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The demise of the small/medium sized Irish town

24

Comments

  • #32
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    LirW wrote: »
    They don't die out, it's just the proportion of Polish people getting higher.

    What is that even supposed to mean?


  • #33
    Daisy78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Daisy78


    doolox wrote: »
    I remember working with a woman whose family has a farm and were willing to give her a site to build a house on. Because she was not a farmer she was refused planning permission and had to buy a smaller house in a housing estate near her work. The house cost so much that she was forced to work full-time to pay off the much bigger mortgage on the much smaller house that she was forced to buy instead of the house she wanted to build on her parents land.

    The resentment of being forced to live in a smaller house and a much dearer house was evident to all who had to work with her. Her productivity and joy of working were non existent.

    The sudden closing off of one off housing probably has had similar effects on many working people, forcing many otherwise well-off people to work longer hours in jobs they hate in order to subscribe to the dictates of the planning authorities in some counties.

    But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.


  • #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lack of investment is the big one here. Jobs are being created in many places in the countryside, but they're often jobs that the locals aren't skilled to do, or else they're low-salaried manufacturing jobs with little upward movement.

    I live in a mid sized town, and while there are quite a few large companies here, most of the employees are coming from abroad. They're specialists for the most part. At the same time, these companies have been in the town for over two decades, but there are no educational courses to train locals for those jobs (or incentives for the companies to hire locally... we have quite a large Indian population of software engineers). Instead, the politicians talk about some major expansion, with loads of new jobs, that the locals themselves are mostly not going to get.

    My hometown is dying in terms of Irish people my own age (40) or below. I returned to Ireland late last year, and there are very few people I know remaining, with most moving to Dublin or abroad. The town is booming in terms of people... just very few of them are Irish, and the locals are either the very young or the old. But, hey! we should embrace our multicultural environment.

    I have two Business degrees (and heaps of experience), and couldn't find work in the area. All the jobs relate to hospitality, pharmaceuticals, or tech-science. The remaining jobs are the basics like working in a pub (not terribly useful for someone like me with a shaking disorder), or low paid part-time work in the cafes nearby.

    This town and many others like it need serious investment and job creation, in non-specialised fields. There is so little administrative work here. Everything to do with operations is Dublin based. In fact, most things are Dublin based... which is what past governments have set out to do.


  • #35
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,605 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    They're not commuting from abroad presumably.
    They're locals as well and spend their wages where they live.


  • #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kneemos wrote: »
    They're not commuting from abroad presumably.
    They're locals as well and spend their wages where they live.

    :facepalm:

    Never mind. Some people just don't get it.


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  • #37
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    kneemos wrote: »
    They're not commuting from abroad presumably.
    They're locals as well and spend their wages where they live.

    The league of gentlemen mentality is strong for some unfortunately! At best they are the wrong sort of locals.


  • #38
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Daisy78 wrote: »
    But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

    So no one is allowed to live in the countryside only farmers?
    Right.


  • #39
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »
    Reliance on cars. Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.

    People who are working see folk all day every day. Seek some peace then. Nothin wrong with cars.


  • #40
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    There's a reason "Tipp" rhymes with "kip".


  • #41
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    For some reason the concept of the village is an anathema for most Irish people, for a nation which is supposedly so convivial and communautaire the obsession with living in an isolated white low box is curious.

    The Irish are those things; when it is their own family and friends. But they are poor at welcoming strangers/blow ins etc into a village community.

    Also folk want new houses in attractive countryside and have no interest in the local community,


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  • #42
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Daisy78 wrote: »
    But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

    In some areas you are not allowed to buy or build unless you have a viable, real connection with the area and/or are about to take up work there. It is specified on ads.


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    2. Loss of key major employers/ industry. The loss of the sugar beet factories in the 1980s/90s effectively decimated towns like Tuam and Thurles as a huge proportion of these towns’ wealth was dependent on these industries, workers would support local shops and businesses etc (the “multiplier” effect). Also the failed IDA policy in the 1960s to 1980s of trying to lure branch plant assembly factories down to rural towns backfired badly as they simply upped sticks and abandoned the towns they were in after their tax breaks ran out. Again decimating their host towns economically.

    Major industry these days wants to be located in major urban areas close to airports, motorways and skilled and diverse young labour force, not in a midlands town with poor roads (and back the 1970s and early 80s for those too young to remember) a 3rd world telephone system.
    I wonder what you think a town like Tuam should look like? You make it sound like they stopped all the clocks when the sugar factory closed and it has been in decline since. It isn't. The population is growing, it has a motorway and less than an hour from two airports. There is some pretty hi tech stuff happening in Tuam in the likes of Valeo (they are recruiting:
    http://www.valeovision.com/recruitment)
    What should Tuam or any of these towns be doing differently?
    What are you comparing them to - cities many times their size?


  • #44
    Daisy78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Daisy78


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Daisy78 wrote: »
    But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

    So no one is allowed to live in the countryside only farmers?
    Right.

    It would seem not, going by the fabulous bungalow blitz we have had to endure In this country over the last 30 odd years.


  • #45
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,580 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Anyone remember how decentralisation went ?

    Civil servants were staying away in droves.


    So yeah , that could have provided a boost to the local economy.

    In theory better interwebs means more people could telecommute and should be cheaper for startups but in practice not so much.


  • #46
    Daisy78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Daisy78


    Deleted User wrote: »
    JupiterKid wrote: »
    2. Loss of key major employers/ industry. The loss of the sugar beet factories in the 1980s/90s effectively decimated towns like Tuam and Thurles as a huge proportion of these towns’ wealth was dependent on these industries, workers would support local shops and businesses etc (the “multiplier” effect). Also the failed IDA policy in the 1960s to 1980s of trying to lure branch plant assembly factories down to rural towns backfired badly as they simply upped sticks and abandoned the towns they were in after their tax breaks ran out. Again decimating their host towns economically.

    Major industry these days wants to be located in major urban areas close to airports, motorways and skilled and diverse young labour force, not in a midlands town with poor roads (and back the 1970s and early 80s for those too young to remember) a 3rd world telephone system.
    I wonder what you think a town like Tuam should look like? You make it sound like they stopped all the clocks when the sugar factory closed and it has been in decline since. It isn't. The population is growing, it has a motorway and less than an hour from two airports. There is some pretty hi tech stuff happening in Tuam in the likes of Valeo (they are recruiting:
    http://www.valeovision.com/recruitment)
    What should Tuam or any of these towns be doing differently?
    What are you comparing them to - cities many times their size?

    Tuam probably isn't one of the towns that would fall into this category though, it is a commuter town for Galway and that is a big factor in its sustainability.


  • #47
    divillybit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭divillybit


    Daisy78 wrote: »
    But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

    Im from a rural background, and there are very few young full time farmers...farming doesent pay well at all.. Id never give up my day job to be a full time farmer and Im very interested in farming. But what im getting at is if planning permission is only being granted to people with a connection to the locality then its no wonder rural Ireland is declining. Id never go build on a greenfield site near my homeplace as self builds are too expensive I think , especially because of development levies and connecting to mains water. My local county town of Roscommon was hit hard enough by the recession but its doing alright now again.


  • #48
    buried
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,980 ✭✭✭buried


    The big huge f**king houses with the big huge useless Dermot Bannon windows are going up all over the place again outside the little demising towns. Hold on to your cocks.

    Bullet The Blue Shirts



  • #49
    SirChenjin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭SirChenjin


    Graces7 wrote: »
    The Irish are those things; when it is their own family and friends.But they are poor at welcoming strangers/blow ins etc into a village community.

    Also folk want new houses in attractive countryside and have no interest in the local community,

    Not in my experience.

    And sometimes people -whether native or strangers- choose to live reclusive lives.


  • #50
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,097 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Why is living reclusive a bad thing? If i could afford it, I'd be living by myself in the middle of the country, as long as it had decent enough internet. People are dicks, they're fake and all they want to talk about is what x person did, who y is shagging, they're always in the same bars with the same people drinking the same pi$s and talking the same sh!te, being nosey and interfering with other peoples lives. I hate that, I want no part of it. Rumours and gossip making people do and say things they shouldn't be doing or saying. My life is no one else's business. I don't care what mary from up the road is doing, or who Mike from over yonder is riding.

    I want to live in a rural house with no one near me for not just that reason though. People living in the city are missing out on one of the most amazing free sights in the world. The night sky. With all that light pollution, you just don't get to see, in person, the views I get when I arrive home from work at 11pm. Little to no light pollution, and suddenly you can see the millions of stars up there, compared to the odd few bright ones you may get in towns and cities. Couple that with Google Night Sky (on the lowest brightness) and you start seeing things that you've only heard or read about.

    And yes, I will drive that extra bit to go to Aldi/Lidl/Tesco/wherever, because why wouldn't I? The government takes nearly half of what I earn, so why can't I make the other half last longer by shopping cheaper, leaving more for me to enjoy my life with, instead of being stuck in the grind of life that the Government love. I will shop online if it's cheaper. I'll buy digitally if it's cheaper. Not my fault shops can't keep up with the prices, like us they want the cheapest option available, but it still can't beat online. We need to move with the times, develop ideas and amenities that people will use locally, instead of setting up the same crap everywhere. What worked years ago won't work now, and that's what people are not willing to accept. Times change, we need to change with them.


  • #51
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    One solution would be to cut off the internet everywhere outside the m50


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  • #52
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,097 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    One solution would be to cut off the internet everywhere outside the m50

    One solution to make people hate Dublin even more?


  • #53
    SirChenjin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭SirChenjin


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    Why is living reclusive a bad thing? If i could afford it, I'd be living by myself in the middle of the country, as long as it had decent enough internet. People are dicks, they're fake and all they want to talk about is what x person did, who y is shagging, they're always in the same bars with the same people drinking the same pi$s and talking the same sh!te, being nosey and interfering with other peoples lives. I hate that, I want no part of it. Rumours and gossip making people do and say things they shouldn't be doing or saying. My life is no one else's business. I don't care what mary from up the road is doing, or who Mike from over yonder is riding.

    I want to live in a rural house with no one near me for not just that reason though. People living in the city are missing out on one of the most amazing free sights in the world. The night sky. With all that light pollution, you just don't get to see, in person, the views I get when I arrive home from work at 11pm.

    Oh no, that wasn't my point at all! All for it, I am.
    I do think saying that Irish people don't welcome blow ins, is quite a sweeping statement. And if one chooses to live reclusively, perhaps the community is not getting a chance to show their welcome. That's all.


  • #54
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,097 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    It's all good Sir. I'm 35 and live a reclusive style life. I did the whole work in a city, proper job (Garda), mortgage, relationship thing for 10 years. I gave it all up about 20 months ago and started working for me. Sold the house, moved home to help the parents in their golden years, ended it with the 7 year girlfriend as she was on about having kids (she's now married with a kid, so worked out for everyone). My experience in the Gardai has ruined alcohol for me, which is not a bad thing, but i've no interest in drinking anymore, so that basically excludes me from most events (similarly I can't stand being around drunk people when i'm sober).

    The reclusive lifestyle is great in comparison. No one to answer to, do what I want with my life, still enjoy life as if I was still a teenager that didn't discover drink yet, no major responsibilities... It's great! Mentally the best i've been in about 8 years!


  • #55
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,662 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »
    Reliance on cars. Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.

    Perhaps 'never' is bad, but living in the countryside and being free of the crowding of towns and urban centers, is healthier. Urban living isn't healthier, certainly. http://www.bbc.com/news/health-38520092 . More pollution -> more pulmonary issues, higher risk of dementia, more accidents, more crime, ...

    It's a tradeoff of health vs. easier access to stuff - people, things. I prefer more health, personally.


  • #56
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,097 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    True, I do feel healthier since I went back to the country. And due to that, i've been making healthier choices also. When I lived in the city outskirts (Ferrybank in Kilkenny/Waterford, so basically in the city), there were no less than 38 places willing to send food to me. At one stage, I was eating a take away twice a day on days off. Now, there is 1 chipper that will maybe deliver if they have someone to do it.

    Towns are dying out, but that's just a sign of the times I believe. There is no need for them really, as most people are within an hour or less to the nearest large town/city, and most people have cars. Small towns and villages can't compete with that, so they have to come up with other ways to keep the people out there/visiting. Tourism, as mentioned, is the best way! Food then!


  • #57
    Dr Turk Turkelton
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    It's all good Sir. I'm 35 and live a reclusive style life. I did the whole work in a city, proper job (Garda), mortgage, relationship thing for 10 years. I gave it all up about 20 months ago and started working for me. Sold the house, moved home to help the parents in their golden years, ended it with the 7 year girlfriend as she was on about having kids (she's now married with a kid, so worked out for everyone). My experience in the Gardai has ruined alcohol for me, which is not a bad thing, but i've no interest in drinking anymore, so that basically excludes me from most events (similarly I can't stand being around drunk people when i'm sober).

    The reclusive lifestyle is great in comparison. No one to answer to, do what I want with my life, still enjoy life as if I was still a teenager that didn't discover drink yet, no major responsibilities... It's great! Mentally the best i've been in about 8 years!

    Your girlfriend was seven?


  • #58
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    SirChenjin wrote: »
    Not in my experience.

    And sometimes people -whether native or strangers- choose to live reclusive lives.

    Not necessarily reclusive if they do not involve with a local village though; if they have their own circle of friends elsewhere and are mobile?

    And maybe you are reading private as reclusive? Big difference.


  • #59
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,097 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »
    Your girlfriend was seven?

    Pretty sure i left out the old part to make it less obvious... :pac:


  • #60
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    SirChenjin wrote: »
    Oh no, that wasn't my point at all! All for it, I am.
    I do think saying that Irish people don't welcome blow ins, is quite a sweeping statement. And if one chooses to live reclusively, perhaps the community is not getting a chance to show their welcome. That's all.

    Ah I see! But I was saying that it can in a very small village etc be hard for newbies to be welcomed. Takes a very long time too..

    And each place is different. So yes a sweeping statement which can be qualified later. Maybe;)

    And you only need one or two folk... Unless you are a very active eg church member of have immediately apparent and needed skills

    This kind of reserve in a small place is a good thing too. When you forge relationships slowly you win and give trust that will stay with you forever. But at first may be quieter. And then you find ways to give quietly even when seeming reclusive .


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  • #61
    OneEightSeven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭OneEightSeven
    MEGA - Make Éire Great Again


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    Why is living reclusive a bad thing? If i could afford it, I'd be living by myself in the middle of the country, as long as it had decent enough internet. People are dicks, they're fake and all they want to talk about is what x person did, who y is shagging, they're always in the same bars with the same people drinking the same pi$s and talking the same sh!te, being nosey and interfering with other peoples lives. I hate that, I want no part of it. Rumours and gossip making people do and say things they shouldn't be doing or saying. My life is no one else's business. I don't care what mary from up the road is doing, or who Mike from over yonder is riding.

    I want to live in a rural house with no one near me for not just that reason though. People living in the city are missing out on one of the most amazing free sights in the world. The night sky. With all that light pollution, you just don't get to see, in person, the views I get when I arrive home from work at 11pm. Little to no light pollution, and suddenly you can see the millions of stars up there, compared to the odd few bright ones you may get in towns and cities. Couple that with Google Night Sky (on the lowest brightness) and you start seeing things that you've only heard or read about.

    And yes, I will drive that extra bit to go to Aldi/Lidl/Tesco/wherever, because why wouldn't I? The government takes nearly half of what I earn, so why can't I make the other half last longer by shopping cheaper, leaving more for me to enjoy my life with, instead of being stuck in the grind of life that the Government love. I will shop online if it's cheaper. I'll buy digitally if it's cheaper. Not my fault shops can't keep up with the prices, like us they want the cheapest option available, but it still can't beat online. We need to move with the times, develop ideas and amenities that people will use locally, instead of setting up the same crap everywhere. What worked years ago won't work now, and that's what people are not willing to accept. Times change, we need to change with them.

    Living in one-off housing is fine, just as long as yous aren't subsidised, which yous are, very heavily. If rural-dwellers weren't subsidised, you guys would be living like the Amish. Everything in the country is subsidised by Dublin and Cork.

    One off housing is the reason why Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in the world for broadband because we have to subsidised the numerous telephone polls feeding their homes and we would have cheaper electricity bills if it wasn't for the same reason.

    The National Broadband Plan (NBP) should be cancelled, it's an absolute farce the government is considering rolling out fibre optic broadband to one-off housing which makes up 40% of our population, fibre broadband should be used as an incentive to migrate people to nearby urban areas, so we cen bring back live to villages and towns across Ireland and more passengers for Irish rail who require a large subvention just to keep its line open.

    They only banned planning permission for one-off housing earlier this year after Eir dropped out of the NBP, but they still left a local clause allowing locals to build on their relatives land and exactly the problem, absolute gutlessness to tackle a problem because it might lose FG/FF votes to parish pump gombeens in rural areas.


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