by Dublin in 1961, first round defeats in 1971 1972, 1981 (Wexford), 1982 (longford), 1992 ( Laois) and bad defeats in 2002 ( Donegal) , 2011 ( Kildare).

Meath are always in transition in the mid part of decade which sees bad defeats v Dublin 1955, laois 1985, Dublin 1995, Cavan 2005, Dublin 2014, Westmeath 2015. So Meath should be stronger now. But instead we have had our second overhaul of a panel in three years, I can never remeber that happening in Meath football in the last 35 years.

Teams do go through ten year periods of rebuilding , eg Donegal are always and only sucessful at the start of a decade . For example first Ulster title in 1972, second Ulster title in 1983, First All Ireland in 1992, Second All Ireland in 2012. Tipp hurlers are also nearly always sucessful at the start of a decade eg All Ireland wins in 1971, 1991, 2001, 2010. Only 2016 and 1989 deviated from the above wins in the last half century. So every teams should be overhauling their panel every ten years or so. Not every two years which is happening in Meath Derry Down Laois Offaly Armagh and Cork recently.

I cannot get my hands on exact numbers but here is some of the examples of players leaving hurling and football panels this year in 2018 after the league in recent weeks.

1 Yesterday Kieran Barret one of Waterfords best young hurlers left the Waterford senior hurling panel. His brother David Bennet had left the hurling panel earlier in the year.

2 Peter Kelly left the Dublin senior hurling panel last weekend.

3 Jack Guiney left the Wexford senior hurling panel 1 week ago.

4 Brendan Murphy left Carlow football panel 8 days ago.

5 Liam Silke left the Galway senior football panel last week and Cillian McDaid left Galway senior panel since the league ended. Two of Galways best young defenders.

6 Ben McCormack and Eoin Powderly left kildare senior football panel in April after the league this year. Ben McCormack is one of kildares best forwards.

7 Michael Carroll, Eoin McHugh and Peter Boyle have left the Donegal senior football panel recently.

8 Bonny Duggan, Gearoid O Connell and T O Connell have left Clare senior hurling panel recently.

9 Padraig Rath, Patrick Reilly , Conall McKeever and James Stewart have left the louth senior football panel recently.

10 Sean Toibin, Brian Conlon, Harry Rooney and possibly Padraig Mckeever ( some say he has, other says he hasnt ) have left the Meath senior football panel since the league ended.

11 Two players have left Roscommon panel since the league ended, but I dont know their names.

While I have heard players have left Laois footballers and hurlers and Derry and Wexford footballers since the league ended.

That is just a sample of some of players who have left since the league ended.

bucketybuck · 02-05-2018 07:25PM

I'm curious why the list you've quoted a number of times only includes 27 teams, where did it come from and why does it not include all teams?

I noticed mainly because it doesn't seem to include Fermanagh, a team that already had small numbers but has famously been hemorrhaging players this past few years.

You have to bare this in mind. They played Mayo last year and should have beaten them in Castlebar. But of that team that played against Mayo, only six are available. Of that fifteen that started that Mayo team, only six are available for this weekend.

There’s a picture that caught my eye last week at the press event in the Fermanagh training ground. It was the panel of the All-Ireland quarter-final against Dublin in 2015. Of that picture, 20 people - 20 people! - out of the panel are gone. Now Dublin couldn’t sustain that kind of player loss, but for Fermanagh it seems to be an annual thing, they just basically lose three quarters of their panel and start all over again.”

Sonny678 · 02-05-2018 08:01PM

bucketybuck wrote:

I'm curious why the list you've quoted a number of times only includes 27 teams, where did it come from and why does it not include all teams?

bucketybuck wrote:

I noticed mainly because it doesn't seem to include Fermanagh, a team that already had small numbers but has famously been hemorrhaging players this past few years.

Sorry about that. The stats come from the Irish Independent.
And I missed out on a couple of counties 3 counties who have the lowest turnover in div 2 3 and 4.
Fermanagh Tipp and Carlow have all had 7 non returnees this year. The 3 lowest counties in div 2 3 and 4. Fermanagh 30/ 7, Carlow 30/ 7 and Tipp 31/ 7. I was concentrating on counties with high turnover , I left out those three. I know ur saying Fermanagh have been losing players in the last few years. But this year they had lowest non returnees in division 3 where Derry lost 19, Offaly lost 16, Wexford lost 17, Westmeath 13, and longford 12 .

bucketybuck · 02-05-2018 08:11PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

Sorry about that. The stats come from the Irish Independent.
And I missed out on a couple of counties 3 counties who have the lowest turnover in div 2 3 and 4.
Fermanagh Tipp and Carlow have all had 7 non returnees this year. The 3 lowest counties in div 2 3 and 4. Fermanagh 30/ 7, Carlow 30/ 7 and Tipp 31/ 7. I was concentrating on counties with high turnover , I left out those three. I know ur saying Fermanagh have been losing players in the last few years. But this year they had lowest non returnees in division 3 where Derry lost 19, Offaly lost 16, Wexford lost 17, Westmeath 13, and longford 12 .

I didn't know their figures for this year, thanks.

I have to say that even if it is a low figure relative to other counties, when you consider how many were lost in the 3 years previous losing 7 more players this year is still quite a high figure really. When a county replaces almost their entire squad over such a short time you would expect that rate of change/loss to stabilise, as the new players are still settling in and haven't yet burned out on intercounty football.

That there are still so many losses speaks to a deeper issue.

megadodge · 02-05-2018 10:02PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

Comments like that remind me of people predicting the property crash in 2008. And others spouting Oh no it will be grand, nothing to see here, and then its full blown crisis.

It is getting worse. You can ignore , or fail to understand, and everything is rosey. But Meath are having their worst decade in 100 years so are Galway . Down and Cork are having their worst decade in 70 years. Derry laois Offlay Armagh are having there worst decade in 50 years. Kildare are having their worst decade in 90 years along with the 1980s. All those counties are seen a massive drop off of players. All strong football counties. It is the least competive leinster championship in 130 years. Nothing is wrong, everything is Rosey in the garden as Laois are in divison 4 this year, Derry will be next year and in the last few years Armagh kildare Meath Derry Offaly laois Westhmeath and now Down have spent time in div 3. All the above counties where winning titles not so long ago. Thats unprecdented in the last 40 years. But no everything is grand here, nothing to see. There is an issue and the question is, will it worsen?. What can be done to alter things. A new fairer championship format ? I dont know. But the first thing is to acknowledge there is a problem. And the GAA are definalty not doing anything, and I mean anything to help the current situation. Their proposals eg the Super 8 will probaly worsen instead of helping matters.

And your relentless, very, very very long-winded pessimism reminds me of those poor people who sold up all they had and went off to a cult to commit suicide because Jim Jones told them the world was going to end.

Well it didn't.

I remember when all the talk was about how Kerry and Dublin had ruined football. They won every All-Ireland between 1974 and 1986 except for Offaly's in 1982.

Well football wasn't ruined. It went on. And got better. A lot better!!

What figures exactly is the always truthful and reliable Irish Independent comparing the current figures to? Oh yeah, they aren't! They just throw up these figures when it's that time of year that they've nothing to write about. I wonder will Martin Breheny bring out his old reliable 'they should make a goal worth 4 points to encourage more attacking play' one of these days. He's been spouting it since the 1980s. Why change? If they compared like with like we could argue, but of course they don't. That mightn't help the narrative they're trying to create.

As I already mentioned, the figure of 12 players gone from Roscommon includes only TWO of the last year's first team, one of whom is almost certain to return next year. Decent club players are brought onto extended county panels every year to try them out in the hope they might unearth 1 or 2 actual county players. The rest aren't needed, hence they leave/are dropped.

While I'm at it, the notion that the 2014 Kerry team wasn't as good as any of the All-Ireland winning Kerry teams of the 1950s is just ludicrous. Youtube and TG4's All-Ireland Gold has been an utter nightmare for bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything was so much better back in the good old days" we can now see exactly how "good" they were and they never stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

Isn't it remarkable how sentimentalists always wax lyrical about the old days exclusively in sports where you cannot actually measure the performances? I wonder is it because any sport where you can measure, the performances have consistently improved?

Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!
Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 01:25AM

megadodge wrote: »

And your relentless, very, very very long-winded pessimism reminds me of those poor people who sold up all they had and went off to a cult to commit suicide because Jim Jones told them the world was going to end.

Well it didn't.

I remember when all the talk was about how Kerry and Dublin had ruined football. They won every All-Ireland between 1974 and 1986 except for Offaly's in 1982.

Well football wasn't ruined. It went on. And got better. A lot better!!

What figures exactly is the always truthful and reliable Irish Independent comparing the current figures to? Oh yeah, they aren't! They just throw up these figures when it's that time of year that they've nothing to write about. I wonder will Martin Breheny bring out his old reliable 'they should make a goal worth 4 points to encourage more attacking play' one of these days. He's been spouting it since the 1980s. Why change? If they compared like with like we could argue, but of course they don't. That mightn't help the narrative they're trying to create.

As I already mentioned, the figure of 12 players gone from Roscommon includes only TWO of the last year's first team, one of whom is almost certain to return next year. Decent club players are brought onto extended county panels every year to try them out in the hope they might unearth 1 or 2 actual county players. The rest aren't needed, hence they leave/are dropped.

While I'm at it, the notion that the 2014 Kerry team wasn't as good as any of the All-Ireland winning Kerry teams of the 1950s is just ludicrous. Youtube and TG4's All-Ireland Gold has been an utter nightmare for bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything was so much better back in the good old days" we can now see exactly how "good" they were and they never stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

Isn't it remarkable how sentimentalists always wax lyrical about the old days exclusively in sports where you cannot actually measure the performances? I wonder is it because any sport where you can measure, the performances have consistently improved?

Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!
Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

Your pretty very long winded yourself.
Sorry for my below very very very long winded messages, but I do have allot of evidence against your arguements.

1 Most people consider that Dublin and Kerry saved football. Prior to kerry v Dublin football populairty was on the wane. In 1974 there is little or no TV footage whatsoever of the All Ireland semi final Dublin v reigning All Ireland champions Cork. Because the Dublin RDS horse show was on at the same time. RTE only had cameras and equipment to cover 1 sports event at the time. The horse show in the RDS was seen as more important and people would want to see the Dublin horse show more then an All Ireland semi final in 1974 . So RTE sent their cameras to the record the horse show and not an All Ireland semi final. Thats how far GAA was down the list of peoples attention in early 70s. Within 3 to 4 years Kerry and Dublin had captured the attention of the nation and the popularity of gaelic football grew and grew. And since 1974 there has been tv cameras at every All Ireland semi final since. Modern GAA , begins with Kerry v Dublin in the 70s, they brought colour to the GAA, dragged the association into modern world.

2 The fact is players are leaving in high numbers . If you don think there is a problem its your perogative. But Im not alone in thinking and saying there is p a roblem . There is thousands of GAA people like me in Meath Derry Down Cork Laois Armagh Kildare Offaly Wexford and other counties ( Fermanagh Sligo Limerick Leitrim) who believe there is an issue as they see players leaving on mass year after year, as all these counties collectively have their worst period in generations.

3 I saw great games in the past eg Down v Derry 94, Meath v Kildare 97, Meath v Down 91 and many more. People watch a couple of bad finals in the 70s and 80s on tng 4 and take these couple of bad finals as examples to say football was crap back then. I have been going to Croke Park since 1982, and havent missed a leinster final since 1982, and I can tell you from personal experience that I saw with my own eyes , not because I saw it on you tube, but because I was there, there was great players and great games in the past. What about the bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything is so much better now then in the bad old days", I saw the so called bad old days. And if players like Matt Connor of Offaly was still around today , he would still be the best footballer in Ireland by a mile.

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 01:25AM

megadodge wrote: »

And your relentless, very, very very long-winded pessimism reminds me of those poor people who sold up all they had and went off to a cult to commit suicide because Jim Jones told them the world was going to end.

Well it didn't.

I remember when all the talk was about how Kerry and Dublin had ruined football. They won every All-Ireland between 1974 and 1986 except for Offaly's in 1982.

Well football wasn't ruined. It went on. And got better. A lot better!!

What figures exactly is the always truthful and reliable Irish Independent comparing the current figures to? Oh yeah, they aren't! They just throw up these figures when it's that time of year that they've nothing to write about. I wonder will Martin Breheny bring out his old reliable 'they should make a goal worth 4 points to encourage more attacking play' one of these days. He's been spouting it since the 1980s. Why change? If they compared like with like we could argue, but of course they don't. That mightn't help the narrative they're trying to create.

As I already mentioned, the figure of 12 players gone from Roscommon includes only TWO of the last year's first team, one of whom is almost certain to return next year. Decent club players are brought onto extended county panels every year to try them out in the hope they might unearth 1 or 2 actual county players. The rest aren't needed, hence they leave/are dropped.

While I'm at it, the notion that the 2014 Kerry team wasn't as good as any of the All-Ireland winning Kerry teams of the 1950s is just ludicrous. Youtube and TG4's All-Ireland Gold has been an utter nightmare for bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything was so much better back in the good old days" we can now see exactly how "good" they were and they never stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

Isn't it remarkable how sentimentalists always wax lyrical about the old days exclusively in sports where you cannot actually measure the performances? I wonder is it because any sport where you can measure, the performances have consistently improved?

Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!
Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

I see you didnt say the 2014 team where better then Kerry teams of 00s ( Cooper T O Se), 90s ( Fitzgerald Moyihan) 80s and 70s (P O Se J O Shea O Keefe , Spillane, Sheedy, Egan) . At least you know the 2 in row Kerry teams of the 69 70 and 06 07 and the three in a row and 4 in a row teams of the 70s and 80s are better teams then kerrys 2014 team.
But ask anyone in Kerry and they will tell the Kerry team of the 50s , had some of the greatest kerry players ever and some of the greatest footballers ever . Not one player Kerry player have debuted since 2010 would be considered a truly all time great Kerry player, a player that would be considered the best player in their position ever. In the 50s kerry had all time great players like O Connell, Dywer , Murphy, Long and Lyne

GREAT KERRY PLAYER FROM THE 50S/ GAA LEGENDS

Mick O Connell ( considered to be one of the greatest midfielders of all time ) He was voted at midfield on the GAA team of the century and GAA team of the millenium. Would David Moran or Paul Geaney achieve this acolade. Mick O Connell is simply a legend in his own life time.One of the most celebrated and famous gaelic footballers ever.

Sean Murphy. Considered one of the greatest kerry defenders and one of the greatest defenders in the history of the game. He was voted left half back on the team of the century and the team of the millenium . Many Kerry fans to this say Murphy was the most stylish footballer that every played in the green and gold of Kerry. Sean Murphy is one of the few single individuals to have an All Ireland directly associated with his name for the 1959 final is referred to as the "Sean Murphy final".

Mick Dwyer - Mick Dwyer is considered one of the greatest forwards kerry ever produced. Dywer won 4 All Ireland senior titles and 12 Munster football senior titles as a player. He is one of the few handful of players in history who won All Irelands as player in 3 decades.

Tom Long is considered in the kingdom as one of the greatest of all Kerry players. Ask any true kerry supporter and they will tell you Long would walk on any Kerry side of any era.

Tadghie Lyne is described in Kerry as "The Prince of Forwards" to this very day . Lyne is considered in the Kingdom as one of the finest scoring forwards of all time.

The Kerry team of the 50s was mananaged by for many the first real great gaa manager or coach Dr Eamonn O'Sullivan. Sullivan trained to Kerry to 8 senior All Ireland titles. Only Dwyer is considered a better manager in kerry football. Sullivan was seen as a visionary and ahead of his time. No one in Kerry would place Eamon Fitzmaurice ahead of Dr. Sullivan as a coach or manager , with Fitzmaurice 1 All Ireland title to Sullivans 8 titles.

Also that Kerry team won 3 All Irelands 1953 1955 and 1959 compared to the one gained this decade. Only for been beating by a great Meath team in 54 final they would have won 3 in a row in the early 50s. The 40s and 50s were a golden age for football. You had the greatest Mayo team ever 50 51 , the greatest louth team ever 57 , greatest Roscommon team ever 43 44 ,and one of the greatest teams ever the Cavan team 47 48 52.
You also had a great Meath team 49 54 , a great Galway team 56 and the first proper great Dublin team led by Kevin Heffernan in 1958. The first Dublin team to win All Irelands with players all from Dublin. In the 40s and 50s you also strong teams from Kildare Carlow Wexford Antrim Cork and Laois. The 50s to this day in kerry is callled "The Golden Fifties" because it is so fondly remebered and considered a golden age of kerry football, because so many all time great kerry players come from the era.

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 01:58AM

megadodge wrote: »

And your relentless, very, very very long-winded pessimism reminds me of those poor people who sold up all they had and went off to a cult to commit suicide because Jim Jones told them the world was going to end.

Well it didn't.

I remember when all the talk was about how Kerry and Dublin had ruined football. They won every All-Ireland between 1974 and 1986 except for Offaly's in 1982.

Well football wasn't ruined. It went on. And got better. A lot better!!

What figures exactly is the always truthful and reliable Irish Independent comparing the current figures to? Oh yeah, they aren't! They just throw up these figures when it's that time of year that they've nothing to write about. I wonder will Martin Breheny bring out his old reliable 'they should make a goal worth 4 points to encourage more attacking play' one of these days. He's been spouting it since the 1980s. Why change? If they compared like with like we could argue, but of course they don't. That mightn't help the narrative they're trying to create.

As I already mentioned, the figure of 12 players gone from Roscommon includes only TWO of the last year's first team, one of whom is almost certain to return next year. Decent club players are brought onto extended county panels every year to try them out in the hope they might unearth 1 or 2 actual county players. The rest aren't needed, hence they leave/are dropped.

While I'm at it, the notion that the 2014 Kerry team wasn't as good as any of the All-Ireland winning Kerry teams of the 1950s is just ludicrous. Youtube and TG4's All-Ireland Gold has been an utter nightmare for bullsh*t artists all over the country/world. Instead of having to listen to "everything was so much better back in the good old days" we can now see exactly how "good" they were and they never stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

Isn't it remarkable how sentimentalists always wax lyrical about the old days exclusively in sports where you cannot actually measure the performances? I wonder is it because any sport where you can measure, the performances have consistently improved?

Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!
Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

You said "Kildare are not any worse now than any decade outside of the '00s. They won one Leinster title between 1935 and 1998 FFS!"

Wrong

1 1900 to 1910 Kildare won 1 All Ireland senior and 1 leinster title , better decade then now

2 1910 to 1920 Kildare won 1 All Ireland senior and 1 leinster senior title better decade then current one for kildare

3 In the 1920s, Kildare won 2 All Ireland senior titles and 6 leinster senior titles , a better decade then the current one for kildare

4 In the 1930s Kildare won 3 leinster senior titles, they have won none in this decade

5 In the 1940s kildare played in 2 leisnter finals and stayed most of the decade in division 1, in this decade kildare have only played in 1 leinster final and have been relegated three times in the last 5 years. The 40s was better decade for kildare football then the current one.

6 In the 1950s kildare won 1 leinster senior football title, they have won none in this decade. Kildare reached national league Division 1 final in 1958. They havent reached any Division 1 National league final in this decade . So the 50s was a more sucessful decade for kildare football then this decade

7 In the 1960s Kildare reached 2 leinster senior finals compared to 1 leinster final appearance in this decade. kildare also reached a National League Division 1 final in 1968 , they havent reached National league divsion 1 final since 1991. And in the 60s , in 1965 kildare won their first and only under 21 All Ireland title. kildare also won 3 under 21 leinster titles in a row in the 60s. kildares most sucessful period in Under 21 football ever. Again the 60s was a better decade for kildare then the current decade.

8 In the 1970s kildare played in 4 leinster senior football finals. Compared to 1 in this decade. Kildare also reached their only All Ireland minor final ever in 1973 and won 2 leinster minor titles and 2 leinster under 21 titles in the 70s. The 70s kildare team are considered in kildare as the best kildare team after the 90s team in the last 60 years . They had great rivalry with Offaly at the start of the 70s and kildare where very unlucky not to win leinster title in early 70s.

9 And the 90s is the most sucessful period since the 20s with 1 leinster senior title and 1 All Ireland senior final appearance. The 00s is also better then the current decade with 1 leisnter senior title and their only victory over Dublin in 90 years in a leinster senior final occured in the 00s.

I said in my original post kildare worst decades were the 80s and this decade. In the 80s kildare reached no leisnter senior finals and were in divsion three . Kildare lost to Kilkenny footballers in Byrne cup match at the end of the 80s. Thats kildares worst decade since 1920s. The next worst is the current one.

10 In this decade kildare have reached only 1 leinster final. They have had 3 relegations in 5 years. They currently have lost 10 games in a row. They have lost their last 6 games in Croke Park in the last 3 years. They havent won a match in Croke Park in the championship in 5 years. They have only won in Croke Park 3 times in the championship in this decade. They have lost their last 35 of their last 40 matchs in Croke Park. They havent won a leinster senior semi final in Croke Park in 9 years since 2009.

11 And they have had some of the worst defeats in their history in the last decade, record defeats to Dublin and Kerry. Two defeats v Dublin recently are their two worst defeats in the leinster championship in 100 years for kildare football. kildares 19 point defeat to Dublin in 2015 is kildares worst defeat to Dublin since 1897 ( Dublin 5 -18 Kildare 0-14) . The 7 goal hammering v Kerry in 2015 is the worst defeat for kildare in the championship outside leinster in 100 years ( Kerry 7 -16 Kildare 0-10). Other bad defeats (Cork 2-19 0-12 in 2012).
( In terms of the leinster senior championship, the stats show kildare are not the second most sucessful team in the leinster championship in this decade which most people would probaly believe. They are the fourth. Dublin r number 1 of course with 7 senior titles, Meath r second with 4 leinster final appearances and 1 title, Westmeath have 2 leinster final appearances and kildare have 1 leinster final appearances along with Louth who also have 1.)

So because of all the above evidence one can say kildare were more sucessful in 1920s, 30s , 40s, 50s, 60s,70s, 90 and 00s then the current decade.
Apologies to any kildare supporters with bringing up the results, but Im just trying to show why I said this decade and the 80s is kildare worst decade since 1920s. It is also Meaths worst decade since the 1920s, if Meath dont reach an All Ireland in the next 2 years it will be first decade since 1920s that has happened. Meaths lose to Dublin in 2014 is Meath worst lose to Dublin since the 1920s. There was bad loses in 95 ( but Meath were ahead with ten mins to go), early 60s and 1955 ( but that Meath team was overhil in 55 after winning the final with the oldest team ever in 54) . 2014 was first time in hundred years a Meath v Dublin match was over by half time.

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 03:14AM

megadodge wrote: »

Monaghan are in a golden era. Never before have they won Minor, U21 and Senior Ulster titles in the one decade.
Donegal have had their best decade at senior level ever.
Tipperary football is getting better and better. They should really be in D1.
Roscommon are definitely on the rise.
Carlow are even improving.
Galway are definitely on their way back.
This Mayo team is their best ever. Please don't pretend the 1950/51 team would beat them.

You see when you actually stop to look for positives, there are plenty of them out there.

Things don't remain the same, in life or sport. They change constantly. And no, change is not necessarily bad.

Yes Monaghan have their best team in 30 years . But the Monaghan team of 1985 which drew with Kerry the greatest team ever in an All Ireland semi final in 85 is considered their best team ever.

Donegal have had a great decade. But people forget what a great achievement it was for Donegal to win in 92. It would be like Sligo beating Dublin in an All Ireland final in 5 years time. Donegal had only won 4 Ulster titles up to 1991, their first ever was in 1972. When Donegal defeated Mayo in the All Ireland semi final in 1992 it was Donegals first ever win in Croke Park in the championship ever, the final was their second win ever. Teams like Donegal from Ulster and Connacht did not beat Dublin before 1992. Donegal showed counties like Derry Tyrone and Armagh that you could beat the Dublin and kerrys and win your first All Ireland. That All Ireland win was a landmark All Ireland win and the team of 2012 would not have won if the men in 1992 did not break down the door for Donegal teams. I believe that Donegal team in 92 is their best ever. But I wouldnt argue to much if someone said 2012 team was. The 2012 team won a tough All Ireland in that year beating Tyrone , Kerry, Cork and Mayo.

Most people believe it takes a great team to place two All Irelands back to back. So it is strange for you to say a team that has won no All Irelands is better then a team that won 2 All Irelands. Runner up teams are not usually considered better then mutiple championship winning teams. You must then believe yourself that the Atletico Madrid team that lost two European cup finals recently are a better team then AC Milan that won two in row European cups in the 90s. Being a Roscommon fan you must then consider Roscommons only All Irelands in 43 and 44 as worthless if you dont rate Mayo team in 50 51.
The fact is most true Mayo gaa supporters would consider the 50 51 team as GAA legends and the greatest Mayo team ever. The same the way the Roscommon team of 43 44 with men like Murry are GAA legends and the greatest Roscommon team ever and one of the best to cross the Shannon.

In this decade your talking about Tipp Galway and Roscommon and what they going to do. Maybe they will, but there is also a possiblitly they wouldnt. It does show you the how uncompetitive this decade is when you have to talk about what teams are going to do, not what have they done. Unlike teams in the 90s and 00s who actually won titles. I will show the diffference in the 90s 00s and below,

But firstly until Galway perform in the championship like they have in the league there will be question marks. In the last 6 years Cork Roscommon Kildare and Derry had similar sucessful division 1 campaigns to Galway, but they followed up with dreadful championships in the summer. And Cork Derry and Kildare have not really recovered since. Galway havent won a match in Croker in the championship in 17 years. If Galway dont reach an All Ireland final in the next two years it would be the first time since independence as Galway have reached finals in 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s. Galway havent reached even a semi final in this decade the first time in 100 years. So Galway have a few hurdles to jump before they suceed. They will have to beat probaly Dublin kerry or top division 1 teams outside Connacht to suceed. Galway havent beaten Kerry in the champioship in 53 years, Galway havent beaten Dublin in the championship in over 90 years and Galway have only beaten top division 1 teams outside Connacht in the championship 5 times in the last 50 years eg v Offaly 73, v Derry 98, v Kildare 98 , v Armagh 01 and v Meath 01. In comparsion Mayo have beaten top division 1 teams outiside Connacht many many times in the last 20 years eg V Kerry 96, V Dublin 05, V Cork 11, V Dublin 12, V Donegal 13, V Tyrone 16, V Kerry 17 and I have left others out probaly. So Galway have to start to win like they did in the league in the the next two summers and then they are real contenders and overcome quite a few hurdles.

Compare this decade to 90s and 00s .
This Decade

1 Dublin One of the greatest teams ever, could become the greatest ever
2 Mayo The best never to never win an All Ireland , and the most sucessful Mayo team of the last 70 years
3 The best or second best Donegal team ever
4 Best Monaghan team in the last 30 years
5 The poorest Kerry All Ireland winners in 50 years ( Along with 97 team who had to beat Clare Cavan and Mayo to win Sam, even though 97 was an important win for kerry)
And then a couple of teams who might win something in the future and thats it

1990s

1 The Greatest Cork Team ever
2 A great Meath
3 The best Down team of the last 50 years
4 The best or second best Donegal team ever
5 The Best Leitrim team of the last 90 years
6 The best Clare football team in 90 years
7 The most sucessful Mayo team in 40 years from 1952 to 1996 -1997
8 The greatest Derry team ever
7 The best team from Connacht in 50 years, One of Galways greatest teams ever
8 The Best and most sucessful Cavan team in the last 50 years
9 The best Offaly team in the last 30 years
10 The best and most sucessful Kildare team in 90 years

And other teams who were competitive at different levels eg Tyrone 95 96 the first team from Ulster to put Ulster senior titles back to back in 20 years, louth reached 6 leinster semi finals in a row in the 90s.

The 00s
1 The greatest Tyrone team ever and possilbly the best team from Ulster in 50 years
2 The greatest Armagh team ever
3 One of the greatest teams to come from Kerry
4 The greatest Westhmeath team ever
5 The best and most sucessful Laois team in 70 years
6 The best Sligo team in 30 years and one of the greatest teams to ever come out of Sligo
7 The best and most sucessful Wexford team in 70 years
8 One of the most sucessful and best teams to come out of Fermanagh
9 The best Mayo team up to then along with 90s since 50s. This Mayo team was more sucessful then any Mayo team in 80s,70s,60s and most of the 50s
10 Kildare most sucessful team since 20s
And you also had competitive teams at different levels in Derry Donegal Cork Meath Limerick in this period.

Anyone who looks at the three eras in an unbiased would have to say there is a difference between the amount of great team in the 90s and 00s and the current decade. Take leinster ,. In the late 90s you had 4 top division 1 teams winning titles. Most leinster teams have been in div 3 and 4 during this decade. Even in the 70s you had 4 top divsion 1 teams in leinster. With Dublin of course, kildare reaching 4 leinster finals, Offaly winning two All Irelands and Meath beating Dublin in national league div 1 final and could have beaten Dublin in 74, should have in 76 and how they didnt in 77 it is a mystery when they dominated the second half and kicked wide after wide. Simply put this is currently the most uncompetitive leinster championship in 130 years.

megadodge · 03-05-2018 09:17PM

Sonny678, you could save yourself an awful, awful lot of typing if you just read my posts a little more carefully.

You don't seem to differentiate between 'successful' and 'better'. I do.

The 1950/51 Mayo teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.
The early 20th century Kildare teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.
The 1943/44 Roscommon teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.

Those are facts. I never claimed otherwise.

You seem to be of the opinion (note that word) that any team that won an All-Ireland in any decade is better than any modern team that hasn't. So, if we were magically able to transport both teams in a time machine, the older team would always beat the modern team? For your own credibility I really hope you don't believe that!

You spoke of how great the All-Ireland winning teams in the 1950s were. All of them! And how they are better than the 2014 All-Ireland winning Kerry team. Seriously?

Let's make a quick comparison. The winning times in the 1952 & 1956 Olympic 100m wouldn't even QUALIFY the winner for the 2016 Olympics. And by some considerable distance. But they were 'better' than people who would beat them by least 10 metres?

But of course that's a sport where progress can be proved - so it doesn't count! We're only interested in arguing over sports where nothing can be proven. What a bloody coincidence!

titan18 · 03-05-2018 09:29PM

How many Cork players from last year's stats play for Nemo, cos none of them played for Cork so far this year cos of the AI clubs. I'd imagine you might have similar cases for Slaughtneil, Corofin and Moorefield.

klairondavis · 03-05-2018 09:32PM

titan18 wrote: »

How many Cork players from last year's stats play for Nemo, cos none of them played for Cork so far this year cos of the AI clubs. I'd imagine you might have similar cases for Slaughtneil, Corofin and Moorefield.

There were no Moorefield representatives on last year's Kildare panel.

megadodge · 03-05-2018 09:33PM

Players that have played for Kerry since 2010 that in any right-minded person's head will be considered 'great' - Colin Cooper, Marc O'Se, Tomas O'Se, Declan O'Sullivan, Kieran Donanghy, Paul Galvin, Tom O'Sullivan and maybe even Aidan O'Mahoney.

It's kind of hard to replace these fellas - because they're great! So it's very hard to break into a team containing so many great players, meaning there's a much smaller chance of a new batch of great players coming on the scene until those lads retired.

How many 'great' players made their debut for Kerry after 1980 until 1987? At a stretch Tom Spillane.

But they were replaced eventually. Be patient.

megadodge · 03-05-2018 09:47PM

Donegal have had a great decade. But people forget what a great achievement it was for Donegal to win in 92. It would be like Sligo beating Dublin in an All Ireland final in 5 years time. Donegal had only won 4 Ulster titles up to 1991, their first ever was in 1972. When Donegal defeated Mayo in the All Ireland semi final in 1992 it was Donegals first ever win in Croke Park in the championship ever, the final was their second win ever. Teams like Donegal from Ulster and Connacht did not beat Dublin before 1992. Donegal showed counties like Derry Tyrone and Armagh that you could beat the Dublin and kerrys and win your first All Ireland. That All Ireland win was a landmark All Ireland win and the team of 2012 would not have won if the men in 1992 did not break down the door for Donegal teams. I believe that Donegal team in 92 is their best ever. But I wouldnt argue to much if someone said 2012 team was. The 2012 team won a tough All Ireland in that year beating Tyrone , Kerry, Cork and Mayo.

What an utter load of tosh!!

You're comparing that Donegal team to the current Sligo team in terms of their relative standing? A Donegal team crammed with players from two separate All-Ireland winning U21 teams? A Donegal team that were Ulster champions two years previously and gave a great Meath team what Liam Hayes described at the time 'the toughest game he ever played in'? I personally thought Donegal left that game behind them.

And you're comparing that team's standing to Sligo????

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 10:11PM

megadodge wrote:

Sonny678, you could save yourself an awful, awful lot of typing if you just read my posts a little more carefully.

megadodge wrote:

You don't seem to differentiate between 'successful' and 'better'. I do.

megadodge wrote:

The 1950/51 Mayo teams were more successful than their modern counterparts. The early 20th century Kildare teams were more successful than their modern counterparts. The 1943/44 Roscommon teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.

megadodge wrote:

Those are facts. I never claimed otherwise.

megadodge wrote:

You seem to be of the opinion (note that word) that any team that won an All-Ireland in any decade is better than any modern team that hasn't. So, if we were magically able to transport both teams in a time machine, the older team would always beat the modern team? For your own credibility I really hope you don't believe that!

megadodge wrote:

You spoke of how great the All-Ireland winning teams in the 1950s were. All of them! And how they are better than the 2014 All-Ireland winning Kerry team. Seriously?

megadodge wrote:

Let's make a quick comparison. The winning times in the 1952 & 1956 Olympic 100m wouldn't even QUALIFY the winner for the 2016 Olympics. And by some considerable distance. But they were 'better' than people who would beat them by least 10 metres?

megadodge wrote:

But of course that's a sport where progress can be proved - so it doesn't count! We're only interested in arguing over sports where nothing can be proven. What a bloody coincidence!

Sports is about titles. Do Spurs supporters think the current Spurs team r better then 1961 Double winning team. Answer No. coz winners of titles are considered better then a team cannot win a title.
If Liverpool lose the champions league final in May. Will that team be considered a better team the pool teams which won the European cup in 77 78 81 84 . No they wouldnt and no Liverpool will agree they will. In the words of Abba the winners takes it all. So I could give you a million more examples , I disagree 110%. Thats it. Its your prerogative to disagee and im free to disagree u.

You are on about fitness how fast someone can run. Some people think that because there is better sports science today, players have less body fat means they are better players. Anyone can become fit pretty much. But kicking a point from distance, fielding a ball, kicking accurate scores from tight angles with left and right foot, defending well, the art of defending ( which the blanket defence has destroyed with the exception of Dublin and Mayo defenders the lack of great defenders is obvious compared to 90s and 00s eg Scullion Fay O Malley Moyihan Lockart Barr Heery Curran Ryan Og De Paor McGeeney O Connell Canty Lynch O Ses Gormley McMemanin Nallen Christie to name but a few, Im sure u will disagree).

Anyone can become fit pretty much but inate football ability, technique, football skills , character and temperament are all skills that u eitheir have or dont. And players like Sean Purcell or Jack O Shea or Sean O Neill, if they were around today they would still be the best footballers in Ireland because of their inate football ability, skills, techniques winning mentality, temperament and character.

In soccer Pele is still considered the greatest soccer player ever. Other greats like Cruyff Maradona Best are all considered all time greats. If you said to an English supporters that John Stone was a better defender then Bobby Moore they would laugh in your face.
If you said to any English fan that any English international soccer team since 2000 was better then the World Cup winners off 66, they would see such comments as insulting .

If we take your way of thinking then you must consider Anthony Joshua a better heavyweight boxer then Muhammad Ali. There is no boxing expert in the world who would agree. Joe Lewis hasnt fought for 80 years yet he would be considered a greater heavyweight boxer then any boxer in this decade.
The Brazil of 1970 is considered the best soccer team ever.

I can go on and on. Greatness is measured by many means not just how much sports science has advanced and you have and how fast you can sprint. Im not the only one who believes for there are millions of sports fans who celebrate and consider sportspeople pre 2000 as greats eg Ring Meagher Mackey and Keher are all considered some of greatest hurlers ever yet none have won a final since 1970s. Ring is considered the greatest hurler of all time. His last final was in the 50s. The Tipperary team of the 60s which won 4 finals in 5 years is still considered the best Tipp team ever. Im sure u will disagree. We will agree to disagree. But I cannot understand how in soccer great teams and player pre 2000 are still considered the benchmark while in gaelic football its all.about how improved sports science makes players great.

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 10:21PM

megadodge wrote:

What an utter load of tosh!!

megadodge wrote:

You're comparing that Donegal team to the current Sligo team in terms of their relative standing? A Donegal team crammed with players from two separate All-Ireland winning U21 teams? A Donegal team that were Ulster champions two years previously and gave a great Meath team what Liam Hayes described at the time 'the toughest game he ever played in'? I personally thought Donegal left that game behind them.

megadodge wrote:

And you're comparing that team's standing to Sligo????

Im not comparing the team im comparing the counties record..Sligo have won 3 Connacht titles , Donegal had won 4 Ulster titles before 1992..Sligo have never played in an All Ireland final. Donegal never played in an All Ireland final before 1992. Sligo only won their first game in the championship in Croke Park in the 00s..Donegal only won their first champiomship game ever in Croke Park in the 1992 All Ireland semi final v Mayo. If you said in 1987 in 5 years that a team that had 4 provicial titles had never played in a final and had never won a game in Croke Park in the championship at senior level would be champions in 5 years time u would have been laughed at. If you said to any Donegal supporter 5 years before they won Sam in 92 that they would win Sam in 5 years time, they would have said you were insane. People forget how Donegal winning in 92 was a landmark win, how Donegal were far down the football table prior to late 1980s. Donegal up to the 1970s was a division 4 county. Soccer is the number 1 sport in Sligo and Donegal. There are more socccer clubs in Donegal then GAA..So similarities between Sligo and Donegal record as a county pre 1980s are very similar. Again I am not comparing the actual team which won in 90 Ulster and 92 All Ireland. Im comparing both counties record prior to the mid 80s.

The_Honeybadger · 03-05-2018 10:26PM

megadodge wrote: »

Sonny678, you could save yourself an awful, awful lot of typing if you just read my posts a little more carefully.

You don't seem to differentiate between 'successful' and 'better'. I do.

The 1950/51 Mayo teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.
The early 20th century Kildare teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.
The 1943/44 Roscommon teams were more successful than their modern counterparts.

Those are facts. I never claimed otherwise.

You seem to be of the opinion (note that word) that any team that won an All-Ireland in any decade is better than any modern team that hasn't. So, if we were magically able to transport both teams in a time machine, the older team would always beat the modern team? For your own credibility I really hope you don't believe that!

You spoke of how great the All-Ireland winning teams in the 1950s were. All of them! And how they are better than the 2014 All-Ireland winning Kerry team. Seriously?

Let's make a quick comparison. The winning times in the 1952 & 1956 Olympic 100m wouldn't even QUALIFY the winner for the 2016 Olympics. And by some considerable distance. But they were 'better' than people who would beat them by least 10 metres?

But of course that's a sport where progress can be proved - so it doesn't count! We're only interested in arguing over sports where nothing can be proven. What a bloody coincidence!

That’s a bit of a straw mans argument. Fitness, ball skills and tactics are now on another level entirely from 30 years ago, the game continually evolves and gets faster and more complex, although I suspect we are probably nearing the ceiling for further improvement at this stage.

That doesn’t mean that if Pat Spillane, Paudi O’Se, Jacko and Mikey Sheehy were around today and had the benefit of modern training and fitness they wouldn’t be great players. Of course they would, and most people would still consider that team to be the best ever. Any modern team would wipe them out using your hypothetical time machine, that doesn’t make them less great.

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 10:49PM

megadodge wrote:

Players that have played for Kerry since 2010 that in any right-minded person's head will be considered 'great' - Colin Cooper, Marc O'Se, Tomas O'Se, Declan O'Sullivan, Kieran Donanghy, Paul Galvin, Tom O'Sullivan and maybe even Aidan O'Mahoney.

All those players are 00s players they debuted in the 00s. Again can u name 1 player that has debuted for Kerry since 2010 who would be considered an all time great player, one of the best in his position ever. And don't say Paul Geaney, even Paul Geaney would admits he not up there with Cooper Fitzgerald Sheedy Long as kerry greats..T O se debuted in late 90s, Cooper in 2002, Donaghy in the mid 00s as well as D Sullivan and P Galvin. And Sullivan Mahony and O Se debuted in early 00s. They are players from the great kerry team of the 00s. Name one player that debuted in this decade who is an all time great kerry player

. T O Se M O Se Cooper are greats. Mahony and Sullivan are no way in the league of Sean Murphy John O Keefe Paudi O Se or Seamus Moyihan. No kerry person will agree will that. The 2014 team is one of Kerry's worst All Ireland wins since 1950..In any other county it would be great but a county that won 3 All Irelands in 50s 2 in row in 69 70 , a 4 in row in late 70s, a three in row in 80s and 4 All Irelands in 00s including a two in a row. No one in Kerry would place 2014 team above teams that won so many titles.

megadodge wrote:

It's kind of hard to replace these fellas - because they're great! So it's very hard to break into a team containing so many great players, meaning there's a much smaller chance of a new batch of great players coming on the scene until those lads retired.

Excuses excuses 2014 and 97 are kerry bottom two All Ireland winners . How come Cooper was a Kerry first team regular at 20, so was Paudi O Se, Pat Spillane, Mikey Sheedy, John O Keefe were first team regulars replacing greats like O Connell and players on a kerry team that had won 2 All Irelands in a row and 4 or 5 national league div 1 titles in a row , how come O Se and Spillane were winning All Irelands at 20. Moyihan made his debut at 19 , Fitzgerald was a first team regular at 19. Dara O Se was a first team regular at 20. Jack O Se was a first team regular at 21 and he had to break onto a team which had players like Pat Spillane, Paudi O Se, Mikey Sheedy , Ogie Moran , Ger Power and John Egan. Kerry might have great players in 2020s and a great team coming down the tracks but this has been a poor decade by Kerry standard. Defeat after defeat to Dublin and 1 All Ireland win is something that has not happened to Kingdom since 1900.

megadodge wrote:

How many 'great' players made their debut for Kerry after 1980 until 1987? At a stretch Tom Spillane.

That was the greatest team of all time an 8 time All Ireland winners. 2014 team a team that won 1 All Ireland is not comparable to 8 times All Ireland champions. Also Ambrose O Dovanan and Tommy Doyle all kerry All Ireland winning captains debuted after 1980.

megadodge wrote:

But they were replaced eventually. Be patient.

I see that you didnt address all the great teams in 90s Meath Cork Down Derry Donegal Galway all those teams or great teams in 00s. No mention of how many great teams there was in 90s and 00s and great gaa moments eg Clare beating kerry in 92, Armagh winning first title in 02, Westmeath winning first leinster ever in 00s. We havent had any great moments like that in decade. There was 1 great gaa moment year after year in every year from 1990 to the mid 00s.

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 11:07PM

]So its reaching a ceiling now. Just now. Im sure in the 2030s if a Donegal teams wins 2 in a row or a Kerry team wins 3 or 4 in a row in 2040s people in the future will look and say the current teams and players from Dublin and Mayo werent as fit and as good as players in 2030s or 40s. And you will be up arms saying no Brogan is better then future All Ireland winners . Its very convenient that you think its reached the ceiling now, I heard the same comments when Ulster teams in 90s and early 00s where changing the face of football. This is a highpoint for GAA. And I can ensure in 20 or 30 years you will get some supporters saying players from the this current decade are not as good as the players from their generation as gps and sport science improves. But people like me will tell them this Dublin team of this decade are one of the greatest ever. Because I don't think the latest means the greatest. Great players and teams have come from many different eras . If not why are the lions team of 70s or Munster team of 78 who beat the All Blacks celebrated. They have written songs and even plays about that game. But sure in your eyes it means nothing anything prior to 2010 is irrelevant.

The_Honeybadger · 03-05-2018 11:27PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

]So its reaching a ceiling now. Just now. Im sure in the 2030s if a Donegal teams wins 2 in a row or a Kerry team wins 3 or 4 in a row in 2040s people in the future will look and say the current teams and players from Dublin and Mayo werent as fit and as good as players in 2030s or 40s. And you will be up arms saying no Brogan is better then future All Ireland winners . Its very convenient that you think its reached the ceiling now, I heard the same comments when Ulster teams in 90s and early 00s where changing the face of football. This is a highpoint for GAA. And I can ensure in 20 or 30 years you will get some supporters saying players from the this current decade are not as good as the players from their generation as gps and sport science improves. But people like me will tell them this Dublin team of this decade are one of the greatest ever. Because I don't think the latest means the greatest. Great players and teams have come from many different eras . If not why are the lions team of 70s or Munster team of 78 who beat the All Blacks celebrated. They have written songs and even plays about that game. But sure in your eyes it means nothing anything prior to 2010 is irrelevant.

What I meant is that I don’t think it’s feasible for amateur players to get much fitter or the game to get much faster than it is today. Any further advancement in that respect will be minimal in my opinion, and we are already seeing a bit of a kickback from players who feel the demands of being a modern day inter county player are becoming completely unreasonable.

I’m actually agreeing with you, great players and great teams should be measured in their own era.

I’m a kerryman btw and have no interest in erasing everything pre 2010

Sonny678 · 03-05-2018 11:28PM

mickeyk wrote:

Iâ€™m a kerryman btw and have no interest in erasing everything pre 2010

Good Im glad to hear it.

Sonny678 · 04-05-2018 12:55AM

megadodge wrote:

What an utter load of tosh!!

megadodge wrote:

You're comparing that Donegal team to the current Sligo team in terms of their relative standing? A Donegal team crammed with players from two separate All-Ireland winning U21 teams? A Donegal team that were Ulster champions two years previously and gave a great Meath team what Liam Hayes described at the time 'the toughest game he ever played in'? I personally thought Donegal left that game behind them.

megadodge wrote:

And you're comparing that team's standing to Sligo????

Donegal did not leave semi final in 1990 behind . Meath won by 8 points in second gear. How did Donegal leave a semi final behind them when they lost by 8 points. Donegal couldnt contain the Meath full forwars line of O Rourke Stafford and Flynn , as Flynn ran riot in the second half scoring 2 -3. Meath team were a better team then that Donegal team. That Meath team played in 5 All Ireland finals ( including a replay ) in 5 years. That Donegal team played in 1 All Ireland final. That Meath team had some great defenders eg O Connell voted on the team of the Millenium. O Malley Harnan and the best full back of the 80 Lyons..It had the best midfield partnership of its generation in Hayes and McEntee. And the best full forward line of the last 35 years and the second best full forward line in the game ever ( Only Egan Liston and Sheedy were better) The full forward line of O Rourke Stafford Flynn.

In 1990 Meath were still the best team in the land . Cork were lucky Harnan was injured for the final. Becuase no way would Culloty or Fahy hit those points from half back line with Harnan there. I can never remeber centre field having so room to knock over points when Harnan played. In 5 games in Croke in All Irelands and national league semi final Meath lost once to Cork in late 80s early 90s . Meath were much the better team with better players. From 1987 to 1991 once Lyons O Malley O Connell Harnan McEntee Staff Flynn and O Rourke were on the field Meath couldnt be beaten. The loses in 89 v Dublin was due to Lyons been injured. No Dublin player scored in the square a winning goal like McNally did in 89 when lyons around. The lose of Harnan ( he was injured) in 90 was pivotal to Meath. And the loss of O Malley ( also injured) in 91 final meant Down ran riot on the left hand side of the defence , something that never happened when 1988 footballer of the year Robbie O Malley was playing. Michael Muiritigh says O Malley is the greatest corner back he ever saw play. Donegal were not good enough or ready to win Sam in 1990. It was a great learning experience in 1990 coming up against the best team of the era. Donegal were ready and good enough to win in 1992.

Sonny678 · 04-05-2018 12:59AM

megadodge wrote:

It's kind of hard to replace these fellas - because they're great! So it's very hard to break into a team containing so many great players, meaning there's a much smaller chance of a new batch of great players coming on the scene until those lads retired.

megadodge wrote:

How many 'great' players made their debut for Kerry after 1980 until 1987? At a stretch Tom Spillane.

Some Kerry players who debuted 1980 to 87

1 Tommy Doyle Kerry All Ireland winning captain , 3 time All star winner

2 Ambrose O Dovanan Kerry All Ireland winning captain, formed the best midfield partnership in the countru in mid 80s with Jack O se

3 Ger Lynch One of the best wing backs in the mid 80s, a better player then Aidan O Mahony or any other current kerry defenders

4 Tom Spillane 2 time All star winner another top class defender .

5 And Finally this player debuted in 1987 you might have heard of him he was called Maurice Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald is possibly one of the most talented players ever. Considered in kerry and throughout the country as an all time great and considered in the kingdom as one of their greatest players ever. Only Cooper or Sheedy would comparable to Fitz in the last 60 years.

Boom__Boom · 04-05-2018 05:57PM

titan18 wrote: »

How many Cork players from last year's stats play for Nemo, cos none of them played for Cork so far this year cos of the AI clubs. I'd imagine you might have similar cases for Slaughtneil, Corofin and Moorefield.

Of the 2 sides in the final 6 Corofin players were asked to join the Galway squad and 3 declined the offer while in Cork 4 Nemo players were asked and 1 declined. The fact that out of 10 players asked from the 2 finalists only 4 agreed to join the intercounty panels says a fair bit.

megadodge · 07-05-2018 08:37PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

You are on about fitness how fast someone can run.

Fitness and speed are two different things.

And no, I'm not on about fitness. I used the 100m as a very well-known example of the progression of standards in sports.

Of course, they're sports where proof can be measured. Sports where you cannot definitively prove the increase in standards are what people who live in a timewarp love to debate.

Some people think that because there is better sports science today, players have less body fat means they are better players.

I'm not one of those people.

inate football ability, technique, football skills , character and temperament are all skills that u eitheir have or dont.

Again, you're proving how little you know about success in sports. 'Natural talent' and 'inate ability' are complete myths. There have been countless scientific studies conducted and numerous books written on the amount of PRACTICE required to reach the elite levels in sport. 10,000 hours is regarded by those who have actually studied the issue as the amount of PRACTICE one needs to reach elite level.

A perfect example would be one of my all-time favourite sportsmen growing up (despite the fact that he was a nutter) - Alex Higgins. Often referred to as 'the most naturally talented player ever to play snooker' which of course is utterly unprovable. The problem is – Alex Higgins played snooker for NINE HOURS A DAY, EVERY DAY in his formative years. Some 'natural talent' that is.

I would advise you to read either of the following books (among many others) to educate yourself on the above, but I know you won't, because then you'd have to re-think a lot of things you have been lecturing people about. They certainly opened my eyes.

Bounce: The Myth of Talent. The Power of Practice by Matthew Syed

The Talent Code: Greatness isn't Born. It's Grown. By Daniel Coyle

megadodge · 07-05-2018 08:42PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

In soccer Pele is still considered the greatest soccer player ever.

You keep doing this. Stating an opinion of yours as some sort of corroborated fact. Can you actually prove that statement? No you can't! But it doesn't stop you stating it of course.

Funny how you fail to mention either Messi or Ronoldo? Ever hear of those two?

If you said to an English supporters that John Stone was a better defender then Bobby Moore they would laugh in your face.

And they'd be right.

If you said to an English/Wales supporter that Carlton Palmer was a better midfielder than Gareth Bale they would laugh in your face.

See, two can play that stupid game!

If we take your way of thinking then you must consider Anthony Joshua a better heavyweight boxer then Muhammad Ali. There is no boxing expert in the world who would agree. Joe Lewis hasnt fought for 80 years yet he would be considered a greater heavyweight boxer then any boxer in this decade.

As a person who could legitimately be considered a boxing expert (or near to it) I'd agree with the others. Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight of all time. Yet again you're making assumptions.

Joe Louis is one of my all-time favourite boxers and a true legend, but there are quite a lot of modern heavies I'd back to beat him. I can go off on a tangent (like you do) and discuss it, but only if you want me to.

Ring is considered the greatest hurler of all time.

There you go again.

Ever hear of DJ Carey or Henry Shefflin?

in soccer great teams and player pre 2000 are still considered the benchmark

So the Barcelona team of 2005-2015 don't match up?

What a surprise?

megadodge · 07-05-2018 08:45PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

If you said in 1987 in 5 years that a team that had 4 provicial titles had never played in a final and had never won a game in Croke Park in the championship at senior level would be champions in 5 years time u would have been laughed at. If you said to any Donegal supporter 5 years before they won Sam in 92 that they would win Sam in 5 years time, they would have said you were insane. .

Well, the miserable pessimists like you that think all is doom and gloom would think that.

On the other hand, in 1987 Donegal were just after winning their second All-Ireland U21 title in five years. They blew their 1983 Senior All-Ireland semi-final against Galway. In the mid to late 1980s there was a definite 'underachievers' aura about Donegal. The general opinion on them by those who knew their football was if they ever got it right they would be a very dangerous team. That opinion was proven correct.

Now go back again and compare that with the current Sligo team.

megadodge · 07-05-2018 08:46PM

mickeyk wrote: »

What I meant is that I don’t think it’s feasible for amateur players to get much fitter or the game to get much faster than it is today. Any further advancement in that respect will be minimal in my opinion, and we are already seeing a bit of a kickback from players who feel the demands of being a modern day inter county player are becoming completely unreasonable.

I’m actually agreeing with you, great players and great teams should be measured in their own era.

I’m a kerryman btw and have no interest in erasing everything pre 2010

So you're in agreement that the game has advanced. That's what I've been saying all along.

However, Sonny678 and his ilk disagree. They're the ones who constantly harp on about how much greater teams in the past were than current ones. I, on the other hand, have never claimed all these various teams in the past were not great. I don't believe in putting great sports people down. They did things that ordinary people don't do and should be lauded for it.

But I do believe the standards are much higher now than in the 1950s for example, an era that Sonny678 was full of teams better than Kerry 2014.